max stim- my thoughts

Discussion in 'Strength-Specific Training (SST)' started by coach hale, Apr 7, 2007.

  1. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (9to5lifter @ Jun. 20 2007,08:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">it does feel sort of strange doing my 10rm 20 times</div>
    Just wait until you get to the point where you do 20 reps with your 3RM. Lots of fun! [​IMG]</div>
    Keeps life interesting at least. [​IMG]
     
  2. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (9to5lifter @ Jun. 20 2007,08:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just wait until you get to the point where you do 20 reps with your 3RM. Lots of fun! [​IMG]</div>
    Yes, this has been my response, too!

    20 reps with my 5RM, then increasing the weight each workout for another two weeks past my 5RM...!

    I think Dan has a winner with this MS stuff.
     
  3. ricwig

    ricwig New Member

    Hi all,

    After finding this thread, and perusing the hypertrophy-research website, I decided to give max-stim training a go and have been at it for 2 weeks now. I started off using my 10 RM for 20 reps and have already increased it. I've also found it's true that you sweat ferociously (like a fat lass at a disco - as we say ;-).

    However, I was not prepared for the shock I received this morning when I weighed myself for the first time since I started: I had lost half a stone (7lbs in US currency)! In 2 weeks!? I notice that others have also lost weight whilst still gaining strength, so is this just through increaded workload?

    I am also interested to know whether anyone has tried reverting back to 'traditional' sets after a few weeks/months with max-stim, and if there are significant strength gains to report. I may well try this myself - I know there shouldn't be any need, but all us bodybuilders are insecure!

    Thanks.
     
  4. Krieger

    Krieger New Member

    Hey guys.
    I read about Max-Stim a lot on the board and the book also.

    But I'm curious - where can I find some results in LBM gain on people doing Max Stim cycles? We have a results page there but no one said it was using Max Stim, so I have the curiosity on how it goes to the majority of people if they pack more mass or basically the same as vanilla HST.
     
  5. navigator

    navigator New Member

    <div>
    (Krieger @ Nov. 15 2007,05:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But I'm curious - where can I find some results in LBM gain on people doing Max Stim cycles? We have a results page there but no one said it was using Max Stim, so I have the curiosity on how it goes to the majority of people if they pack more mass or basically the same as vanilla HST.</div>
    I second this! It seems that &quot;Results&quot; threads have fallen in popularity in favor of &quot;Training Logs.&quot; I miss &quot;Results&quot; threads--it's a pain thumbing through super long threads looking for the LBM gains (if even stated anymore).

    I have had a hard time finding anyone that's posted results after performing a &quot;proper&quot; Max-Stim cycle. Seems like most people do it for two weeks and then shout to the world that it's the greatest.

    I am currently working on a proper MS cycle while mildly cutting, and I can say that I am slowly dropping in BF% while keeping essentially all of my LBM (according to my scale and calipers, anyway). And, coincidentally, I'm about two weeks into the cycle. [​IMG]
     
  6. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (navigator @ Nov. 15 2007,11:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I second this!  It seems that &quot;Results&quot; threads have fallen in popularity in favor of &quot;Training Logs.&quot;  I miss &quot;Results&quot; threads--it's a pain thumbing through super long threads looking for the LBM gains (if even stated anymore).

    I have had a hard time finding anyone that's posted results after performing a &quot;proper&quot; Max-Stim cycle.  Seems like most people do it for two weeks and then shout to the world that it's the greatest.

    I am currently working on a proper MS cycle while mildly cutting, and I can say that I am slowly dropping in BF% while keeping essentially all of my LBM (according to my scale and calipers, anyway).  And, coincidentally, I'm about two weeks into the cycle. [​IMG]</div>
    Well hello there Charles how the heck ya been? It's been a while.

    I third that Charles

    I wish more would have used the results thread for what it was intended for....results, good or bad.

    Although I would say I haven't seen many say it's the greatest I do think some have pointed to the value of it, either as an adjunct or the primary training. It appears that most use it as an adjunct to lifting heavy and either gaining strength and relative loading or maintaining strength while cutting.

    I guess many have a misunderstanding in that I have  promoted MS as the next big thing since sliced cheese but this is far from true and although I do think there is value in it, I dont think, nor have I said, that it is the utmost in training methods. What I have said is I do not believe that fatigue in and of itself is a key primary messenging system and in fact may be inhibitive. I have also mentioned how the intermittant reps may add to the mechanotransduction as each rep is seen (felt/sensed) as a seperate and distinct event versus the possiblity that a conventional continous rep aproach may blur these lines of demarcation and in effect cause the entire set to sensed differently.

