Martial Arts and Bodybuilding!

S

_Simon_

Active Member
I REEEEEEEEEALLY wanna start karate again, and i'm just thinking how demanding karate is physically, whether it will impede on my bodybuilding goals hehe

Totz, i think i remember reading that you do Wing Chun??? how do you go with that? (in terms of gaining mass and martial arts training)

it's just that there might be loooots of pushups and static holds in stances, lactic acid burning... haha! and lots of explosive punches and so on

i'm thinking, saaay 2-3 times a week doing karate ay
 
Well, to be honest, I couldn't do both at the same time and eventually gave up Wing Chun for weightlifting. But... that was because I didn't have time for both. I actually did manage to gain mass during my HST cycles that I did at the same time as my Wing Chun training. I think my results were actually pretty good, if I recall correctly. It just took more calories.
I never had a problem with overtraining either... You could just treat it as cardio, add in some more calories on those days and see what happens. If you have time constraints, I would recommend going to twice a week training for each, so you are lifting two days a week and doing your martial arts twice a week.

Oh, and if you are serious about martial arts, I'd recommend dropping karate in favor of some form of Kung Fu.
 
You'll be fine. You'll just need more calories. I did Judo while working out 3 days a week. If you've ever grappled you know that stuff gets exhausting (at least when you're new it does). There were Saturdays when I would come home from class and pass out on my bed for a few hours with my uniform still on. I still gained though.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Oh, and if you are serious about martial arts, I'd recommend dropping karate in favor of some form of Kung Fu.</div>

True, true. Japanese systems evolved around samurai combat. They're great for taking out guys wearing armor and swords, or if you like the historical side of those systems. The Chinese though, have been at it a lot longer.

Really though, whatever Karate you pick up work at finding the best teacher you can. Forget titles and associations. That's just organizational hobbyism. Find the real deal.
 
AH okay thanks for that yeah! i guess i was thinking of all the physical training and so that i might get run down, or just my gains would not be as good due to errrmm excessive muscular use HAHAHAHA
biggrin.gif
jk

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Oh, and if you are serious about martial arts, I'd recommend dropping karate in favor of some form of Kung Fu.</div>

ARGH! not THIS argument again!
biggrin.gif
didn't all martial arts come from the SAME place? although true, it developed differently in china and japan, well if i can train to defend myself against a dude in complete armour, imagine how good that would be against a NON-armoured dude!!!
biggrin.gif


but yeah, why do think karate is not a 'serious' way in martial arts??? i understand why the commercial/business type ones are not (i trained in one for awhile, and i could see that it was more of a business than a serious martial art), but yes!
but do you mean that from a self-defence perspective? or a spiritual/budo or character development perspective?

and yeah TOTALLY agree QuantumPositron, but it's hard finding a teacher that would cater for my goals, cos i have graaand goals HAHA

thanks guys!
 
No, they don't all come from the same place.

Guys in armor require different tactics. You can't punch through steel. Hence joint breaking (there's no tapping out in medieval Japan). Truth be told, Muhammed Ali used a hip chambered corkscrew punch in a few bouts and it really rocked. The boxing association made him give it up.

spiritual budo character development stuff is what happens when the traditionalism of Japanese culture preserves its samurai heritage during industrialization and and then exports it to America, where it meets pop psychology, the remnants of chivalry, and males in need of an identity.

I've admittedly never seen any karate better than the shopping mall variety. I did meet a man once who was capable in two systems of Karate. One he taught publicly in the D.C. area, the other was taught only to family members. He had an outstanding build and a ponytail that came down to his belt. He seemed legit. I wish I could have chatted with him about his stuff. He made the funniest jokes at lunch.

