For those who like to lift heavy

[Pauly]

Quote[/b] (EctoSquat @ Feb. 21 2005,7:15)]Now I have to get going on a 1000 word article on the 'Importance of Milk'

.

Would be funny if you titled it 'In't Milk Brilliant!'

(well, if youre in the UK - it was the catchphrase from a long running series of funny milk commercials)

 

[EctoSquat]

Quote[/b] (Pauly @ Feb. 21 2005,5:09)]

Quote[/b] (EctoSquat @ Feb. 21 2005,7:15)]Now I have to get going on a 1000 word article on the 'Importance of Milk'

.

Would be funny if you titled it 'In't Milk Brilliant!'
(well, if youre in the UK - it was the catchphrase from a long running series of funny milk commercials)

In America it's "Got Milk?".

 

[EctoSquat]

Hmm...thinking more about Max-OT. What about this :

First a 9-14 day SD. Then start Week 1 with plain old Max-OT, with something like 5-7 reps. Now DOMS should be pretty bad, but that's why there's nothing more. Contrast showers should help with this a little also.

Week 2 you add in pulses with isolation movements and fascia stretches.

There will be a minimum 10% load increase every week until Week 8. If you can't hit the target reps with one set towards the last few weeks, use cluster reps.

Does that sound like a feeble attempt to incorporate some more hypertrophy into Max-OT?

 

[EctoSquat]

Bump...got to 2nd page.

 

[vicious]

Remember that you're still trying to train to failure once a week every week. The key modifications to Max-OT are the every-week progressive loading and the frequent training. The key modification to HST is the failure training, used to test strength levels and force significant neuromuscular adaptations week to week. The trick is to balance these two things, so that you enjoy adaptations from the latter, frequent bouts from the former, yet still don't burn yourself out. Diet will be key. So will clustering, which enables you do to apply frequent bouts after your failure test without making a big hit on your fatigue.

Also, I'd back off mandating 10% increments unless you're feeling really strong that week. Increments may vary from 2.5% to 10% Ideally, you would start with a load for 8 reps, then increment enough to do 7 or 8 reps next week, then 6 or 7 next week, and so on in order to get 6-10 weeks of productive training. It's a bit of a game, though, that'll take some experience and gambling. Much fun, no?

If you're looking to add stretch-point movements and implement LS, you'll want to keep the volume down, way down. But I wouldn't recommending that type of stuff until the next cycle. For now, you may want to add some low-level matabolic work (i.e. 1 set of 15s) on the Wednesday and Friday the sessions to bring up metabolic work.

If this all works for you, you'll get about a 20-30% increase in your 5RM through one cycle. AND mass gains up the wazzoo. 200lbs bench press becomes 240. 300lbs dead becomes 360lbs. A little bit of this, a little bit of that.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Lance]

Quote[/b] (vicious @ Feb. 22 2005,2:45)]If this all works for you, you'll get about a 20-30% increase in your 5RM through one cycle.  AND mass gains up the wazzoo.  200lbs bench press becomes 240.  300lbs dead becomes 360lbs.  A little bit of this, a little bit of that.
cheers,
Jules

How does this compare to the heavy HST we're discussing Vicious?

 

[vicious]

The first 2 weeks of heavy HST and the hybrid is really the same. When you shoot for a load that you can fail at 8 reps, you'll really roughly starting at a load befitting the beginning of 5s. That's about 75-80% of 1RM.

On the hybrid, I hope for on average 5% load increments per week. After 6 weeks, that's 30% total increment, or roughly 105-110% of 1RM. This is likely your best case scenario, but the difference is that this increase directly transfers to your new 5RM, and you will be working at your new strength gains right away into your next cycle. Thus, your 60/40 balance of hypertrophy and strength. This actually has elements of both Max-OT and DC methodology (mainly the increase-the-load-every-week thing) . I'm not saying you'll get comparable results to DC, but you should get much better hypertrophy and strength results than Max-OT. Well, in my opinion. Person should refeed, though, on the weekend before trying out their new max every week.