    Unfortunately there is no direct emperical evidence in a weight lifting setting in humans that substantiates what I say but, this doesn't mean I am wrong nor does it mean I'm right.

    If there are any undergrads out there who would like to pick up this torch and run with it I would only be too happy to offer any help.

    Charles I would welcome you to post your results at MS or here and I would love to see the final outcome or of course feel free to email me.
     
  7. QuantumPositron

    QuantumPositron New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have had a hard time finding anyone that's posted results after performing a &quot;proper&quot; Max-Stim cycle. Seems like most people do it for two weeks and then shout to the world that it's the greatest.</div>

    Show me a cycle and I'll do it come December 1st.

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I wish more would have used the results thread for what it was intended for....results, good or bad.</div>

    I can write a page of notes off a single workout and disposable cameras are cheap enough. I have calipers, a tape measure, and a scale. Not the most rigorous instruments for the job but its what the lay people use.

    I have my doubts, but there's only one way to find out. Choose the lifts, the split, and the progression and I'll follow them to the T. Diet and nutrition is your call. Use any new ideas you like. I'll be the guinea pig. Let's see what happens.
     
  8. navigator

    navigator New Member

    Hi Dan,

    Good to hear from you, too! How're you doing?

    I've been okay--turned to Max-Stim due to burnout with other programs coupled with work &amp; family and the like. Also, PITT style training seems interesting, but I have more confidence in your scientific works, Dan. Sure, I'd be willing to post some results at the end of the cycle.

    I think you already know this, but I want to point out anyway that in no way am I critizing MS. Rather, my complaint is that all over the forums, there seems to have been a shift away from posting in Results threads. Training Logs seem good for strength cycles where PRs are the objective, but not terribly enlightening for muscle growth cycles.

    As for my current cycle, I'm only two weeks deep, so the weights are still relatively light. It's kind of weird; per rep, the weights are easy to lift, after the 20 reps I feel like I can do more for each exercise, but I don't because I have found my energy drops off near the end of the workout (if that's happening, then I must be doing enough work overall). And, I do sweat a lot more during MS sets--there's definitely a cardio aspect going on, too.

    On rest days, I have noticed an improved sense that tension has been applied to the muscles. It's not soreness in the typical sense, but more like a slight tightness, kind of like an urge to stretch after being in one position for a long time. It's hard to adequately describe. At any rate, I do feel less fatigued, and the scale &amp; calipers are being friendly. So, I'm happy overall and anxious to see how things progress.
     
  9. Krieger

    Krieger New Member

    Wow, seems there's some good reactions!

    I understand and totally agree with Navigator. The results thread are left behind, and training logs seldomly mentions LBM gains. It's a shame, cause it was the Results thread that inspired me to try HST. I've done a cycle now, and I enjoyed so far (but I'm cutting).

    Now I have been very interested on Max-Stim, but I have some doubts too. It looks to me that this type of rest-pause training burn fewer calouries, so it's not to be used on all exercises while cutting (drop sets can really burn calouries, so I imagine rest pause would be the opposite).
    If I'm wrong and max-stim burns almost equaly as traditional rep/set lifting, I would be doing it.
    If not, it would be only a tool for me like many people do it - to manage fatigue. I was having a hard time on my back, shoulders and other muscles since I was doing hardcore boxing while doing HST. By implementing Max Stim I figure that my gym sessions will have little impacts on my hardcore cardio I choose to do. So I will be doing calisthenics (only bw) exercises in offdays, hoping to not fall into overtraining because of working muscles everyday.

    Nice that QuantumPositron is doing a cycle with Max Stim! I suggest a bulking cycle and in the end you give your LBM/fat gains and compare to HST cycles you had. Let's see how it goes!

    Since Navigator is cutting with MS too, I would like to hear the results from you, pal [​IMG]
     
  10. QuantumPositron

    QuantumPositron New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> It looks to me that this type of rest-pause training burn fewer calouries, so it's not to be used on all exercises while cutting (drop sets can really burn calouries, so I imagine rest pause would be the opposite). </div>

    To the contrary, with rest pause you are circumventing fatigue and thus using a given weight for more reps than you could using traditional, continuous rep lifting. Your total work output is higher than it would be if you weren't doing rest pause.

    So you are burning more calories.

