How could i simplify this program

All I have to say is that if you notice symmetry issues developing and you do not address them through whatever means, it's because you're stupid not because isolations are the best thing ever in weightlifting.

Honestly, I prefer to target muscles with whatever lift works best for me, not strictly with isolations. I build a program based around compounds, then add volume through additional exercises or additional reps for whatever muscle groups. For example, triceps, I will do bench or dips, then do close grip bench press to target the triceps. Not an isolation and in fact, in my opinion and experience, works better than a tricep isolation because you are able to use a much larger load without placing undue stress on the elbow. Another example - lats. I do some sort of a row or weighted chinup, then add pulldowns to increase volume. Pulldowns are a compound exercise. The point is that you can add more volume to lagging bodyparts to improve symmetry without resorting to isolations.

To answer FistofFury's challenge about the pics - I've posted plenty of those on this site. Arguably, my symmetry isn't perfect, as arms are a lagging bodypart for me, however they are greater than 16 inches when cold so I think the symmetry problem with arms is mostly in my head. Not that my appearance has a lot of bearing on my argument, but he is the one who brought it up and implied that everyone who advocates fewer isolations is tiny or looks like crap.
 
Seriously? I just went back to re-read my post again because I couldn't remember saying anything about ONLY using isolations (besides pointing out Bryan's own example is riddled with them).

Apparently you don't understand sarcasm. It is a form of humor.

If you look closer at Bryan's example, and keep in mind the definition of compound vs isolation, you will find that you are mistaken in the statement you made where you said that Bryan's routine is mostly isolations. It is in fact mostly compounds.
 
Apparently you don't understand sarcasm. It is a form of humor.

If you look closer at Bryan's example, and keep in mind the definition of compound vs isolation, you will find that you are mistaken in the statement you made where you said that Bryan's routine is mostly isolations. It is in fact mostly compounds.

Sorry Tot, I'm having a bad day (argument with the missus getting sent home from work without pay and all that) so don't mean to come off like a dick.

Anyway, here is the Bryan's routine:

Workout A-
Squat (compound)
Leg curl (iso)
bench (com)
chin (com)
rear delt (iso)
shrugs (iso)
bi's (could go either way but most would take that as some sort of isolation curl)
tri's (as above)
calves (iso)

Workout B:
Leg Press (com)
Leg curl (iso)
Dips (com)
Rows (com)
Rear Delts (iso)
Shrugs (iso)
Bi's (as above)
Tri's (as above)
Calves(iso)

I also get what your saying about using a compound to bring up a lagging body part but what about if you don't want to bring up your lats when trying to bring up your bi's etc.

Plus,although a compound is using a larger load it is also spreading it over more muscle groups and they aren't all working as hard as each other. For example, emg shows that hamstrings are working at about 50% during squats (perhaps more or less depending on technique) and the same is true for any compound exercise. Although your using less load for a leg curl your hamstrings are taking the full load (and you also training them in a way no deadlift variation can). Same with chins vs curls etc.
 
Right, but on the other hand with an isolation, you are also placing all that stress on one joint alone. In the instance of curls, that can be a lot of load on the triceps. Joint health is important if you want to stay in the game for life and not end up an arthritic old man who looks decent but can't move without pain.

I think your point that you need to concern yourself with symmetry is valid. My point is simply that there are several ways to address the issue, the main one being to add volume for that muscle group. Isolations can be advantageous in some situations but the main concern I have is, again, the joint stress. Considering the fact that you cannot change the shape of a muscle no matter what you lift you use, only the size, you should take into account which lift will best suit your purposes for bringing up lagging bodyparts.
Typically if you have a symmetry problem that is not due to genetics (this will be the main thing that will screw you) then it will be due to poor exercise choice. Bryan has stated in Q&As before that there is nothing wrong with a minimalist routine adding in extra lifts for bodyparts that need focus (Ex arms) and I think this is smart as well. Cover all your bases with lifts, focusing on compounds in order to keep exercises as minimal as possible while still hitting the entire body, then add in more lifts, whether compound or isolation, to cover bodyparts that need extra attention. In some cases, an isolation is going to make more sense. One clear example is calves.

Sorry you are having a bad day.
 
Tot, I agree with all that and was what I was trying to get at with my first post...I just suck at putting down what is swimming around in my head!