On the heavy HST, you can reliably go 40% of total increment (and probably more on the pressing movements), using chunky 5% increments, on a fairly predictable schedule. You can also go higher frequency, easily implement the Queen's bounty of "superstrain" and metabolic stress techniques, and so on because you're not bound to failure testing/training on a periodic basis. When you're freed from CNS fatigue problem, you can really ratchet up stimuli for hypertrophy. In expense, you don't increase measurable strength as quickly. And you must use negatives.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Lance]

So as the HST principles are meant, i'll be getting better hypertrophy from the HEAVY HST Tweak compared to the HST/Max-OT Hybrid you'd outligned.

Sounds good. Thanks.

 

[EctoSquat]

Quote[/b] (vicious @ Feb. 22 2005,3:45)]If you're looking to add stretch-point movements and implement LS, you'll want to keep the volume down, way down.  But I wouldn't recommending that type of stuff until the next cycle.  For now, you may want to add some low-level matabolic work (i.e. 1 set of 15s) on the Wednesday and Friday the sessions to bring up metabolic work.

Are you talking about HST there?  I thought you were orginally talking about Max-OT, but then you mentioned Wednesday and Friday as if they had some significance, so are you talking about HST there (2 full body workouts)?

Sorry for my confusion.

So I take it now that the best way to do this is a modified heavy HST.  So a set up would be :

-three weeks of 5RMs (or start a tad lighter)
-increase the weight 2.5-10% weekly (after the initial two weeks of just 5RMs every time?)
-when I can't complete (5 reps, use cluster reps to get say 10 reps (2 sets of 5 reps)
-bring in stretch techniques after the first cycle

Sorry to keep bringing stuff up again...I'm stupid

.

You don't really have to provide explinations for everything, if you want just post up what would be done (clusters instead of negs, I can't do negs), and that's fine.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]
Are you talking about HST there? I thought you were orginally talking about Max-OT, but then you mentioned Wednesday and Friday as if they had some significance, so are you talking about HST there (2 full body workouts)?QUOTE]

In that application, it's about collapsing Max-OT many-way split into either a HST-friendly full-body or 2-way split. Monday is strength testing -- training to failure and such in order to measure strength as well as create fatigue-related strength adaptations. Wednesday and Friday is just dedicated to repeat that load without having to worry about the fatigue. In terms of total volume applied to a bodypart, they come out about the same.

three weeks of 5RMs (or start a tad lighter

3 weeks of 5s, not 5RM.

Quote[/b] ]increase the weight 2.5-10% weekly

Yup.

Quote[/b] ]after the initial two weeks of just 5RMs every time?

Couldn't follow what you meant by that.

Quote[/b] ]when I can't complete (5 reps, use cluster reps to get say 10 reps (2 sets of 5 reps)

I would recommend failure-testing for Monday, then cluster up Wednesday and Friday. In other words, Wednesday and Friday, you don't even do 5 reps for your first set. Just, say, sets of 3 reps or less until you hit 10 reps.

Quote[/b] ]bring in stretch techniques after the first cycle

Yup, definitely wait on this. At this point, you want to find a workout structure that will work for your needs, THEN complicate it with extra tools.

cheers,
Jules

 

[EctoSquat]

Quote[/b] (vicious @ Feb. 25 2005,3:09)]

Quote[/b] ]3 weeks of 5s, not 5RM.

Oh alright. That makes things a lot easier .

Quote[/b] ]Couldn't follow what you meant by that.

Nvm, it's not relevant anymore anyways.

Quote[/b] ]I would recommend failure-testing for Monday, then cluster up Wednesday and Friday. In other words, Wednesday and Friday, you don't even do 5 reps for your first set. Just, say, sets of 3 reps or less until you hit 10 reps.

Ok now this is the only part that confuses me. So you do the 3 weeks of 5s. Now you do a 5RM testing workout. First off, is this workout just 1 set per exercise, or still 2-3 if that's the way you did it with the 3 initial weeks of the 5s? Secondly, do you keep that same weight for Wednesday and Friday, and just cluster it and not go to failure?

