Don't want to start anything

Discussion in 'General Training' started by iceman0625, Jul 29, 2005.

  1. navigator

    navigator New Member

    Well, this is surprising.  I'm honestly asking for your latest, most up-to-date training advice, and now you don't want to share. [​IMG]

    After all the threads you've posted in and all the debating with everyone here, I would have thought you'd jump at the chance to step up to the plate ...
     
  2. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Vince

    That is not fair [​IMG] why must we do all the work :confused:

    Can you not summarize ina few lines what your system is all about?

    Surely it can't be that difficult, many of us are at work and already struggle to debate your issues as they are quite long!

    Come on, be fair [​IMG]
     
  3. Heavy Duty dude

    Heavy Duty dude New Member

    Vince,

    If you understand HST and DC you quickly realize that they both work on the same principle, which is to focus on the load and frequency more than on the volume.

    What does Dante say? He says that he doesn't care how you get stronger as long as you get stronger as fast as possible. Whether you use rest pauses or whatever he doesn't care. The goal is to increase the load quick.

    So HST and DC don't disagree. It's just that with HST you decondition so you can grow with the same load several times, while with DC you don't decondition so you have to increase the load. And the volume is almost irrelevant. In DC you do a total of about 15 reps max : 6-8 reps the first set, 4-5 the second, 2-3 the third.

    Your system seems radically different, from what I've understood at least. You focus on DOMS. Now maybe there's some value to your system.. maybe when there are microtrauma on the muscle it's easier to make MORE microtrauma. I don't really know but I guess it is not completly irrational to think that it might be the case.. if something is already damaged in the body, it usually takes a smaller stimulus to continue to damage it..

    The thing is, and this has been raised by a lot of people: how do you keep training so much to maintain a lot of doms without injuring yourself? It's still a mystery to everyone.. Do you use special techniques, like lots of warmups, active recovery, high reps to have the healing effect of lactic acid on the tendons.

    Also how do you avoid losing strength by training so much? It is irrationnal to think that the average trainee will keep its strength for long like that.

    Those are the real concrete questions concerning your system that everyone would like to have answers to.
     
  4. No need, here ya go Nav and Fausto and anyone else who is interested.

    Mikeynov's synopsis of Vince's DOMs training with Vince's additions

    Also
    These should give you enough information to understand Vince's DOMs theory.
     
  5. wrestlingmark

    wrestlingmark New Member

    HAHAHA! Vince sounds like.......well, everyone that I've ever talked to, outside this message board! Trying to explain HST's principles to anyone that is bigger than me(as of now)....is quite hard, but, I feel great to know that I have a family of HST'ers here :D
     
  6. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    HST: If there's a problem with gaining size; eat more protein(increase total calories in general), alter the exercises used(normally move from something like leg press to deadlift, for ex), decondition longer/more effectively.

    DOMs: If there's a problem with gaining size;then do more sets/less sets - of course you don't know which, change exercises, spend more time in gym, tinker with each reps, intensity, get a better pump . . .
     
  7. xahrx

    xahrx New Member

    It's odd how long threads like this go on. I didn' see this question posed to Vince:

    Vince, what is the HST routine?

    Answer: Nothing. No such thing exists. There's essentially nothing new about HST except it's explanatory power. It tells you why a lot of the things that work, work. In so doing, it also suggests some guidelines for making workouts more productive by adhering to certain principles.

    There's nothing magic or even necessary about a weight increase every workout, however eventually the weight does have to increase. This could be done three times a week, two times a week, once a week, whatever. The weight has to go up is the basic point. All HST principles do is give an answer as to why.

    There's nothing special about the rep ranges, no matter what they are. They make accomadating and tracking volume easier so at least one more variable in the routine is controlled for over time, end of their significance.

    Nothing magic about frequency too. The more frequently you can train, the more frequently you can apply a growth stimulous to your muscles at a given volume of work, the better. Less frequency will work, more will work, with varying trade-offs and benefits to each approach.