    Using weights to burn calories is irrational anyhow. Lifting does not use the oxidative pathways that metabolize fat. When you lift you are using the glycogen within the muscles and maybe the glycogen in your liver. These get replenished the next time you eat. Fat stores do not get tapped. The hormonal response from lifting, however, can encourage leanness.

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I suggest a bulking cycle</div>

    Putting it together this very morning.

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Let's see how it goes!</div>

    Heck yes!
     
  11. RUSS

    RUSS Member

    Perhaps the LBM gains aren't reported as much as they could be due to a lack of knowledge of standardized measuring technique - here is a very usefull and illustrated thread link that might help people feel more adept at the whole measuring process:


    http://www.powerliftinguk.com/showthread.php?t=6577



    Also - I have not ever done Dan Moore's Max-stim , but I've been doing triples @ higher set numbers ( to the tune of about 24-30 total reps per exersize- ie. 8x3's, 10x3's , and also a lot of 3x3's @90%and above 1RM) over the entirety of my lifting &quot;life&quot; (20 years approximately) and feel that Max-stim has a lot in common with this. IMHO leaving out low rep high set work and over 90%1RM work would leave a lifter behind the guy who does include them in his yearly programming. I've yet to see anyone create a truly BIG natural body (and I mean big , not just average/above average with superior &quot;cut&quot; muscularity) without devoting some portion of thier training to the &quot;number chasing&quot; that low rep high set training fosters. Some of the most &quot;densely&quot; rock hard musculatures I've ever personally witnessed were on guys who practically live in the 3-5 rep range with a smaller portion of thier training being in the 5-8 range and also doubles and singles. It seems to me that M.S. and routines like it deserve more than just occassional &quot;tool in the arsenal&quot; status - they should have an equal if not prominent position in any lifter seeking to maximize gains' yearly plan. Just my opinion of course... [​IMG]
     
  12. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (navigator @ Nov. 15 2007,15:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">On rest days, I have noticed an improved sense that tension has been applied to the muscles.  It's not soreness in the typical sense, but more like a slight tightness,</div>
    This was one of the first things I noticed as well. It's not really DOMS in the typical sense IE feel it mostly at points of insertion and origin, after a good MS set I feel it mostly in the belly of the muscle and it's more pronounced during contraction than stretching. For me anyway.

    Charles, I understood your complaints about results threads I just wanted to clarify that unlike some people who say their plan is extraordinary, fantastic and will pack X amount of mass on you in 2 days, I'm a little more truthful and I'm not into blowing smoke up everyone's shorts.
     
  13. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Active Member

    waaait a minute, [​IMG], correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought there were actual sets (ie divisions of sets) with MS! or is it just 20 reps with ONLY rest between reps (and not rest between sets?)??
    for EXAMPLE: using your 8RM, the aim is 20 reps, would one do 20 reps consecutively (and i don't mean continuously, but as in rest between reps), without that 2 or so minute rest between sets? so in OTHER words lol, there isn't a grouping of reps into sets? it's just one BIG set? COOL! [​IMG]

    and also, how do people find that their strength has increased? just because 20 reps with rest between reps can be done with your 8RM it doesn't mean you are stronger ;) haha, but i'm guessing you restest your maxes round the end of your cycle or so??

    and hey Dan, lovin your new Blog ;)
     
  14. QuantumPositron

    QuantumPositron New Member

    Dan,

    What about the 'sarcoplasmic hypertrophy' that people mention - glycogen and fluid stores and what not. Is there any research that suggests that higher volume workouts with moderate intensity cause a sort of supercompensation of this tissue? Perhaps by accumulating more glycogen or what not? My question originates from the obvious differences in physique between bodybuilders, lean power lifters, and lean Olympic lifters. My perception is that many bodybuilders still use the high volume approach and have larger, fuller muscles than lean PLs and OLs. I know that much of the strength of the latter two groups comes from CNS and technical training. Am I comparing apples to oranges? There are studies concluding that elite bodybuilders and elite OL's have similar levels of hypertrophy with insignificant differences between groups, but that the bodybuilders still had significantly larger muscles, the reason for which could not be determined (I can fetch this article if you'd like to see it, but its late so I'm moving fast).

    I have this crazy idea that once muscle glycogen and/or perhaps liver glycogen is depleted below some threshold (isn't there always a threshold?), that some manner of superaccumulation occurs in the muscle to provide reserves for a possible future bout and that this accumulation contributes to muscle size and shape. It isn't disputed in the running world that carb loading allows you to store more carbs for a short time. Runners use it to carb up for a race. Granted this a distinct mechanism and granted my imagi-reasoning is pseudo-scientific but I've been chewing on it for a while now and wanted to know your thoughts.
     