I almost understand this now. Also, what volume will Average Joe be able to handle? Is 3 sets too much?

One more Q : how much experience do you think one must have before he attempts DC?

Thank you very much for helping me out.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]First off, is this workout just 1 set per exercise, or still 2-3 if that's the way you did it with the 3 initial weeks of the 5s?

Yup, more or less. Training to failure with just one set causes a lot of CNS fatigue, BUT when done properly causes a lot of adaptations. When there's just 5 reps or so, it helps to do 2 sets to failure. But that is up to you. The other thing is, you don't need to be focused on mantaining the rep count from your previous count. Monday is more about finding where you're at and inducing enough strength-specific stimulation.

Quote[/b] ]Secondly, do you keep that same weight for Wednesday and Friday, and just cluster it and not go to failure?

Yup. And Wednesday and Friday is also where you would bump up the volume to something you more like. For example, if during the initial 3 weeks of 5s, you were doing 3 sets per exercise, then Wednesday and Friday would be your days to match that kind of volume. If you did 8 reps to failure on Monday, your target total reps for Wednesday would be 24 (i.e. 3x8) total reps. If you did 5 reps to falure, then 10 total reps.

The key thing to remember is that, when clustering, to give yourself generous rest periods and to cluster from the very first set. Three sets is very realistic, but keep in mind that clustering does eat up a lot of time. And you'll still need a light 15s burn set to round out the metabolic stress and give you the proper "full" look.

Quote[/b] ]One more Q : how much experience do you think one must have before he attempts DC?

If he owns a copy of Brawn or Beyond Brawn, right away.

It's not really so much about raw strengt, per se, or even PLing background. DC's loaded stretches regimen creates a super-high strain effect that breaks the very high threshhold most advanced-level trainees have from not doing SD. Beginner-to-intermediate trainees don't need it to grow, but can certainly benefit from that sort of modality. What limits the DC noobie is basically their ability to hit failure, with the proper rep cadence (the 4-6 second negative), under extreme metabolic duress. I bring up Brawn, because most people who've done Hardgainer, have done the 20-rep breathing squats. If you can do 20-rep squats, you have the mental makeup to do DC. If you can't, then wait.

cheers,
Jules

 

[EctoSquat]

Quote[/b] (vicious @ Feb. 25 2005,3:52)]If he owns a copy of Brawn or Beyond Brawn, right away.    

It's not really so much about raw strengt, per se, or even PLing background.  DC's loaded stretches regimen creates a super-high strain effect that breaks the  very high threshhold most advanced-level trainees have from not doing SD.  Beginner-to-intermediate trainees don't need it to grow, but can certainly benefit from that sort of modality.  What limits the DC noobie is basically their ability to hit failure, with the proper rep cadence (the 4-6 second negative), under extreme metabolic duress.  I bring up Brawn, because most people who've done Hardgainer, have done the 20-rep breathing squats.  If you can do 20-rep squats, you have the mental makeup to do DC.  If you can't, then wait.  
cheers,
Jules

Alright, thanks.

Yeah Beyond Brawn is a great book. I've done 20 rep squats for a few months last year, they're nuts. The thing is, DC "experts" have told me that I'm in no way experienced enough to use the program.

 

[vicious]

I would normally agree with the DC experts.

The problem is, general BB boards like bodybuilding.com (and even elitefitness), have exposed a lot of kids to some really advanced programs, stuff that they shouldn't try without nailing down the fundamentals. They don't have the conceptual background; they obviously don't have the practical experience to master high-fatigue failure training while counting and mantaining good form. I wouldn't even recommend HST or Max-OT to somebody with less than one year of practical training experience and learning. And DC is harder than both.

But I think you're the exception that proves the rule. You've done 20-rep. You know how to train heavy without sacrificing form. I assume you also are familiar with rep cadence. You've read McRoberts. You can do DC.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Lance]

Hey Vicious,

Well here's the general gig i have going for the Heavy HST routine.

