Korte's program

Discussion in 'Strength-Specific Training (SST)' started by scientific muscle, Jan 27, 2007.

  1. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Ohmigod Sci, you just talked me out of doing HST next cycle!!! That sounds perfect for what I want to do right now after the 5x5!!! You got a URL for that version? I need also to know if I need to deload for it or just jump right in. Somewhen soon I need to cut a little, so I need to be doing heavy stuff.
     
  2. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    If you go back in this thread, I posted a link to Korte's program and somewhere Stevejones posted an excel spreadsheet.

    <u>Quick overview of how to do 3x3.
    </u>
    Find your 1 rm for Squat, Bench, Deadlift. Add 25 lb.s to squat, 10 lb.s to bench and 15 lb.s to deadlift, this is your new projected 1 rm to use in programming the cycle.

    Phase 1- Squat 5-8x5, Bench 6-8x6, Deadlift 5-8x5
    Week 1- 58% of 1 rm
    Week 2- 60% of 1 rm
    Week 3- 62% of 1 rm
    Week 4- 64% of 1 rm

    Phase 2- Monday- Squat 3x3 with 60% of 1rm, Bench 5x4 with 60% of 1 rm, Deadlift- 1 or 2 reps with 80% of max.
    Wednesday- Squat 3x3 w 60%, Bench 1 or 2 reps with 80%, Deadlift 3x3 with 60%.
    Friday- Squat- 1 or 2 reps with 80%, bench 5x4 w 60%, deadlift 3x3 w 60%.

    Eack week is exactly the same except for the exercise you are maxing out on. The max starts out at 80% and every week progresses 5%, so 85% in week 2, 90% in week 3, and 95% in week 4. The exercises you are not maxing out on, stay the same for weight, sets and reps...this is only technique training.

    After the 8 week cycle, you can retest your 1 rm or simple calculate it and add weight again for the next cycle.

    The cycles are done back to back with no rest between. Korte only recommends resting a couple of times year, immediately following your powerlifting meets.
     
  3. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Since I am a beginner and I don't know my 1 rms, I am doing it differently. I guessed my 1 rm, started with about 50% of that and I am doing 5x5 3 times/week and increasing the loads every workout. As the loads get heavier and I cannot complete all 5 sets, I will drop the volume to accomodate the progressive load, until I am doing a single 1 rm. I will then use my new 1 rm numbers to program my first proper cycle of 3x3.
     
  4. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

  5. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    I don't think this program is for you quad. I have never seen you interested in powerlifting, and someone with back-pain history as you have should probably not be doing traditional squats and deadlifts 3 times/week, and definitely not going for an all out max attempt!
    Most of the volume is light-weight (60% of 1 rm), so the only heavy stuff comes in phase 2 with the max-attempts. You can't skip the max attempts in this program. I think you are better off doing a 5x5 or HST because the rep ranges are more diverse without having to do max singles.
    Just my opinion. Do what you want. [​IMG]
     
  6. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    You could be right, Sci, but I have to find out. (ma didn't make us smart or pretty; but I can lift heavy objects) I may just do doubles and forget all about singles or something like that. As for the back, you can see what's up here:
    http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....y111491
     
  7. stevejones

    stevejones Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Feb. 20 2007,17:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You could be right, Sci, but I have to find out. (ma didn't make us smart or pretty; but I can lift heavy objects) I may just do doubles and forget all about singles or something like that. As for the back, you can see what's up here:
    http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....y111491</div>
    I don't think you should do it.  Maybe do the bench press, pull ups, and leg press.  

    My lower back is getting the crap worked out of it on this routine.  After squats it's so sore I have to walk around on my hands and knees a little while before I start benching, then after a couple of minutes I'm fine again (part of that is sloppy form toward the end because i'm getting tired).  I'm doing the full routine (8 sets of everything), so I'm putting a lot of stress on it, but if I had a back problem I don't think I'd even do 5 sets.  

    Anyway, if you do it...do the squats first, then the bench, then the deads.  Don't do squats and deads back to back.
     
  8. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I did that the other day without a belt and suffered two days for it. I don't know if it was either or both, but my back was back in the hurt locker.
    I guess HST is in the works after this cycle after all. Thanx fellas.
    I'd posted a question on rep ranges in another thread (HST tweak) but got no answer. Have to find that.
     
  9. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Sorry, I am not posting my log here. I started training with very light weights and working on my form, I just now starting to progress to decent poundages. My first run I am going to keep as a private experiment. Once I have determined my new maxes I will do proper cycle and log it.
     
  10. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    I am getting near the end of my 'beginner's' version of Korte's program. I am doing the volume phase 5x5 for squats/bench/deads. Instead of his progression though, I started light and simple added weight every workout.

