Isolation in conjunction with core exercises do not forbid a well-rounded physique. I don't want to argue with you...your technical understanding is obviously superior to mine based on your apparent advanced knowledge of tissue and skeletal structure and stimulation. Enjoy your compounds...I will enjoy both. We don't need to agree on this point. Good luck.
Iso's ARE necessary
- Thread starter soflsun
- Start date
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(Martin Levac @ Sep. 11 2007,19:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm a big proponent of "do what you want". So, do what you want.</div>
I think that last statement pretty much sums it up.. I've been training on and off for 30 years and while I do isolations, no more than 20% in any given routine and sometimes as little as none.. I do they think they serve a purpose.. One muscle in particular is the triceps.. Compounds will work all 3 heads of the Tri but in order to exploit the long head to it's fullest potential, it's essential to do some type of isolation extension exercise.. Maybe I'm wrong and this may not be the case for everyone but it is certainly fact regarding how my tri's respond.. Calf’s, rear delts are just a few that come to mind..
Although someone just starting out doesn't need to be using 10lb DB's doing rear delts.. ( I have to laugh to myself when I see this) they would benefit much more form compounds.. Someone with a solid base at an advanced or intermediate level may see great results doing rear delts with DB's..
Basically I look at it from a simplistic point of view.. If I can kill two birds with one stone by doing compounds and get great results.. Why would I do it any other way....
(Martin Levac @ Sep. 11 2007,19:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm a big proponent of "do what you want". So, do what you want.</div>
I think that last statement pretty much sums it up.. I've been training on and off for 30 years and while I do isolations, no more than 20% in any given routine and sometimes as little as none.. I do they think they serve a purpose.. One muscle in particular is the triceps.. Compounds will work all 3 heads of the Tri but in order to exploit the long head to it's fullest potential, it's essential to do some type of isolation extension exercise.. Maybe I'm wrong and this may not be the case for everyone but it is certainly fact regarding how my tri's respond.. Calf’s, rear delts are just a few that come to mind..
Although someone just starting out doesn't need to be using 10lb DB's doing rear delts.. ( I have to laugh to myself when I see this) they would benefit much more form compounds.. Someone with a solid base at an advanced or intermediate level may see great results doing rear delts with DB's..
Basically I look at it from a simplistic point of view.. If I can kill two birds with one stone by doing compounds and get great results.. Why would I do it any other way....
I
imported_etothepii
Guest
I think the real benefit of photos is to chart progress. Take the same guy with pics every 6 months or so.
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(soflsun @ Sep. 11 2007,17:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Look, I'm really not trying to put anyone down here...that is honestly not my intention. I would agree that the individuals who hit core exercises very hard and still have limited size would probably not have done much different with the addition of iso's, but not necessarily. Maybe some of those lagging bodyparts do in fact need some specific attention to bring them up to speed with the larger/stronger groups. I just don't like the negative and condescending attitude towards people, especially newbies, who want to incorporate more exercises in their routine. "Simplify and Win," doesn't APPEAR to be the winning combo for everyone here.
Yes, pictures are pictures, not real life. But, if your a gorilla your not going to look like a chimp in a picture!</div>
You're also connecting two things in a way that may not be causal at all.
Meaning, you're taking the following observations:
* Lots of the regulars here emphasize "the basics" and feel isolation movements are overrated.
* Some of these same members aren't particularly hyooge.
Now, how are you getting that one is causing the other?
I mean, if we're just talking overall muscle size, wouldn't the simplest conclusion for people who aren't meeting your overall size standards simply be that they're not eating enough (for maximum hypertrophy - which is NOT everyone's goal)? That seems a more logical place to start.
This is why I brought up the powerlifters - if you show a picture of you being small on a forum like that, they're not going to tell you to add curls and tricep extensions, they're going to tell you to eat like a man.