    Nothing special about taking a breather and resting every once in a while. People have been training that way for a while. Except now that the research has been pulled together there's an explanation as to why this is a good thing to do.

    I've read a lot of your posts. You seem to say two contradictory things: that there is no established scientific link between DOMS and hypertrophy, yet DOMS is necessary for hypertrophy. As I understood it the basics behind just what the heck DOMS is are still pretty vague. There's no way someone can make a positive link between the two things absent at least few studies that looked at those particular variables, preferably directly but also indirectly, in a one causes the other scenario.

    Someone who wants to get big quick and fast is usually a newbie, and granting he can control his diet he will get bigger than he was pretty fast with even an inefficient, all over the place workout. Too many people have had success in applying HST principles to their workouts to dismiss the ideas behind it. To many people seem to take your approach, which seems to boil down to "feel it the next day" and "constantly tinker until you find something that works" and make little to no progress to ignore. Granted some do great, but we need consistent results across a broad range of people for something to become a principle.

    I'd wager if you tracked their progress over time that their greatest gains would reflect the times when their diets were spot on and their training approach adhered as closely as possible to HST principles.

    The science HST is based on is pretty much laid out for all to see. Study upon study upon study have been quoted and cited in these boards, many full texts available here and else where. Granted there could be and most likely are other factors involved in muscle growth. HST was never meant to be all encompassing. It's merely a statement of what we know now with some good degree of certainty about some of what's going on inside our bodies.
     
  8. Vince Basile

    Vince Basile New Member

    Nope, I didn't say either of those things. I could care less what the scientific community has found because they are not interested in bodybuilding. I know what I have discovered. There is a definite link between being able to sustain DOMS in a target muscle and rapid growth. The test of this truth is simple. Get your biceps sore and keep them sore. If you can, which most cannot, then you should grow rapidly. I assume that trainees have a calorie surplus. Those who want to have rows of abs should take up another sport.
    In the past I have had problems with connective tissue. I assumed that rapid growth was possible in the muscles but the adaptation lagged in the connective tissue. I was reverse engineering from injuries to elbows and Achilles tendons. In recent months I have managed to avoid serious injury in the elbows while training the triceps as heavy as I can. My connective tissue in the triceps has been chronically tender and I have to do several light warmup sets to enable this exercise to be completed. After about 5 high rep light, progressive sets the pain mostly goes away.
    What I conclude now is that it doesn't seem right that connective tissue would adapt at a different rate from the muscle. Both should adapt together. This is what I have found. To avoid injuries you have to make sure you don't do things that cause injuries. Avoid ballistic movements and do not put the elbows against any pads while exercising. Warm the muscle up thoroughly using light weights and high reps.
    Nope, that is not at all what I would claim. If you have a problem gaining size in a muscle then train with many sets using the maximum weight for your target reps. I recommend trying to stay over 8 reps. 10 is still a good number. If growth does not follow then try changing the exercise. If growth still doesn't follow then try a new sport.
    If you can pump your muscle up larger than ever then it will likely grow if DOMS is there the next day. I have found lately that training every 3rd day is about right. What I do is weigh the various feedback mechanisms I sense in the body. DOMS, pump, connective tissue pain, general feeling of well being. When the muscles are growing the feeling in the body is quite euphoric. The diet seems to take care of itself. When I am growing I just get hungrier.
    I thought that the more science one knew the more exact the training would be. If HST isn't precise then the science behind it must be lacking. No wonder there is so much confusion on this site.
     
  9. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

     
  10. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Vince misses every point
     
  11. xahrx

    xahrx New Member

    I have.  Didn't work.  As with HST, nothing new about shooting for DOMS, or 'feeling' the workout.

    HST did work.

    Connective tissue and muscle tissue serve different functions and have different forces applied to them.  They may or may not develop at the same rate as each other.  The experience of many steroid users alone tearing connective tissues because their muscle strength developed much quicker than their connective tissue strength shows they can and do develop at different rates.