    ATG squats are killing me, I did 200 lb.s today for 5 sets of 5 and I was shot, partly from doing 5x5 of the big 3 lifts, 3 days/week. I benched 165 for 5x5 and was also shot. I loaded up the bar with 255 for deadlifts, but my back and legs were so shot from doing this program that I ended up doing only 5 sets of one! Then had to drop the load to finish.
    I swear the volume is so high on Korte's program that I am actually losing strength from overtraining. I PMed stevejones and he said the same thing, he is in the last week of phase 1, is sore all over and is feeling very weak.
    I believe that phase 1 (volume) is designed to get you conditioned and overtrain your body somewhat with the high frequency and volume, and then in phase 2, the volume drops dramatically and it is time to push for new PRs.
    Supposedly phase one is 'overreaching' and then in phase 2 your body recovers from the insane volume and compensates with huge strength increases (typical dual-factor theory).
    Rigth now I am so sore and weakened, it is hard to imagine hitting new PRs in the coming weeks of phase 2. My entire back, shoulders and thighs are basically sore 24 hours day all week long, but I am happy to say I am as big as ever and had to quit cutting because my body is putting on muscle mass so well, even in caloric deficit. My thighs have grown an inch each and that was while cutting and losing a half-inch on my waist. I decided to quit cutting and let nature take its course and pile musle mass on my back and thighs!

    I will let you guys know how it goes in phase 2 and if I actually do break my PRs or not.
     
  11. stevejones

    stevejones Member

    <div>
    (scientific muscle @ Feb. 28 2007,22:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am getting near the end of my 'beginner's' version of Korte's program.  I am doing the volume phase 5x5 for squats/bench/deads.  Instead of his progression though, I started light and simple added weight every workout.

    ATG squats are killing me, I did 200 lb.s today for 5 sets of 5 and I was shot, partly from doing 5x5 of the big 3 lifts, 3 days/week.  I benched 165 for 5x5 and was also shot.  I loaded up the bar with 255 for deadlifts, but my back and legs were so shot from doing this program that I ended up doing only 5 sets of one!  Then had to drop the load to finish.
    I swear the volume is so high on Korte's program that I am actually losing strength from overtraining.  I PMed stevejones and he said the same thing, he is in the last week of phase 1, is sore all over and is feeling very weak.
    I believe that phase 1 (volume) is designed to get you conditioned and overtrain your body somewhat with the high frequency and volume, and then in phase 2, the volume drops dramatically and it is time to push for new PRs.
    Supposedly phase one is 'overreaching' and then in phase 2 your body recovers from the insane volume and compensates with huge strength increases (typical dual-factor theory).
    Rigth now I am so sore and weakened, it is hard to imagine hitting new PRs in the coming weeks of phase 2.  My entire back, shoulders and thighs are basically sore 24 hours day all week long, but I am happy to say I am as big as ever and had to quit cutting because my body is putting on muscle mass so well, even in caloric deficit.  My thighs have grown an inch each and that was while cutting and losing a half-inch on my waist.  I decided to quit cutting and let nature take its course and pile musle mass on my back and thighs!

    I will let you guys know how it goes in phase 2 and if I actually do break my PRs or not.</div>
    Yep, it's a bitch for me too. 24 sets of squats per week sucks, and my hips are fried, but I have one more workout until I start the competition phase and get to recuperate. I think I'll be significantly stronger once I recuperate, only time will tell.
     
  12. stevejones

    stevejones Member

    I'll be traveling for a week, and have been asked by a few to report my progress with Korte's stuff, so wanted to write about my experience with the high volume part of the program before I take off.  I still have one workout left on the high volume phase (Friday), and then I go into a low volume easy phase for 4 weeks on this program.  

    Size:  

    I'm shocked that my legs have gotten thicker on this program.  My thighs are a solid 32&quot;, and they have never been this large before.  Teardrops around kneecap are swollen up also.  I'm pleasantly surprised at this growth, because I honestly didn't expect it.  I'm only doing this program for strength.  I believe my arms may be slightly larger, because according to the tape they have increased their size by about 1/4&quot;, but this could have something to do with the time I measured them.  Perhaps this arm growth is just wishful thinking--I don't trust anything under 1/2&quot;.  The growth in my legs, however, is definitely real.  I think my lats are wasting away.  Deadlifts do stimulate my lats, but nothing like weighted chin ups.  Chest measurement is almost an inch LESS.  Shoulder measurement (put tape around shoulders) is 1/2&quot; larger.  

    Difficulty:

    The squats suck, the deadlifts are hard, and the bench press is easy.  The bench has been nothing but a 8 set break in between the squats and deadlifts.   This program looks a lot easier on paper than it is in the gym.  

    Benefits:

    I had no idea how much I had to learn about my deadlift and squat form.  Doing the exercises this much teaches you alot about your little quirks that help you in the exercise.  I widened my grip on the deadlift by about 1/4&quot;, pointed feet out a little wider in the squat, changed angle of my head slightly as I look up, etc. etc.  No one watching me would notice these things because the changes are so small.  I see why olympic lifters work on their actual lifts so often.  Frequency really helps.  



    Injuries:

    Unfortunately, I might not walk away from all this high volume unscathed.  I think I've developed patellar tendinitis.  It's not a severe case of it, so am just doing ALOT of stretching (painful because i'm so sore), and heat before/ice after workouts.  I think that the ATG squats I do really work my quads and glutes, but not my hamstrings enough, so there is an imbalance between my quad strength and hamstrings, which often precipitates patellar tendinitis.   I also dove into the volume a little too soon and should have taken a week to slowly get into this.  

    Strength increases:

    So far there is NONE.  I'm burned out and weaker.  Still have to recuperate during the next 4 weeks of the program (dual factor).  If I'm not stronger 4 weeks from now then the program will not have worked for me.  The size gain is nice, but I'm after strength.  


    My past 4 weeks:
    Workout M,W,F
    Squats, Bench, Deadlifts


    Total sets for Week 1: Weight used--58% of projected 1rm*
    16 sets squats//5 reps per set
    22 sets bench//6 &quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;
    16 sets deads//5 &quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;

    Total sets for Week 2: Weight used--60% of projected 1rm
    18 sets squats//5 reps per set
    24 sets bench//6 &quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;
    18 sets deads//5 &quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;

    Total sets for Week 3: Weight used--62% of projected 1rm
    24 sets squats//5 reps per set
    24 sets bench//6 &quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;
    24 sets deads//5 &quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;


    Projected** Total sets for Week 4: Weight used--64% of projected 1rm
    24 sets squats//5 reps per set
    24 sets bench//6 &quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;
    24 sets deads//5 &quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;

    *Projected 1rm on squat was my max plus 25 lbs
    Projected 1rm on bench was my max plus 20 lbs
    Projected 1rm on deads was my max plus 30lbs

    **Still have one day left
     
  13. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    I am noticing similar body response. My thighs are growing like mad, but my lats definitely are not getting much work. I noticed also that this program is a bit imbalanced in that the squat and deadlift are so similar so the knees, hips and back take a thrashing, while the benching is easy as steve said.
    Something like westside would probably be more balanced, as they do bench/upper body twice/week and combine squats/deadlift work into twice/week lower body/core work.
    As far as bodybuilding goes....definitely this program is purely for powerlifting, the biceps and lats don't get much attention. I am thinking something like the 5x5 routine quadancer is doing is more balanced, with deads only once/week and Rows on the other days.
    On the other hand, I am happy about the thigh growth and as steve said, this program really gets you into using correct form with so much of constantly doing the big 3.

    I don't have the knee pain, (bad form on squats steve?) as this program for me has worked the hamstrings more than the quadriceps. My hamstrings and lower back have been sore for weeks on end. (My hamstrings are looking enormous lately!) But Steve is a different body and is lightyears ahead of me strengthwise, so this could be the factor.

    I am hoping for new PRs in the next few weeks also. But honestly I am thinking to do my powerlifting training differently in the future. I am undecided between Starr's 5x5 (adapted to powerlifting) or dabbling in Westside. I have been doing a TON of reading about westside and still don't quite get it. I have found the best thing to learn is simply look at training logs of veterans doing it.

    Will keep ya posted! [​IMG]
     
  14. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    One more thing for the labcoats out there....
    I have learned first hand that VOLUME (total workload) really is a HUGE factor in hypertrophy. The loads I have been using are light (around 60% of 1 rm) but the total workload each week for the thighs is tremendous. I have never had thigh growth like this, and I was CUTTING and losing weight while they grew.

    I know Dan has voiced this several times, and at hypertrophy-research.com we have discussed this several times and I am decided now from my experience that high volume is KEY to hypertrophy.

    I would recommend HSTers to keep up the 3 times/week training and sticking to basic, heavy, compound exercises. But one thing I would recommend is to INCREASE TOTAL REPS PER BODYPART, if you can handle it.
    For example doing a simplified HST routine:
    Alternating
    Day 1:Squats, Rows, Bench, Military Press.
    Day 2:Deadlifts, Chinups, Dips, DB Upright rows.
    In this routine there are only 4 exercise per workout, I would recommend doing at least 30 reps per exercise. This means doing 2 sets of 15s, 3 sets of 10s and 6 sets of 5s. If you are doing something like 8 or more different exercises, then 15-20 reps per exercise is probably fine. (which is what Dan and Bryan usually recommend).

    *PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT!
     
  15. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Do sheiko, then see how much you like volume !
     
  16. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (Aaron_F @ Mar. 02 2007,02:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Do sheiko, then see how much you like volume !</div>
    Something like this?

    Beginners Sheiko
     
  17. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Thats just the beginer program


    Once you go past the begining phase he goes to more volume/frequency.

    In some he is benching 4x weekly, squatting 2-3 and pulling 1-2, higher intensity,

    Some of his other work involves 2x daily training 3x weekly, and all that.

    his bench program is around 5x weekly in the volume/prepatory phase, and that heads down to 4/3x weekly in the intensification phase.

    Smolov squat cycle involves squatting 3-4x weekly, 75-85% 1rm on occasions, rather high volume.
     
  18. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Is he human or just a chemistry experiment? [​IMG]

    Kinda makes overtraining with HST seem like a very remote possibilty.

    Seriously, though, are his programs mainly designed for roiders? I'm pretty certain that I would find even the beginners Sheiko program a very tall order.
     
  19. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    non-users do it,

    but its not something you jump straight into, but build up to. Sheikos programs get more complex as you get stronger (related to their classification system).
     
  20. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Oh the PAIN! [​IMG] Those russians love pain. [​IMG]
     

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