"Eating fat makes you fat"

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(colby2152 @ May 08 2008,9:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It is an inflated total caloric intake (i.e. improper nutrition) without a care about exercise that has made countries like the United States fat?  Simply put, people are eating too much and not exercising enough.  I cannot understand why this is being debated.

Blame carbs, blame dietary fat, blame protein and blame alcohol.  Blame them all...

4C+4P+9F+7A + 0*EXERCISE = OBESITY</div>I totally agree. It is not one cause. It is a mixture of causes. It is a lifestyle problem. Negligent and ignorant parents allow their children to consume way to much calories, in much the same way they do. The cafeterias on school campuses do not generally sell healthy foods. That is why 7 year old children develop diabetes due to insulin insensitivity from ingesting too much sugars, while eating medium to high fat. A majority of children doesn't play outdoors like they (we) used to. They are parked in front of a computer or in front of the television set, with one hand in a bag of potatoe chips and a remote/mouse in the other. I could go on, but we have all seen it. The exceptions are few.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The few exceptions to the rule that de novo lipogenesis is quantitatively minor have been when carbohydrate energy intake massively exceeds TEE, eg, the Guru Walla overfeeding tradition in Cameroon, wherein adolescent boys ingest &gt; 29.3 MJ (7000 kcal) carbohydrate/d and gain 12 kg body fat over 10 wk while eating only 4 kg fat (5). Thus, de novo lipogenesis does become a quantitatively major pathway when carbohydrate energy intake exceeds TEE, but this circumstance is unusual in daily life.
</div>If overconsumtion of both carbs and fat is usual in daily life then the population steadily grows bigger (as we all can see).
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(nkl @ May 08 2008,5:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
If overconsumtion of both carbs and fat is usual in daily life then the population steadily grows bigger (as we all can see).
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But we don't over-consume fat. If anything, we consume just about the same fat as we did before. We've only increased our carb intake. This would then mean that our fat intake is relatively lower. In other words, we're now eating low fat and high carb.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Is the total quantity of carbohydrates the cause of that weight gain in the Guru Walla adolescent boys? Or is it the proportion of carbohydrates to fat that is the cause? In either case, it's easy to point to a reduction of carbohydrates as the solution. And it still brings us back to carbohydrates, not dietary fat, as the cause of obesity.</div>

okay, NOW it seems you're changing your argument. Are you saying that it wasn't carbs that were the sole cause of weight gain here, but the carbs and fats combo??? And reducing the carbs reduces total calories anyways...

One of my questions still haven't been answered, do you believe eating ANY amount of carbohydrates immediately get stored as fat??? cheers

also, i think it's worth noting that it seems the REASON why cutting carbs is the best option for dropping BF is because of what Martin previously said, that carbs don't play that important a function in the body, and fats can take over its job, and also that fats and protein are vital for the body whereas carbs are not necessarily, but the reason that cutting carbs magically drops fat because carbs magically cause fat gain doesn't seem to be true... :S increasing ANY macronutrient (above your DEE) can cause fat/muscle gain
 
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(_Simon_ @ May 09 2008,7:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">and also that fats and protein are vital for the body whereas carbs are not necessarily,</div>
A large proportion of all fats and amino acids consumed each day are not vital either.
 
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(colby2152 @ May 08 2008,3:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
Simply put, people are eating too much and not exercising enough.
...</div>
If that was the real problem, then eating less fat (which contains less calories per weight), and exercising more (which is shown to be true with the high gym attendance) would be the solution. But the problem is just getting worse. So what we're doing is not the solution. So the problem isn't that we eat too much and/or it isn't that we don't exercise enough. So the hypothesis is wrong.

So what's the real problem then?
 