    Are you weeding out problem cases by simply not training them?

    Depends on how much you know.  The presence of unknown variables doesn't negate the properties of known variables.  Not to mention if you told that to a doctor, a practitioner whose field is heavily informed by science, he'd let you know in science there are only varying degrees of certainty.  This is what's known with a reasonable certainty about causing hypertrophy:

    You need to damage the muscle by lifting a load.

    The more often you can apply the stimulus the better.

    Muscles develop a resistance to being damaged by the same stimulus which means the weight needs to be increased as often as possible.

    At a certain point gains will plateau because of strength limitations and other factors.

    Within that there will be a lot of wiggle room depending on the individual.  Some people are capable of doing super volume levels all the time, some aren't.  Some add strength easy, some don't.  Some have issues with connective tissue, some don't.  With HST Haycock pulled together a lot of research about the muscle fibers themselves.  That doesn't change the fact that those muscle fibers exist in a complex system, the body, and any number of other factors within that body can affect the growth of muscle fibers.

    Even out of a few simple, known principles amazing amounts of variety can result.  Look at life itself.  DNA doesn't differ that much between mammals, but we all look a lot different than one another, even though we all share some common features like symmetry along our long axis.  HST routines are the same.  Despite the amazing amount of varience these things will remain the same:

    It will incorporate an increase in the weight as often as can be accomodated with other variables like volume in mind.

    It will progress in a linear fashion from that point to an end point.

    It will allow for as high a frequency as possible, once again accomodating other variables.

    It will involved a strategic pull back from weight work to allow the musles to decondition.

    Some people may find better results upping volume and cutting frequency.  Some find it better to skip the high rep work and go straight into the heavier portion of the cycle.  Some only increase the weight every other workout.
    The variance allowed within a set of principles is expected.  It's caused by factors we aren't certain about but which still affect our overall goal of hypertrophy.  However, the effects of what we don't know don't negate the effects of what we do know.  They just allow for a degree of uncertainty and thus variation in the importance of any one HST principle over another.
     
  12. Vince Basile

    Vince Basile New Member

    At any one time all of us are at certain points on the hypertrophy journey. It is always difficult to make any muscle grow more. What I have done is virtually ignored other muscles and trained only my arms. This has allowed me to find a method that keeps stimulating the muscles. Do my arms keep growing? Nope. They reach points and stay the same. I have tender elbows and a torn biceps. Those problems have prevented me from training too heavy and too frequently. I believe my general approach is about as good as it gets. I am aware of how much hard, heavy training further growth requires. There is no variation regarding principles. If the principles are wrong there can be no growth. Period. That much is certain. I doubt there is an uncertainty factor in hypertrophy training. The more I read this forum the less I see any principles at all. What I see are individuals failing to grow rapidly and then having to experiment with things to see if that works. HST shouldn't default into trial and error.
     
  13. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Where have you seen individuals here who have failed to grow rapidly? What is your definition of "rapid growth"?? Have you even read the HST results thread? I'd say a lot of the results seen in there are quite rapid, especially when the bulk of the people here are training naturally.
     
  14. Vince Basile

    Vince Basile New Member

    If readers are making satisfactory gains with HST then all I can say is congratulations. Whatever is the point of discussing hypertrophy if you are already growing steadily? When that growth stops you might be interested in what I have written.
     
  15. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    The scientific community relevant to this discussion is interested in hypertrophy - skeletal muscle growth. Some of this research stems from a bodybuilding interest, some from medical - Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy for example.


    Any lack of interest in "bodybuilding" would seem to give scientific experiments mroe credibility as they lack a conflict of interest.

    Have you actually done basic physiology @ university? You know that connective tissue and and the muscle have different contraction properties etc yeh...?
     
  16. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    When that growth stops, it obviously means that you have plateaued and need to take an SD. Really, you can just taking a few weeks off means that you can start growing again when you begin HST once again... I don't understand how that would invalidate HST's usefullnes, but that seems to be what you are saying.