(soflsun @ Sep. 11 2007,17:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Look, I'm really not trying to put anyone down here...that is honestly not my intention. I would agree that the individuals who hit core exercises very hard and still have limited size would probably not have done much different with the addition of iso's, but not necessarily. Maybe some of those lagging bodyparts do in fact need some specific attention to bring them up to speed with the larger/stronger groups. I just don't like the negative and condescending attitude towards people, especially newbies, who want to incorporate more exercises in their routine. "Simplify and Win," doesn't APPEAR to be the winning combo for everyone here.
Yes, pictures are pictures, not real life. But, if your a gorilla your not going to look like a chimp in a picture!</div>
You're also connecting two things in a way that may not be causal at all.
Meaning, you're taking the following observations:
* Lots of the regulars here emphasize "the basics" and feel isolation movements are overrated.
* Some of these same members aren't particularly hyooge.
Now, how are you getting that one is causing the other?
I mean, if we're just talking overall muscle size, wouldn't the simplest conclusion for people who aren't meeting your overall size standards simply be that they're not eating enough (for maximum hypertrophy - which is NOT everyone's goal)? That seems a more logical place to start.
This is why I brought up the powerlifters - if you show a picture of you being small on a forum like that, they're not going to tell you to add curls and tricep extensions, they're going to tell you to eat like a man.
I
imported_etothepii
Guest
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> they're going to tell you to eat like a man.
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No, like 10 men!
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No, like 10 men!
Look...I don't want to be the a**hole of this board. I like the concept of HST, I am keeping a chart in the training log section, and I am taking pictures to chart my progress. I should have titled the thread, "Iso's ARE necessary for me IMO." I came to a harsh conclusion without looking at all of the factors. What is evident though, is that you can be strong and not have that much hypertrophy...which is the opposite of why I am here. I am looking to build a certain physique, not lift a certain weight. There are many options available for me to reach my goals, and the addition of iso's is a viable option for me. I am not a power lifter nor do I plan to enter strength competitions for DL, Squats, Bench, etc. So I will focus on a variety of exercises to build a well-rounded look. I think another noteworthy point is that all newbies should not be automatically pushed into this direction of core only exercises, especially when the founder gives directions otherwise.
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(soflsun @ Sep. 11 2007,21:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Look...I don't want to be the a**hole of this board. I like the concept of HST, I am keeping a chart in the training log section, and I am taking pictures to chart my progress. I should have titled the thread, "Iso's ARE necessary for me IMO." I came to a harsh conclusion without looking at all of the factors. What is evident though, is that you can be strong and not have that much hypertrophy...which is the opposite of why I am here. I am looking to build a certain physique, not lift a certain weight. There are many options available for me to reach my goals, and the addition of iso's is a viable option for me. I am not a power lifter nor do I plan to enter strength competitions for DL, Squats, Bench, etc. So I will focus on a variety of exercises to build a well-rounded look. I think another noteworthy point is that all newbies should not be automatically pushed into this direction of core only exercises, especially when the founder gives directions otherwise.</div>
I don't think you've gotten aggressive replies at all, which is one of the very high points of this board, you can say stuff and people will actually respond in a civil way.
You're totally entitled to your opinion, but on the flip side, I strongly see the logic of encouraging beginners to concentrate on the basics before worrying about the minutia, which I'd consider isolation work to be.
That said, and on the subject of muscularity in general, I've had the sneaking suspicion for a while that a body part split (in the very least, an upper/lower type deal) probably is the way to go to have a better chance of maximizing one's own genetic potential for muscularity past some point, and though I wouldn't mind being more muscular, I also find body part training boring as ****.
So the issue of training, goals and the like ends up becoming a compromise of sorts, and at the end of the day you need to do something you enjoy and will stick with, even if what you're doing isn't "optimal" for all of your goals (and people have contradictory goals, for that matter).