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(Martin Levac @ May 08 2008,5:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(nkl @ May 08 2008,5:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
If overconsumtion of both carbs and fat is usual in daily life then the population steadily grows bigger (as we all can see).
wow.gif
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But we don't over-consume fat. If anything, we consume just about the same fat as we did before. We've only increased our carb intake. This would then mean that our fat intake is relatively lower. In other words, we're now eating low fat and high carb.</div>
Generally, you are right around fat consumption decreasing over the years, but that trend may be changing over the past ten thanks to Dr. Atkins.

The end result remains the same. Eat more and exercise less is a combination for extra adipose tissue -&gt; overweight -&gt; diabetic tendencies, high blood pressure, high cholesterol -&gt; obese -&gt; diabetes and a bad cardiovascular system
 
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(colby2152 @ May 09 2008,8:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ May 08 2008,5:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(nkl @ May 08 2008,5:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
If overconsumtion of both carbs and fat is usual in daily life then the population steadily grows bigger (as we all can see).
wow.gif
</div>
But we don't over-consume fat. If anything, we consume just about the same fat as we did before. We've only increased our carb intake. This would then mean that our fat intake is relatively lower. In other words, we're now eating low fat and high carb.</div>
Generally, you are right around fat consumption decreasing over the years, but that trend may be changing over the past ten thanks to Dr. Atkins.

The end result remains the same. Eat more and exercise less is a combination for extra adipose tissue -&gt; overweight -&gt; diabetic tendencies, high blood pressure, high cholesterol -&gt; obese -&gt; diabetes and a bad cardiovascular system</div>
The trend is not changing if the rate of increase of obesity is any indication. We're eating more and more carbs and the problem is growing worse. Check the news for anything that relates to obesity, diet or diabetes. You will find that the entire world is still stuck in low fat/high carb myth about healthful eating. Only a few are enlightened enough to even consider low carb as a potential solution.

The end result doesn't remain the same. It's not total calories that causes obesity. It's carbohydrates that causes obesity. Take carbohydrates out and obesity disappears. And we don't even need to go to the gym. We can just stay home and do nothing all day long and still obesity disappears. In fact exercise, if anything, makes us more hungry so we eat more. Any way you look at it, exercise is counter productive with regards to losing fat. It can sure make us stronger or more muscular but not leaner. That's the exclusive domain of diet.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The end result doesn't remain the same. It's not total calories that causes obesity. It's carbohydrates that causes obesity. Take carbohydrates out and obesity disappears. And we don't even need to go to the gym. We can just stay home and do nothing all day long and still obesity disappears. In fact exercise, if anything, makes us more hungry so we eat more. Any way you look at it, exercise is counter productive with regards to losing fat. It can sure make us stronger or more muscular but not leaner. That's the exclusive domain of diet. </div>

What? You cannot be serious. You must be joking.

Yes. You're joking; aren't you?

Hahaha
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If that was the real problem, then eating less fat (which contains less calories per weight), and exercising more (which is shown to be true with the high gym attendance) would be the solution. But the problem is just getting worse. So what we're doing is not the solution. So the problem isn't that we eat too much and/or it isn't that we don't exercise enough. So the hypothesis is wrong.</div>

yes but you're assuming that because society knows how to combat obesity that we're currently doing that. we are not. simple, the people who are currently obese are obese due to their behaviour. we can't just tell them what to do or what they need to do, society IMO over time has created such easier and quicker ways of doing things, and also developed more crap 'tasty' foods. behaviour and our beliefs is the SOURCE of the majority of problems, and only by directing our attention to and fixing the source of our problems will they disappear.
 
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(colby2152 @ May 09 2008,9:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The end result doesn't remain the same. It's not total calories that causes obesity. It's carbohydrates that causes obesity. Take carbohydrates out and obesity disappears. And we don't even need to go to the gym. We can just stay home and do nothing all day long and still obesity disappears. In fact exercise, if anything, makes us more hungry so we eat more. Any way you look at it, exercise is counter productive with regards to losing fat. It can sure make us stronger or more muscular but not leaner. That's the exclusive domain of diet. </div>

What? You cannot be serious. You must be joking.

Yes. You're joking; aren't you?

Hahaha
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If you were looking at the subject objectively, you'd ask the question: Is exercise making me more hungry? Surely, since you believe in the Positive Caloric Balance hypothesis, anything that makes you eat more (and thus grow fat) should be taken seriously, don't you think?
 
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(_Simon_ @ May 09 2008,9:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If that was the real problem, then eating less fat (which contains less calories per weight), and exercising more (which is shown to be true with the high gym attendance) would be the solution. But the problem is just getting worse. So what we're doing is not the solution. So the problem isn't that we eat too much and/or it isn't that we don't exercise enough. So the hypothesis is wrong.</div>

yes but you're assuming that because society knows how to combat obesity that we're currently doing that. we are not. simple, the people who are currently obese are obese due to their behaviour. we can't just tell them what to do or what they need to do, society IMO over time has created such easier and quicker ways of doing things, and also developed more crap 'tasty' foods. behaviour and our beliefs is the SOURCE of the majority of problems, and only by directing our attention to and fixing the source of our problems will they disappear.</div>
If you think I'm making assumptions, take a look for yourself. Are we eating less fat? Is gym attendance higher? As for people growing fat because of their behavior, that's an assumption. If you think it's not, again take a look for yourself. Where's the evidence that obesity is caused by overeating and/or sedentary behavior?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you were looking at the subject objectively, you'd ask the question: Is exercise making me more hungry? Surely, since you believe in the Positive Caloric Balance hypothesis, anything that makes you eat more (and thus grow fat) should be taken seriously, don't you think? </div>

Exercise does make a person more hungry. You cannot go and link that up to saying that exercise does not help a person lose weight. Sure, a person who exercises but has poor diet will continue to be overweight. You're right... you do not need exercise to lose weight. Proper diet is all that is needed. However, it's a no brainer that exercise goes a long way in extra energy expenditure and increased metabolic rate.

Also, you are not wrong by saying that the elimination of carbs will reduce obesity. Eliminating a macronutrient will of course reduce caloric intake. You make it sound like this is the only way. Carbohydrates are not the problem; excessive eating and the lack of exercise are.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Where's the evidence that obesity is caused by overeating and/or sedentary behavior? </div>

Physiological thermodynamics
 
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(Martin Levac @ May 09 2008,8:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(colby2152 @ May 08 2008,3:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
Simply put, people are eating too much and not exercising enough.
...</div>
If that was the real problem, then eating less fat (which contains less calories per weight), and exercising more (which is shown to be true with the high gym attendance) would be the solution.</div>
Colby, what I think you should be dumbfounded about is this quote above.

How does it follow? You said &quot;people are eating too much and not exercising enough.&quot; Martin says &quot;If that was the real problem, then eating less fat and exercising more would be the solution.&quot;
How the heck do you get that solution from that problem? If the problem is eating too much and not doing enough, why would you say &quot;well then eat less fat?&quot; That does not follow. What would is to say &quot;then eat less and exercise more.&quot;
 
I have no idea if we are eating less fat, nor do i know if we are exercising more. In fact, who are 'we'? i think this 'we' you are referring to are the general public. Yes, there probably has been people eating less fats, and exercising more, BUT the obese people are not doing these things. Prove to me that it is all obese people eating less fats and exercising more. ONly the active people (or the ones making these decisions) are really doing these things. And nah i don't think that the behaviour thing is an assumption, I think it is more fact than any logic (which to me can get out of hand).

Take me for example, i eat PLENTY of carbs, but not because i am hungry from them. I've eaten stacks of carbs (my diet is approximately 55% of carbs or even more), and i did not lash out at more carbs. Also, i eat plenty of carbs, yet it is not all stored as fat. Not much of it is at all. And i exercise
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. Now do you want to change your argument to genetics being the primary source
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this is all friendly conversation by the way, i just wanted to note that i'm not at all having a go at you, we're all learning here
 
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(colby2152 @ May 09 2008,9:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Where's the evidence that obesity is caused by overeating and/or sedentary behavior? </div>

Physiological thermodynamics</div>
I don't know what you mean by that. Overeating and sedentary behavior are both behaviors. I don't see how a physical property of our bodies could somehow be a behavior.
 
