I think you made your best gains 8-10 months or so ago when Totez set you up a new program. Just food for thought. AFAIK, everything was working smoothly for you there. Without offense, it seems like maybe you caught the 'change for the sake of change' bug - we all do at some point.
HST/Wernbom Experiment
- Thread starter Sci
- Start date
Sci
Well-Known Member
All the difference though
Pure Conjecture.
Anyway...back to my log. These comments from the peanut gallery are interesting, but fairly useless.
. You and Rihad can go argue about loading in another log, but I still think that science supports my current approach quite solidly.*******
Now that it is getting warmer, and lighter out earlier, and making yet another attempt at the daily morning workouts.
Upper
Seated Row: 110x15, 170x8,8,8
Incline Press: 105x15, 165x8,8,6
UH Pulldown: 210x8,6,6
Dips: BWx12,12,12
Laterals: 20s x8,8,8
Lower
Leg Press: 270x15, 450x8,8,8
Lying Leg Curl: 70x15, 120x8,8,8
Standing Calf: 180x15, 320x8,8,8
Seated Calf: 120x8,8,8
THIS is how this log supposed to go, decent volume and 3x/ze eek frequency per bodypart.
Two separate ideas for sort of increasing frequency, if you have the time:
1) You don't have to have perfect symmetry per week in terms of upper/lower body. One option would be to train ~5 days per week (e.g. M-F) and have weekends off, alternating upper and lower body sessions. In any given two week block you're hitting a muscle 5 times, so an average of ~2.5 times per week. I always liked the weekends off method as you get more than one day at a time every week to relax/take a break.
2) You could also split up muscle groupings on an upper/lower type split to attempt to maximize overlap. Example:
Day 1/4
Anterior Chain Dominant Lower Body (leg press or high bar squat)
Chest (bench press)
Lats (chins)
Triceps (lying triceps extensions)
Day 2/5
Posterior Chain Dominant Lower Body (RDL)
Shoulders (overhead press)
Midback (rows)
Biceps (curls)
In this way, you're getting a lot of overlap such that muscles are probably being "hit" with the compounds more than just twice per week. Also a secondary advantage of only dealing with one "type" each of lower body, upper body push, and upper body pull in a given day. Versus, for example, having to do presses after bench or rows after chins (or vice versa).
Just some thoughts.
Last edited:
Sci
Well-Known Member
Good ideas Mikeynov.
The 1st one doesn't help me much, as I would consider it a success going consistently to the gym 5x/week, or 6x/week, either way. The main problem is just squeezing it into a packed schedule.
The second idea is very interesting, as I have noticed my second upper pulling or pressing movement tends to suffer. After experimenting, I found it best to do any kind of benching first, and the second pressing exercise second. For example, bench before military press, or Incline bench before dips. One day I tried to do shoulder press first, then bench...bad idea. Bench was shot since my deltoids were already fatigued.
For back, I found that doing cable rows before chins/pulldowns to be better. I was doing pulldowns first, but my cable row tended to be poor. If I do rows first, they don't mess up pulldowns that much. I think it has to do with form partly... cble rows and bench press require very strict form and small stabilizing muscles help that out. Better to be fresh for these lifts.
However, your second idea eliminates the problem altogether.
bench and chin on one day, and do the other press and pull on the second day... very interesting. Might think about this and put it in action.
The 1st one doesn't help me much, as I would consider it a success going consistently to the gym 5x/week, or 6x/week, either way. The main problem is just squeezing it into a packed schedule.
The second idea is very interesting, as I have noticed my second upper pulling or pressing movement tends to suffer. After experimenting, I found it best to do any kind of benching first, and the second pressing exercise second. For example, bench before military press, or Incline bench before dips. One day I tried to do shoulder press first, then bench...bad idea. Bench was shot since my deltoids were already fatigued.
For back, I found that doing cable rows before chins/pulldowns to be better. I was doing pulldowns first, but my cable row tended to be poor. If I do rows first, they don't mess up pulldowns that much. I think it has to do with form partly... cble rows and bench press require very strict form and small stabilizing muscles help that out. Better to be fresh for these lifts.
However, your second idea eliminates the problem altogether.
bench and chin on one day, and do the other press and pull on the second day... very interesting. Might think about this and put it in action.
Sci
Well-Known Member
I am definitely at the level where doing some sort of split is ideal. Deep into intermediate. Doing legs in a day of their win is essential at this point, as it takes a good 45 minutes for a decent volume leg workout, and I am doing much less volume for legs than Wernbom's meta analysis suggests.
(If I was following his volume recommendations, my leg workout would take about an hour, probably 90 minutes once I get things even heavier.)
Today legs day went well. Mostly maintaining thighs and growing calves right now.
Lower
Leg Press: 270x15, 470x8,8,8
Lying Leg Curl: 70x15, 125x8,8,8
Standing Calf: 180x15, 320x8,8,8
Seated Calf: 120x8,8,8
(If I was following his volume recommendations, my leg workout would take about an hour, probably 90 minutes once I get things even heavier.)
Today legs day went well. Mostly maintaining thighs and growing calves right now.
Lower
Leg Press: 270x15, 470x8,8,8
Lying Leg Curl: 70x15, 125x8,8,8
Standing Calf: 180x15, 320x8,8,8
Seated Calf: 120x8,8,8
Sci
Well-Known Member
Yes, Rihad, but it's a bit impractical and somewhat dangerous to train with "notable exceptions" of "90% to 230% of 1RM" loads.