(soflsun @ Sep. 11 2007,21:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Look...I don't want to be the a**hole of this board. I like the concept of HST, I am keeping a chart in the training log section, and I am taking pictures to chart my progress. I should have titled the thread, "Iso's ARE necessary for me IMO." I came to a harsh conclusion without looking at all of the factors. What is evident though, is that you can be strong and not have that much hypertrophy...which is the opposite of why I am here. I am looking to build a certain physique, not lift a certain weight. There are many options available for me to reach my goals, and the addition of iso's is a viable option for me. I am not a power lifter nor do I plan to enter strength competitions for DL, Squats, Bench, etc. So I will focus on a variety of exercises to build a well-rounded look. I think another noteworthy point is that all newbies should not be automatically pushed into this direction of core only exercises, especially when the founder gives directions otherwise.</div>
I don't think you've gotten aggressive replies at all, which is one of the very high points of this board, you can say stuff and people will actually respond in a civil way.
You're totally entitled to your opinion, but on the flip side, I strongly see the logic of encouraging beginners to concentrate on the basics before worrying about the minutia, which I'd consider isolation work to be.
That said, and on the subject of muscularity in general, I've had the sneaking suspicion for a while that a body part split (in the very least, an upper/lower type deal) probably is the way to go to have a better chance of maximizing one's own genetic potential for muscularity past some point, and though I wouldn't mind being more muscular, I also find body part training boring as ****.
So the issue of training, goals and the like ends up becoming a compromise of sorts, and at the end of the day you need to do something you enjoy and will stick with, even if what you're doing isn't "optimal" for all of your goals (and people have contradictory goals, for that matter).
countryboy
New Member
i personally as a newbie would ay HSt is not anti iso at all.
what i would say is that it deosnt beleive in the brotard mentality of havving to do 40 sets of 5 different exercises to really "hit the muscle and get the pump going".
i personally have found that set of extensions for tris and a set of some type of curl is enough direct work, after i get through bench,deads chins and rows for example.
what i would say is that it deosnt beleive in the brotard mentality of havving to do 40 sets of 5 different exercises to really "hit the muscle and get the pump going".
i personally have found that set of extensions for tris and a set of some type of curl is enough direct work, after i get through bench,deads chins and rows for example.
the_dark_master
New Member
My personnel take on HST, is that regardless of experience - all beginning HSTers should do the "Vanilla" no frills WO (ie compounds) for at least two cycles to "get into it" Then when they have a basic grounding, a foundation, they can start adding exercises/focus on lagging areas etc.
We see it all the time, with new members:
1 I'm jumping straight-in, without SD'ing
2 I'm starting with tens; because I'm a former HIT'er
3 I'm adding in iso's because otherwise my arms will whither and die lest I curl
4 I'm...
Like most systems/disciplines you have to start off at ground-zero. Back to basics is one of the fundamental principles of coaching - people who come here, do so because their present routine aint workin'
All we can advise is to buy into the concept & do HST from the ground up.
Otherwise **** 'em; HST will survive regardless.
We see it all the time, with new members:
1 I'm jumping straight-in, without SD'ing
2 I'm starting with tens; because I'm a former HIT'er
3 I'm adding in iso's because otherwise my arms will whither and die lest I curl
4 I'm...
Like most systems/disciplines you have to start off at ground-zero. Back to basics is one of the fundamental principles of coaching - people who come here, do so because their present routine aint workin'
All we can advise is to buy into the concept & do HST from the ground up.
Otherwise **** 'em; HST will survive regardless.
Fausto
HST Expert
Warning... fat rant ahead
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Look...I don't want to be the a**hole of this board.</div>
That is definitelly a good place to start!
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I came to a harsh conclusion without looking at all of the factors.</div>
You sure did, and I won't, but could have, seen it as somewhat personal...seeing that I am small...not a gorilla as such...started the Simplify and Win thread...am a proponent of components rather than isolations, although I view isos as necessary for people who have reached a certain level...but then only some of them anyway as many are a complete waste of time...IMO.
Although I have a fairly pressurized "9 - 5" job, a family, with normal run of the mill problems...often end up having to sacrifice workout days on the family altar for obvious and prioratized reasons...and so working out is good and a must but it is also part of a greater purpose in this case to keep me healthy and make me look leaner and meaner...but it is not the be all and end all.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What is evident though, is that you can be strong and not have that much hypertrophy....</div>
Correct again!
If you look at people like Pavel Tsatsouline for example you'll see that strength is a function largely neural in origin, with some side effect of hypertrophy but not necessary hypertrophy alone at all!
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">which is the opposite of why I am here. I am looking to build a certain physique, not lift a certain weight. There are many options available for me to reach my goals, and the addition of iso's is a viable option for me.</div>
And so...we are here to help and guide you because we've been cranking out HST for a fair amount of time, and can in fact give you the guidance to let you accomplish your goals, that is all. Whether you want to use isolation galore...well it is entirely up to you, they have a place...but don't let them start stealing valuable time off your program, use them wisely and where necessary.
Rant done!
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Look...I don't want to be the a**hole of this board.</div>
That is definitelly a good place to start!
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I came to a harsh conclusion without looking at all of the factors.</div>
You sure did, and I won't, but could have, seen it as somewhat personal...seeing that I am small...not a gorilla as such...started the Simplify and Win thread...am a proponent of components rather than isolations, although I view isos as necessary for people who have reached a certain level...but then only some of them anyway as many are a complete waste of time...IMO.
Although I have a fairly pressurized "9 - 5" job, a family, with normal run of the mill problems...often end up having to sacrifice workout days on the family altar for obvious and prioratized reasons...and so working out is good and a must but it is also part of a greater purpose in this case to keep me healthy and make me look leaner and meaner...but it is not the be all and end all.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What is evident though, is that you can be strong and not have that much hypertrophy....</div>
Correct again!
If you look at people like Pavel Tsatsouline for example you'll see that strength is a function largely neural in origin, with some side effect of hypertrophy but not necessary hypertrophy alone at all!
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">which is the opposite of why I am here. I am looking to build a certain physique, not lift a certain weight. There are many options available for me to reach my goals, and the addition of iso's is a viable option for me.</div>
And so...we are here to help and guide you because we've been cranking out HST for a fair amount of time, and can in fact give you the guidance to let you accomplish your goals, that is all. Whether you want to use isolation galore...well it is entirely up to you, they have a place...but don't let them start stealing valuable time off your program, use them wisely and where necessary.
Rant done!
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
Just add weight to your bar ove time and eat and well you will grow.
But here is an expierement for you see how much weight you can add to and isolation exercise over the next 8 weeks.
And then do the same with a compound...most likely you will be stronger in the end in compounds...which is why they are very useful.
But again...nothing wrong with some good ol isolations!
But here is an expierement for you see how much weight you can add to and isolation exercise over the next 8 weeks.
And then do the same with a compound...most likely you will be stronger in the end in compounds...which is why they are very useful.
But again...nothing wrong with some good ol isolations!
I
imported_etothepii
Guest
It's been a while since I've read lall the HST literature, but if I remember right, compounds is not an HST principle. Compounds are recommended over iso's in a full body workout to get the most out of your time, but isos aren't forbidden. Bryan's routine contains isos, but it's not chocked full of them.
It's a popular view on the board these days to do a powerl lifting type routine using HST principles. Lots of bang for the buck, strength and size gains.
It's a popular view on the board these days to do a powerl lifting type routine using HST principles. Lots of bang for the buck, strength and size gains.
Fausto,
I'm glad you didn't take it personally, as it surely was not directed at anyone specifically. I appreciate your willingness to help teach and guide those who seek advice, as you have already done for me. I agree that "isolation galore" would be a waste of time, but a few in combination with the simplify and win routine is a good combo for me. Thanks.
I'm glad you didn't take it personally, as it surely was not directed at anyone specifically. I appreciate your willingness to help teach and guide those who seek advice, as you have already done for me. I agree that "isolation galore" would be a waste of time, but a few in combination with the simplify and win routine is a good combo for me. Thanks.
Fausto
HST Expert
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">but a few in combination with the simplify and win routine is a good combo for me. Thanks. </div>
Exactly my point, also one can definitely see that you did not start lifting the other day as many of the newbies have, thus our persistence with the compounds as Eto puts it, more bang for the buck.
Also isolations for you (as I do too) would most likely be useful as you have already developed a "base" upon which to build some extra size...I'd say this as good a time as any to look at definition as well.
Exactly my point, also one can definitely see that you did not start lifting the other day as many of the newbies have, thus our persistence with the compounds as Eto puts it, more bang for the buck.
Also isolations for you (as I do too) would most likely be useful as you have already developed a "base" upon which to build some extra size...I'd say this as good a time as any to look at definition as well.
Fausto
HST Expert
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">C'mon, I don't need anyone else telling me I'm fat </div>
And who on earth mentioned fat! I mean definition, using isos to perfect it!
I must confess, I do like some of Gironda's theories, not all I know but some kinda drive the nail home!
And who on earth mentioned fat! I mean definition, using isos to perfect it!
I must confess, I do like some of Gironda's theories, not all I know but some kinda drive the nail home!
UFGatorDude30
New Member
Interesting thread indeed
. I'm glad someone came and stirred things up to get some different opinions, as I will admit to, having gone from nearly doing all iso's to doing absolutely none. It seems nearly anything I could say has already been said in some fashion. Reiterating what most have said, I too believe that compounds should be the primary, and possibly only type of exercise that a NOVICE lifter should adhere to. As they make progress in both size and strength, which obviously requires a good diet and consistent lifting, they will need to incorporate some iso work to hit certain muscles that are only used as support muscles in the compounds. I just started my 3rd HST cycle, and I am considering putting in some iso's on my next one. My chest has seen more growth in the last 3 months doing bench and dips than I did in 3 years of flies, machines, cables, and pec deck work. Although I do not know how much of this must be credited to my recent focus on diet, I owe at least some of it to my adherence to compounds... to pack on some mass which hopefully soon I can start to chisel down with some iso's.
I
imported_domineaux
Guest
I do isos and have since I started HST. When you lift heavy weights the isos usually affect other muscle groups. You can't pick up a weight from a rack to do an iso you haven't involved other muscles.
Bryan Haycock has never stood over my shoulder to say no no...
Micro-traumatize the muscles + eat plenty of nutritious food + get adequate rest = good results
If you microtraumatize you bicep or tricep so what. You should still get some results. Is that as effecient as compounds? Probably not, but still you can get results.
I prefer compounds for a specific reason. I can get through a full workout in less than 1-1/4 hour every workout. I know the way I eat, rest and workout that I am not walking out of that gym catabolic.
I've seen it, and experienced being catabolic. You want to burn out fast, you want to lack the energy to go on, you want to drag your ass around all day, you want have exhausting workouts. You just let yourself go catabolic you can enjoy all those negative things, and more.
It is critical to me for my training that I remain as anabolic as possible... and that is tough, because I'm a natural BBr. You must maintain a good training discipline and stay with it.
Bryan Haycock has never stood over my shoulder to say no no...
Micro-traumatize the muscles + eat plenty of nutritious food + get adequate rest = good results
If you microtraumatize you bicep or tricep so what. You should still get some results. Is that as effecient as compounds? Probably not, but still you can get results.
I prefer compounds for a specific reason. I can get through a full workout in less than 1-1/4 hour every workout. I know the way I eat, rest and workout that I am not walking out of that gym catabolic.
I've seen it, and experienced being catabolic. You want to burn out fast, you want to lack the energy to go on, you want to drag your ass around all day, you want have exhausting workouts. You just let yourself go catabolic you can enjoy all those negative things, and more.
It is critical to me for my training that I remain as anabolic as possible... and that is tough, because I'm a natural BBr. You must maintain a good training discipline and stay with it.