The Chinese aren't into &quot;ways&quot; unless you're talking about the Taoist systems - and those are an adjunct. The whole way thing isn't ancient. Its 20th century. The Japanese no longer needed their militarism. In fact it was illegal post WWII. So the old teachers, banned from warrior hood and mortified by Hiroshima, decided to go philosophical and peaceful like. The new justification for learning H2H was instilling morality and character. This is when/where Judo and Aikido came into existence, along with the belt system concept. The Japanese got the whole Way thing from the Zen Buddhists, who came from China where they are called Ch'an Buddhists. The Ch'an folk got it from the Taoists, who, according to Lao Tzu, are older than god. That's the history of Way stuff in a nutshell. If its your thing, read up on Zen, Ch'an, and Taoism, in addition to Budo and the samurai.

Grand goals. Do you mean 12 th degree grand ultimate master with 17 strips on his belt or being able to rip bark off a tree with your fingers? If you're into barehanded logging then you have to be good at finding people. I've found quite a few. Some examples:

Reading a book on MA, guy walked by and commented. It developed into a conversation. Turns out he and a few friends were learning Tiger from a Chinese immigrant in the guy's backyard.

Worked alongside a Vietnamese during an internship. Got to know him a little. He knew some stuff his Chinese father taught him. I visited their restaurant a few times and ordered liberally. After a lot of diplomacy (and getting laughed at for mentioning Tae Kwon Do) his dad talked to me. He had learned some stuff from his father, who spent some time at Shaolin, but he wouldn't teach anything substantial to his kids (or me) because he was afraid it would make them violent. He got very quiet when I said the word &quot;Ch'i.&quot; It almost ended the conversation.

Wrote some book authors I liked. Got a few replies. The first turned out to be a generous charlatan (he sent me one of his VHS tapes free of charge - from Australia). The second I couldn't tell. The third was the real deal. He continues to impress me.

He introduced me to the Karate teacher I mentioned previously. Also introduced me to a gentleman that spent 9 years learning a system from a master in India. Also introduced me to a guy who was raised by an ex-Chinese assasin. That guy, in one person's words &quot;is a phenomena.&quot; About every 2 weeks I consider moving nearby one of these individuals. Especially the last one.

You gotta look around.

Good luck.
 
My basis for my argument is that my Kung Fu school goes to a yearly tournament that includes Tae Kwon Do and Karate schools. We throw kids in the ring who've only been in the class for 9 months up to a year. You have to be in for at least 6 months before our school will let you compete.
Anyway, we regularly get put up against people who've studied Karate for 750+ years and we almost always win. One of our guys, last year, fought three different people back to back, won each match. The third match, the guy he was fighting actually gave up midway through because he was so pissed that he couldn't touch our guy.

Anyway, my main gripe (aside from the above) between karate and kung fu is that karate relies a lot more physical strength, absorbing blows through blocks, etc, while kung fu uses leverage and such so that you don't have to have great strength in order to cause a LOT of damage. Also, most styles don't employ a lot of blocks. Instead, you use an attack to defend yourself, or you redirect blows, etc.
Karate can result in joint problems, etc, later on in life. Obviously kung fu can too, but I think the chances are a lot less.


Anyway, the whole point is that, yes, you can pursue both bodybuilding and martial arts at the same time. In fact, if you are in martial arts and you DON'T go into the gym, you are making a grave mistake.
 
Tot,

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My basis for my argument is that my Kung Fu school goes to a yearly tournament that includes Tae Kwon Do and Karate schools.</div>

That sounds really cool.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In fact, if you are in martial arts and you DON'T go into the gym, you are making a grave mistake.</div>

Ever used a Kwan Do (quando, Kawn Dao..) ? An old cavalry weapon used to take out footmen. There's a few schools that use the 45 lb variety for strength training. I always liked the sound of it, but never came across a shop with the heavy kind. Some people tell you've gotta make your own.

Now that I think about it, I guess I could just use an Olympic bar. Weight distribution?
 
Hello guys,

I don't want to be disrespectful in any way but Kyokushin kaikan (a karate style) is regarded as the most effective martial art as of today. I did saw many combats vs many styles over the net and honestly I'm impressed, and btw in competition, they aren't allowed to throw even a single punch.

Regards

Blizz
 
Please prove your statement. I've never heard any martial art ever officially called &quot;the most effective martial art&quot; because that is retarded.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">(and getting laughed at for mentioning Tae Kwon Do) </div>

Forgive my ignorance, but why were you laughed at for mentioning TKD?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">spiritual budo character development stuff is what happens when the traditionalism of Japanese culture preserves its samurai heritage during industrialization and and then exports it to America, where it meets pop psychology, the remnants of chivalry, and males in need of an identity.</div>

hehehe! nice theories
biggrin.gif
but yeah i get what you're getting at

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've admittedly never seen any karate better than the shopping mall variety.</div>

gotta look ;)

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The whole way thing isn't ancient.</div>

it depends on what you mean by that, but it doesn't really matter to me, NOR does tradition ay, probably a bit off topic-ish, meh!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If its your thing, read up on Zen, Ch'an, and Taoism, in addition to Budo and the samurai.</div>

YES! precisely!
biggrin.gif
i'm really into Zen and Budo philosophy, yet no karate school i've found directly teaches this through its training, but i wanna incorporate it into my training for myself. i guess many people do martial arts for many different reasons, and i want to keep on doing them for ALL the reasons martial arts are done, i won't limit myself to one or two reasons i don't see the point. ;)

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Grand goals. Do you mean 12 th degree grand ultimate master with 17 strips on his belt or being able to rip bark off a tree with your fingers?</div>

HEHEHE! i don't care so much about titles nor grades, but my own personal character and spiritual development as well as effective self-defence training.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My basis for my argument is that my Kung Fu school goes to a yearly tournament that includes Tae Kwon Do and Karate schools.</div>

Tournaments are not the best measure for an effective martial art, but that's really interesting what you're saying. was that karate-ka missing him from the other guy evading? or from attack redirection???

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Anyway, my main gripe (aside from the above) between karate and kung fu is that karate relies a lot more physical strength, absorbing blows through blocks, etc,</div>

hmm from all the training i've done and researched also there is no absorbing at ALL going on, simply attack redirection, eg an straight punch towards the face is not met with just a hand/forearm stopping right there to create a perpendicular 'block', it is blocked by pushing it UP with the forearm from underneath the strike.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't want to be disrespectful in any way but Kyokushin kaikan (a karate style) is regarded as the most effective martial art as of today. </div>

HEEEEEY!
biggrin.gif
that's the style i was thinking of taking up! FUNNY THAT! i was previously in a non-contact 'family friendly' martial art, but no that's not for me ay although you still get many benefits from training in it.

as for it being the MOST effective martial art, i would disagree simply due to the fact that although it is a full-contact style, head punches are not allowed so therefore bad habits develop there in keeping your guard dropped for only body hits. (apart from kicks to the head, that IS allowed ;) )

thanks guys
biggrin.gif
 
There could be several reasons why he laughed at me for it. In Chinese Boxing Masters and Methods Robert Smith recounts an episode when a then known Korean Karate master visited Taiwan to demonstrate his martial art to the Chinese boxers. The Chinese at the meeting were thoroughly unimpressed. Smith's own teacher remarked that the Korean system was &quot;good for defending oneself against women and small children&quot; and walked away shaking his head. Understand that the Chinese have a vast number of systems within their borders. From Smith's book alone its evident that they fight each other frequently both within sanctioned tournaments as well as in informal duels. And they don't often wear pads. That sort of environment breeds a knowledge of what you can do versus what other people can do. If my coworker's father had fought TKD people before in an alley or a ring perhaps he thought little of it.

If you examine modern TKD from a technical perspective you'll see that its comprised of basic Karate strikes and puts an emphasis on kicking (the Koreans will deny this despite the evidence - both historical and technical - because they were once colonized by Japan). The entirety of TKD is about what you would cover as a beginner if you were studying certain Chinese systems. Maybe that's why he laughed.