So I'll stick with the "overall, moderate volumes of 30-60 reps with 70-85% 1RM loads" as is recommended for optimal hypertrophy Training.
I do agree that doing heavy clusters with high loads will require significantly lower volume than with moderate loads.
I may incorporate that into my training, and just cluster the reps using heavy weights.
So I'll stick with the "overall, moderate volumes of 30-60 reps with 70-85% 1RM loads" as is recommended for optimal hypertrophy Training.
I do agree that doing heavy clusters with high loads will require significantly lower volume than with moderate loads.
I may incorporate that into my training, and just cluster the reps using heavy weights.
HST_Rihad
Active Member
It's somewhat interesting that higher-load lower-volume training (90-98%, or more for negatives) can be better tolerated at 3 times per week frequency than 30-60 reps @85%, still following HST principles, still allowing strength to progress (assuming strength growth is eventually reflected in muscle growth). Meaning, higher volume at moderate load is more exhausting and takes more time to recover. As for "dangerous", if we work very close to failure and form inevitably starts getting sloppy, we can injure ourselves using 8-10RM too. Clustering with lower reps may even be safer because you know that your muscles work at a full fiber activation right from the start, so you can stay away from failure.
'Light' is being used in a relative sense. 8RM is quite light compared to your 1RM (or even 3RM). There's a 20% difference in terms of load (more or less).
The point is that with less load, you require more volume, which increases fatigue and recovery. I wouldn't worry about that though, because you have this going on;
The point is that with less load, you require more volume, which increases fatigue and recovery. I wouldn't worry about that though, because you have this going on;
Sci
Well-Known Member
Alex, what kind of program would you suggest if I were cutting? I think we all agree that high intensity, low volume is IDEAL for maintaining maximum muscle mass while dieting. What do you think in terms of loading and volume for a cutting program... I am curious, as this way of training with clusters of heavy reps seems to be your expertise. I would like to try a low volume approach for my next cut, at least.
- Try to keep volume per cluster low. Anything more than 5 reps is means you're doing more than you need to per cluster. They're utilised to manage fatigue from a programming perspective. You might be working at 5RM, but that doesn't mean you should do 5 reps per cluster. Do 3, or 4. No need to exhaust the CNS. You're already getting full fibre recruitment.
- Stick to 3-6RM range. Too heavy means that on low cals, you aren't going to make it session to session.
- Stick to compounds. Isolations are ridiculously taxing on connective tissue, joints especially. Additionally, if you want to drop the load for energy level reasons, then it's a lot easier to go from 120kg down to 115/110 than figure out what the right drop for a leg extension should be whilst still getting your fibre recruitment.
- Keep your per session volume low and your rest periods generous. You calorie restriction will cause the fat loss, not going gung-ho and using 90s rest periods when 3-5minutes is where you should be at.
- Don't be afraid to push yourself in terms of load if you're feeling it, and don't be afraid when you don't feel the massive DOMS the next day.
- Volume should be 10-14 reps per lift, per session. Load at ~85% - 90% 1RM (3-5/6RM range, realistically). You only need compounds. 3-5 lifts per session at most. Clusters should be 2-5 reps. If you can't get 4 reps on your first cluster, and you're expecting too, then drop it back one increment and for the next session.
-Stretch stuff out in the evening, but not too aggressively.
For a three days per week deal, I'd be like;
M:
10-15 squats
10-15 bench
8-12 deads
10-15 chins
W:
10-15 squats
10-15 bench
10-15 rows
10-15 OHP
F:
10-15 squats
10-15 bench
8-12 deads
10-15 chins
Something like that. Keep it simple, using a high load, good rest periods, low volume per cluster/bout, low volume per session and use calories to create deficit, not cardio or hefty weights sessions. I'd expect some strength gains, and when they stall, just to keep riding out the most recent consolidated gain.
Chins are a great max-stim exercise as well, food for thought. My chins only take 5-8mins total, generally.
This is about maintaining strength and mass on a cut, not bodybuilding/sculpting and weak points - key to remember this.
Sci
Well-Known Member
That looks like a good program for leaning out Alex. Thanks for the details. I will likely use some of this strategy for a cutting cycle.
I just don't have the appetite to keep bulking lately for some reason. I am hovering around 206, but seem sort of stuck here. I am sort of on the fence, but it would be a lot easier to just eat a small caloric deficit, and train with low volume...
Thanks again.
Today I tried sets of 5, I am going to explore some heavier territory before I finish this cycle. Hopefully I can gain a few more pounds using heavier loads and finish this cycle nicely.
Upper
Seated Row:175x5,5,5
Incline Press:175x5,5,5
Chins:BWx5,5,5
Dips:BW+50x5,5,5
I just don't have the appetite to keep bulking lately for some reason. I am hovering around 206, but seem sort of stuck here. I am sort of on the fence, but it would be a lot easier to just eat a small caloric deficit, and train with low volume...
Thanks again.
Today I tried sets of 5, I am going to explore some heavier territory before I finish this cycle. Hopefully I can gain a few more pounds using heavier loads and finish this cycle nicely.
Upper
Seated Row:175x5,5,5
Incline Press:175x5,5,5
Chins:BWx5,5,5
Dips:BW+50x5,5,5
Last edited: