FORM of creaitne

Discussion in 'Anything and Everything about dietary supplements' started by terp, Aug 15, 2007.

  1. terp

    terp New Member

    just curious what you thought of the various forms of creatine (mono, CEE, gluconate, MCC, etc. etc.) in terms of effectiveness & potential toxicity. there's a huge difference in cost ($12.95 for a kilo of mono vs. $59.95 for gluconate). I did a search, but it only turned up a SizeOn log.

    I've always been in the "once you're saturated it makes no difference" camp, but on other forums I see people talking about the negative effects of mono & CEE & saying CEE in particular should always be cycled.


    any thoughts? thanks in advance. thoughts on whether cycling is necessary would be appreciated too b/c I haven't seen studies longer than 2 months [​IMG]
     
  2. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Well if you are going to cycle creatine, then you'd better cut out all meats from your diet when you are cycling off of creatine, since it is a natural part of all meats. In other words, the idea that you need to cycle creatine is bunk.

    Also, I would be hesitant to use any form of creatine other than creatine mono, because all the studies on creatine were done with creatine mono. We know that monohydrate is safe in the long term, we know a lot about it - we don't know much about all these other forms, however. I have yet to see a legitimate study on of these other forms of creatine, except for the studies that are funded by the people making these other forms of creatine... and let's face it, those studies are dubious at best.
     
  3. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In other words, the idea that you need to cycle creatine is bunk.</div>

    Holla back now! [​IMG]
     
  4. you dont need to cycle with creatine. its just a way of some companys to make you intake more so you could buy more of there products. i take mono and im fine. CEE is also popular but i have no experience from it.
     
  5. RUSS

    RUSS Member

    I've been taking CE2 (CEE) straight through(no cycling off) for about a year , previously used the mono (powder form). I don't really notice a difference - I personally find the CE2 (tablets) more convenient. But haven't experienced any adverse effects (that I'm aware of) beyond the financial one.
    If anyone is aware of studies showing that it should be cycled (CEE) , I would be more than just a little interested in reading them. [​IMG]
     
  6. mcraec

    mcraec New Member

    I can't be bothered to find the cycling of creatine studies, check out Dan's site they will be there. IIRC even Bryan has an article on it in the articles section.

    In regards to Mono vs CEE vs Kre-alkalyn, here are some studies. Don't know if they have circled here yet.

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

    Child R and Tallon MJ

    Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, [email protected]

    Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

    This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (Creapure™). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37º +/- 1ºC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV).

    After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120 minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

    CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.
    </div>

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> Kre-alkalyn® supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.

    Tallon MJ and Child R

    University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. [email protected]

    All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn® (KA) a &quot;Buffered&quot; creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.

    This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (Creapure™). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37º +/- 1ºC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.

    In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach. </div>
     
  7. RUSS

    RUSS Member

    Wow , thanks codz3! I'll be switching back to CM when my current bottle of CE2 runs out .

    You know , there were times I would run out and procrastinate getting more - I would always worry a bit at W/O time about wether the w/o would take more apparent effort and if the last reps would be a struggle - there was never much of a discernable difference and now (thanks to you ) I know why! [​IMG]
     
  8. chalky212

    chalky212 New Member

    <div>
    (duramax @ Aug. 16 2007,16:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">you dont need to cycle with creatine. its just a way of some companys to make you intake more so you could buy more of there products. i take mono and im fine. CEE is also popular but i have no experience from it.</div>
    How is it making you take more? You'd be taking less. I think you're referring to what is known as &quot;loading&quot;?
     
  9. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (vdk_au @ Aug. 20 2007,10:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (duramax @ Aug. 16 2007,16:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">you dont need to cycle with creatine. its just a way of some companys to make you intake more so you could buy more of there products. i take mono and im fine. CEE is also popular but i have no experience from it.</div>
    How is it making you take more? You'd be taking less. I think you're referring to what is known as &quot;loading&quot;?</div>
    Yes, you will have to load it each time if you follow the directions, and when you load, you are taking almost a weeks worth of creatine each day.

    Also, saying that creatine must be cycled makes it sound more like steroids, so people think it will work even better than it actually does.
     
  10. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    No real need to use any special form of creatine. The limitations all happen at the cell, not the gut.
     
  11. leegee38

    leegee38 Member

    <div>
    (RUSS @ Aug. 17 2007,12:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Wow , thanks codz3! I'll be switching back to CM when my current bottle of CE2 runs out .

           </div>
    I just feel the need to point out that those studies that say CEE and Kre-Alkalyn are both inferior were funded by a company that makes a creatine monohydrate product. They couldn't possibly have wanted that outcome from the studies ... could they? Hmmm ....
     
  12. mcraec

    mcraec New Member

    In regards to that

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am an author of the study an would like to address this point.

    CR-Technologies does not sell a creatine product we are a company that sells delivery system for nutraceuticals of which one application is creatine.

    I am and have worked for multiple companies that sell products which contain Creatine Ethyl ester (iSatori and Labrada to name just 2) products so if we where a biased company why would we release this data?

    The facts are we have looked over many years at a host of products which may suit the application of our technology and the assessment of CEE and Kre-alkalyn where just a few of these. As such we thought the industry would be interested in the results given the nature of the outcome.

    We would be happy to have used any creatine (cee or similar) with our delivery technology if the data would have come back differently. However, we found it not favorable, but that is science and you can only report the facts.

    Additionally we had our results confirmed by an independent analytical lab and from which we did not touch the products. They where sent direct from the manufacture to the company incase any issues of product tampering where raised.

    I hope you can now take the studies on face value.

    Best Regards DOCT </div>
     
  13. terp

    terp New Member

    <div>
    (Totentanz @ Aug. 15 2007,16:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well if you are going to cycle creatine, then you'd better cut out all meats from your diet when you are cycling off of creatine, since it is a natural part of all meats.  In other words, the idea that you need to cycle creatine is bunk.</div>
    Tot- totally understand your point, but you do hear about down regulation of the creatine transporter (I even found an old article of Bryan's that recommends cycling for this reason) w/ mono supplementation. While acknowledging the obvious difference b/t creatine &amp; AAS, if you increase your testosterone artificially, your testosterone production can shut down. Could the same logic be extended to the body's creatine production? In other words, sure it's produced naturally, but if you fiddle w/ the system could you compromise the body's ability to do that?

    thanks in advance.
     
  14. ZMT

    ZMT New Member

    when you are full, you are full hence - down regulation of the creatine transporter
    and source (internal/external) does not matter (AFAIK)

    why cycle ?
    mono is cheap and even if your own factory is not producing much, you are still getting what you need
     

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