2 weeks 5's
4 weeks post-5's

I will take a 9 day SD then start. 5's will be as normal.

5's:

Loaded stretch for calves from the beginning

Starting post 5's:

for non negative movements, stay at 5rm for 1st week, then increase weekly at same rate as during the 5's (say 10lbs for bench, etc.). These will be cluster reps to 5 reps.

Loaded stretches on bodyparts i'm specializing. 15's set for metabolic work.

Okay, i think that's the most of it. It's hard to put everything down in an easy to read format.

I've decided that i really want to specialize in arms and chest for this heavy HST cycle.

Exercises currently planned:
Bench Press (can't do negatives, cluster)
Flys (negs, LS)

Incline Curls (negs, LS)
Overhead DB Extensions (negs, LS)

I'm not sure how else i can specialize. Maybe pules instead of a 15's set to 'really' ramp up the metabolic work on these muscles?

Pulses:
Pec dec after chest movements

Pulses at near-contraction on curls?
Pulses at near-contraction on extensions?

Am i close to specializing enough? I'll be doing a simple 15's set for metabolic work throughout the cycle to keep things simple, but for my specialized bodyparts i have no problem getting a little 'technical'.

If you get to this soon enough, i'm going to the gym tonight to test my maxes on the newer exercises (mainly the arm ones so far), and just incase i need to test anything else (pec dec wait for pulses? any weight for pulses?) hopefully you'll get to this in time.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]Pulses at near-contraction on curls?
Pulses at near-contraction on extensions?

Am i close to specializing enough? I'll be doing a simple 15's set for metabolic work throughout the cycle to keep things simple, but for my specialized bodyparts i have no problem getting a little 'technical'.

If you want to go beyond 15s, then pulse with machine curls and machine extensions/tricep pushdowns. Don't try to induce metabolic stress by using the stretch-point movements. Pec dec works great for pec pulses. In fact, when you're in the gym, give it a shot to see how it feels.

You'll probably be using 15s-ish loads for isolation-movement pulses. Basically, you want to create a terrific burn with just 10-15 pulses.

When figuring out your limits for curls and flies, you ideally want to figure out the maximals for normal sitting DB curls, normal DB flies, and so on. They'll all be a little higher than what you can do with the stretch-variation, which is where you start doing the coupound-isolation variation to compensate. But that's up to you.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Lance]

Allright i'm heading to the gym soon to find my RM's on a couple exercises and also what weight i'll work with for pulses. Then 9 day SD and a good bulk! I havn't bulked in almost a year, but that bulk (which was my one and only bulk ever) gave me muscle so fast! I've been toying around trying to stay lean for too long, i'm missing out on results! Hoping for slabs of pectorals, biceps, and triceps on this one! =)

 

[vicious]

Give the pulses at the gym a shot just to see how they feel. You'll like the burn.

 

[Lance]

Oh yeah almost forgot,

You have me doing loaded stretches with calves from the get go, should i still wait on specialized bodyparts until post 5's for loaded stretches? And why do we wait in the first place, what's wrong with extra strain?

Thanks,
Lance

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]And why do we wait in the first place, what's wrong with extra strain?

Because you're coming straight out of SD, the DOMS from 5s could drop your natural strength levels initially. That first week may be difficult since you're jumping straight to 5s. Cluster if need be. You don't want to LS at this point.

Also, you don't want to apply that kind of stress on your connective tissue before it has some adaptation from the training you're going to do.

Calves are the great exception to all this, since the average soleus muscle is 80% slow twitch.

You could start LS during your 2nd week of 5s, if you wish. I'm just being conservative since LS, even the 10-15 second variation, can be quite painful.

Just as a general note: one of the mistakes people make with HST is that they throw in the kitchen sink early into their routine, right out of SD, when load progression isn't ideal. Adding extra strain also bumps up RBE, and so it's important to have the progressive element fully working when adding LS. That is why, I ask you to wait until the 2nd of 5s, when the absolute load is already very heavy, before adding in the extra stuff.

cheers,
Jules