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(colby2152 @ May 09 2008,7:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you were looking at the subject objectively, you'd ask the question: Is exercise making me more hungry? Surely, since you believe in the Positive Caloric Balance hypothesis, anything that makes you eat more (and thus grow fat) should be taken seriously, don't you think? </div>

Exercise does make a person more hungry. You cannot go and link that up to saying that exercise does not help a person lose weight. Sure, a person who exercises but has poor diet will continue to be overweight. You're right... you do not need exercise to lose weight. Proper diet is all that is needed. However, it's a no brainer that exercise goes a long way in extra energy expenditure and increased metabolic rate.

Also, you are not wrong by saying that the elimination of carbs will reduce obesity. Eliminating a macronutrient will of course reduce caloric intake. You make it sound like this is the only way. Carbohydrates are not the problem; excessive eating and the lack of exercise are.</div>
right ooooooooon brutha ;)
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">(colby2152 @ May 09 2008,9:37)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Where's the evidence that obesity is caused by overeating and/or sedentary behavior?

Physiological thermodynamics

I don't know what you mean by that. Overeating and sedentary behavior are both behaviors. I don't see how a physical property of our bodies could somehow be a behavior.</div>
i think he means that physiological thermodynamics is the evidence that overeating and sedentary behaviour cause obesity (ie people become obese through overeating and sedentary behaviour and that is shown through physiological thermodynamics (ie bodily process which show gains in bodyfat))
 
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(_Simon_ @ May 09 2008,9:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
BUT the obese people are not doing these things.
...
ONly the active people (or the ones making these decisions) are really doing these things.
...</div>
These are also assumptions. We are biased on our judgment of people. We see somebody obese, we immediately think &quot;he's eating too much&quot;. It doesn't matter how much he actually eats, he eats too much. We don't question that he eats too much, we simply accept it as a fact of being obese. He is obese, therefore he eats too much. And so when he tells us that he, in fact, doesn't eat too much but instead counts his calories every day, we don't believe him. Or if we do, we tell him it's not working so he should cut more calories. When he tells us that he walks so many minutes every day, we don't believe him. Or if we do, we tell him it's not working so he should walk more.

Is he obese because he doesn't exercise enough? Or does he stay at home doing nothing because he is obese?

Is he obese because he overeats? Or does he overeat because he is obese?


If you're doing fine on a high carb diet, obviously a high carb diet works for you. But if you are doing fine on a high carb diet this only means you are not so sensitive to carbs. It doesn't mean the rest of the world should do fine as well. Or even that you'll do fine for the rest of your life.

Insulin resistance builds up over many years. It hits hardest mostly around the time our reproductive capacity drops. Between 30 and 40 years old. But it's showing up progressively sooner as mothers give birth to already malnourished infants. And further feed them a high carb diet.
 
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(Martin Levac @ May 09 2008,9:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(colby2152 @ May 09 2008,9:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Where's the evidence that obesity is caused by overeating and/or sedentary behavior? </div>

Physiological thermodynamics</div>
I don't know what you mean by that. Overeating and sedentary behavior are both behaviors. I don't see how a physical property of our bodies could somehow be a behavior.</div>
I was saying that thermodynamics is what controls our weight change. This isn't completely black or white, metabolic rates can be changed slightly due to consumption of certain fats (EFA's) and carbs (low-GI). However, at the end of the day, thermodynamics is what determines if we gain or lose weight.

Calories in = calories out

A balance must be maintained. Overeating results in gained weight regardless of the macro nutrient make up.
 
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