It's never either/or but what's right for that person at that point in time. I still stand by my 5x5 quip! There just something about the way most of those guys develop that puts me off. Just look in the free stronglifts ebook. haha
 
Off what i have learnt from this thread
[TABLE="width: 540"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"]Workout A (Monday.Friday)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD]Legs(quads, some hams)[/TD]
[TD]Squat[/TD]
[TD]Mandatory[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD]Shoulders(all)[/TD]
[TD]Shoulder Press[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD]Chest(lower)[/TD]
[TD]Decline Press[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD]Back(upper)[/TD]
[TD]Barbell Row[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD]Back(upper)[/TD]
[TD]Pullups[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD]Back(lower)[/TD]
[TD]Deadlift[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD]Assistance Work(ches;upper)[/TD]
[TD]Incline Cable Flys[/TD]
[TD]Optional[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD]Assistance Work(shoulders;Lateral)[/TD]
[TD]Lateral Raise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD]Assistance Work(shoulders;posterior)[/TD]
[TD]Rear Delt Fly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD]Assistance Work(shoulders:all)[/TD]
[TD]Upright Row[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD]Assistance Work(legs;calfs)[/TD]
[TD]Calf Raise[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 540"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"]Workout B (Wednesday)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD]Legs( hamstrings,quads,Calves)[/TD]
[TD]Walking Lunges[/TD]
[TD]Mandatory[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD]Lower Back[/TD]
[TD]Rack Pulls[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD]Upper Back[/TD]
[TD]Pull Ups[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD]Upper Back[/TD]
[TD]Rows[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[TD]Chest(upper)[/TD]
[TD]Incline Press[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD]Shoulders (all)[/TD]
[TD]Upright Row[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD]Assistance Work: (chest:lower)[/TD]
[TD]Cable Chest Dips[/TD]
[TD]Optional[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD]Assistance Work: (Shoulders:lateral)[/TD]
[TD]Cable Lateral Raise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD]assistance work: (shoulders:Posterior)[/TD]
[TD]Face Pulls[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD]Assistance Work: (calfs)[/TD]
[TD]Calfs[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

So 2 times a week i have the 5 main excersizes that (i beleive) should be in every routine (Squat, deadlift, Rows, Shoulder press and a bench press)
and have the previous shoulder routine which i had before, that i know works(1cm gain in 2 weeks) going twice a week.
ikept the upper back the same both days as i think there the 2 best upper back excersizes.
As what everyone was saying; get the good compounds in, the ones whihc will help you gain size, and add in the isometrics to add volume to the body parts which i want to bring u to help create proportions
total sets:
Chest: 6
Legs:6
Back:9
Shoulders:11
Arms: ?
=32 sets a week.
look better?
and any other way i could change?
 
Last edited:
Cut out these:

Flys
Cable Dips
Rear Delt Raises
Lateral Raises
Face Pulls

The muscles used are getting more than enough work already.

Decide at some point early on your grip-width for Upright Rows. Close grip will hit the front delts and biceps a bit more. A wider grip will hit the middle delt and less involvement from the front & biceps. Just pick a width and go with it, being consistent with help with form.
 
Closegrip upright rows will slowly wear and tear your rotator cuffs. Bad idea for most people.
 
Closegrip upright rows will slowly wear and tear your rotator cuffs. Bad idea for most people.


'Close' as a relative term. I certainly wouldn't suggest hands touching or anything close to it, but there's probably a 4-5 inch 'range' that the each hand can grip the BB. DB or Kettlebell style are also fine, though obviously the distinction of grip width .all but disappears
 
Of course you can, but by&large you won't be doing it by relying on isolation exercises.

In any case, you shouldn't be worrying about proportion until you've actually added the muscle to begin with.
 
ive gaines 64lbs since i started. of course im not relying on isolations. there simply there to add volume to those specific muscle groups.
Well, you said the base routine(mandatory) is ok, thats all that really couts.
 
Incline Bench, Upright Rows and close grip chins/rows are the best way I know how to build shoulders (the latter working the posterior side of course).

IME the advantage of incline is that you add volume to the pecs and train also the delts. Further with this angle you don´t compress the spine as much as with a near straight up seated shoulder press.

Although i am not aware health wise how much vertical overhead work is important for balance and joint health.
 
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