Martial arts vary widely in their theories of attack and defense as well as in their training regimen and repetoire of techniques. Teachers vary widely in their degree of practice, degree of learning, and personality. Its not easy to say that a specific system is inferior. A lot depends on the student. When I was taking TKD as a teenager I knew people, both teenage and adult, who had successfully defended themselves in altercations using the kicks - even the spinning ones - of TKD. Clearly their hard work paid off. But roundhousing a nobody in a parking lot is not the same as roundhousing someone who's practiced in another system.

If you're a student of Tae Kwon Do, which is what I suspect, and you've not studied anything else, my advice to you would be to spend one night a week doing so. Try Judo or Jujitsu. Try Aikido. Try anything Chinese. Heck, if you want to stay Korean, try Hapkido. Experience other systems. You will not appreciate yours until you do. I am not alone in this opinion.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">i'm really into Zen and Budo philosophy, yet no karate school i've found directly teaches this through its training,</div>

I don't think a lot of people practice it. Maybe in Japan? You know there are people who expatriate just to learn a martial art (or their philosophies). As far as Zen, look around for a Zen center. You may find a meditation group but what you're looking for is some place with a qualified roshi. And while Zen is not easily qualified someone with some kind of credentials is preferable to an unlead group. If the teacher is unfamiliar with the militaristic Zen of samurai you may have to make the connections yourself. There is a book, The Unfettered Mind: Writings from a Zen Master to a Master Swordsman, that is a collection of correspondences between - just like the title says - a swordsman and a Zen master. Its a must-have if you haven't picked it up already.
 
<div>
(Totentanz @ Nov. 14 2007,07:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Please prove your statement.  I've never heard any martial art ever officially called &quot;the most effective martial art&quot; because that is retarded.</div>
+1.  no martial art is &quot;the best.&quot; I've done martial arts &amp; lifted at the same time.  I cut back my # of sets &amp; should have eaten more.  on the other hand, I was in pretty fair shape at that time.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In Chinese Boxing Masters and Methods Robert Smith recounts an episode when a then known Korean Karate master visited Taiwan to demonstrate his martial art to the Chinese boxers.</div>

hehe it's strange how people somehow 'demonstrate' their martial art, do u understand what that means QuantumPositron?? to demonstrate it, would mean to use it in self-defense, not just throwing techniques hmmm
biggrin.gif
i just see that written alot in magazines and i was wondering what that ACTUALLY meant
laugh.gif


but yeah thanks heaps mate, really appreciate your input, i guess it IS a matter of finding what I'M looking for in a system and so on

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The Unfettered Mind: Writings from a Zen Master to a Master Swordsman</div>

no i don't have that one, i MUST though hehe i've got a few Zen books just detailing what it's all about, i very much agree with what it presents, although agreeing with something won't lead to perfection of it ;)

you're a very knowledgeable person QP, and yes i WILL look around, there doesn't even seem to be any KungFu or Chinese styles around where i live, i'll look, but i'm very much thinking of sticking with karate (a ermm, non-shopping-mall-variety type ;) )
 
<div>
(_Simon_ @ Nov. 10 2007,07:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I REEEEEEEEEALLY wanna start karate again, and i'm just thinking how demanding karate is physically, whether it will impede on my bodybuilding goals</div>
I don't know anything about Zen (though I have maintained a few motorcycles in my time). However, with regard to your original question, I used to box on the days I wasn't working out. I didn't find that it impeded my body building goals, though as has been said, I did need to keep my food intake up.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't know anything about Zen (though I have maintained a few motorcycles in my time)</div>

LOL HEHE

thanks for the input TunnelRat, the search is ON...
biggrin.gif
but also i'm having trouble eating the amount of calories i need NOW, imagine when i take up karate lol, does anyone know how many calories are burnt in say 3 hours a week of martial arts? actually dw, i'll look myself haha
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top