    And you do realize that eventually a person will no longer be able to grow - there is a such thing as a genetic max, after which you turn to drugs, but even then, you will eventually reach a point where you can no longer grow. It isn't like you can keep growing indefinitely.
     
  17. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    1. Good luck with big mass gains then.

    2. Ok, so you're not growing . . . why should I train using your method then?

    3. Ok, so you're in pain . . . why should I train using your method then?

    4. How can you honestly believe that your general approach is as good as it gets, taking into account that you aren't growing and are injured . . .?

    5. You aren't growing. You should vary your principles.
     
  18. Very very very little of the research has been with bodyduilding interests in mind.

    Not saying they don't mimic what the BB community is doing but their interest surely isn't BB per se.
     
  19. xahrx

    xahrx New Member

    No, it isn't. In fact with a good diet and a routine that adheres to HST principles and yourown personal requirements regarding volume, intensity, etc., it's rather easy to keep growth coming.

    So you are not causing any muscle growth, you're injuring yourself repeatedly, basically not achieving a single goal anyone here or elsewhere is interested in for that matter. How in God's name is such an approach as good as it gets in anyone's eyes?

    Correct, there is no variation in principle. There is in the application of principle especially when not everything is known about any particular situation. Which is why a consistent weight increase remains a constant goal of anyone interested in causing muscle growth. How much of an increase and how often the weights are increased can vary.

    Not quite correct. People can about working out wrong, paying attention to the wrong details, and still achieve some amount of growth due a number of factors. Lack of training history for one, which gives them no place to go but up. Inadertent adherence to some HST principles while paying attention to other things.

    Then everyone who wants to be should be huge by now.

    If we knew every possible factor that affects muscle growth and knew how it applied to each individual person who was training, there wouldn't be. We don't know everything. The people on these boards who try HST, stick with it, refine it to suit their body's response, tend to do very well with gains.

    The people who don't do well seem to do a number of things. They try the one size fits all routine and expect it to turn them into Ronnie Coleman in 8 weeks. When it doesn't they give up. They post vague diets, indicating their nutrition isn't what it should be. The ask questions which makes it clear they're not getting the point of HST but are concentrating on certain portions of the one size fits all routine as if it's a magic formula for hugeness.

    HST principles work, plain and simple. Their application isn't as simple as SD/15/10/5/negatives. Some will respond better to constant volume, like myself. We do cluster training. Some skip the fifteens, also like myself, because it seems I have to stay in the heavier portion of the weight range I use for better results, even after an extended 4 week SD, which I've tried.

    When you're dealing with a system as complex as the human body, laying out 4 principles of what's needed to make one phenomena happen in a system where endless factors can affect that phenomena leads to variation depending on individual circumstances. If you can't see that then I'm sorry, but that's reality.
     
  20. Vince Basile

    Vince Basile New Member

    I am growing my arms. What happens is that sometimes I can't get to the gym and then miss the day I was going to workout on. It is difficult keeping my arms at the maximum. However, recently I had them near my best ever. What I want to do is exceed that peak and this can occur only with consistency and effort. Arms that are over 17 1/2 inches cold are not easy to make grow. Getting them over 18 takes a lot of dedication and effort. I hope to reach that measurement soon.

    Some people have no idea why certain muscles won't grow. If someone can't put on any weight then it is likely he has a calorie deficit and has to eat more high energy foods. I have a bloke in my gym that I train from time to time. I have mentioned this before but repeating it makes the point. Well, he can't get his arms to grow any more because he literally does not put enough mechanical tension on his arms. I have tried so many things but his large deltoids do most of the work. People 'cheat' during exercises and try to use more weight instead of contracting a muscle under that load. So the best theories and personal trainers can do only so much. There is nothing wrong with the theories but some people just do not apply them properly. When I think he has had a good workout he surprises me by saying he has not been eating enough because he is worried about putting on fat! Not only won't he build his arms bigger, but he cannot!
     

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