  15. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Simon, it's hard to answer you when you answer your own questions!  [​IMG]  Yeah, you got it right.

    Dan, another query:
    Using singles at the end of a set, say I did some squats at 2 sets of 8, got close to maxed out and then did some singles at the end of the second set; racking the bar between each rep, but resting for around 15-20 seconds. (I actually did four singles then a double to finish- 305x8, 305x8+1+1+1+1+2)
    What are your thoughts on this? I thought the increased workload would be good and there was no way I was gonna get another full set anyway.
    My feeling is that the motor units were all firing at this point (when the singles started) as opposed to the end of a third set.
     
  16. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (_Simon_ @ Nov. 16 2007,23:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">waaait a minute, [​IMG], correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought there were actual sets (ie divisions of sets) with MS! or is it just 20 reps with ONLY rest between reps (and not rest between sets?)??
    for EXAMPLE: using your 8RM, the aim is 20 reps, would one do 20 reps consecutively (and i don't mean continuously, but as in rest between reps), without that 2 or so minute rest between sets? so in OTHER words lol, there isn't a grouping of reps into sets? it's just one BIG set? COOL! [​IMG]

    and also, how do people find that their strength has increased? just because 20 reps with rest between reps can be done with your 8RM it doesn't mean you are stronger ;) haha, but i'm guessing you restest your maxes round the end of your cycle or so??

    and hey Dan, lovin your new Blog ;)</div>
    Simon, yup that's the idea. rep-rest-rep-rest and so on until you hit your number of reps.
     
  17. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (QuantumPositron @ Nov. 17 2007,03:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Dan,

       What about the 'sarcoplasmic hypertrophy' that people mention - glycogen and fluid stores and what not.  Is there any research that suggests that higher volume workouts with moderate intensity cause a sort of supercompensation of this tissue?   Perhaps by accumulating more glycogen or what not?  My question originates from the obvious differences in physique between bodybuilders, lean power lifters, and lean Olympic lifters.  My perception is that many bodybuilders still use the high volume approach and have larger, fuller muscles than lean PLs and OLs.  I know that much of the strength of the latter two groups comes from CNS and technical training.  Am I comparing apples to oranges?  There are studies concluding that elite bodybuilders and elite OL's have similar levels of hypertrophy with insignificant differences between groups, but that the bodybuilders still had significantly larger muscles, the reason for which could not be determined (I can fetch this article if you'd like to see it, but its late so I'm moving fast).

    I have this crazy idea that once muscle glycogen and/or perhaps liver glycogen is depleted below some threshold (isn't there always a threshold?), that some manner of superaccumulation occurs in the muscle to provide reserves for a possible future bout and that this accumulation contributes to muscle size and shape.  It isn't disputed in the running world that carb loading allows you to store more carbs for a short time.  Runners use it to carb up for a race.  Granted this a distinct mechanism and granted my imagi-reasoning is pseudo-scientific but I've been chewing on it for a while now and wanted to know your thoughts.</div>
    QP, not that I'm aware of (speaking of supercomensation in BB). As far as sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, one first must understand that the actual protein fractions, sarcoplasmic versus myofiber, all increase during PS caused by training.

    Naturally there are other adaptations as well such as lactate clearance, and such.

    I posted a paper on the blog that used an ischemic training model and it clearly stated that the ischemia did cause a much higher glycogen and lactate content in the tissue. Unfortunately they didn't mention how much.
    But this isn't quite the same as moderate loading with high rep sets and little rest between sets.

    When looking at some competitive lifters I have seen shoulders on some of these guys that BBs would kill for so I think the difference is more owing to the specific movements and body parts that are trained versus the training method itself.

    There is some work that shows that the difference in hypertrophy seen may be more owing to the selective hypertrophy of Type II fibers in Weight Lifters. Tesch, many years ago, noted that the percentage of FT fibers was less, mean fiber area was smaller and selective FT fiber hypertrophy was not evident in comparison of BB to WL, Tesch (1982). In some later work by Tesch he notes that bodybuilders in contrast to Olympic weight- and power lifters, display a small increase in number of capillaries per fiber. He also noted that the glycogen storage capacity is increased in OL and PL but enzyme activities reflecting anaerobic metabolism did not increase in response to heavy resistance exercise. When Tesch (1989) dug further into the enzyme changes he noted CS (citrate synthase) activity of ST fibers and MK (myokinase) activity of FT fibers were higher in BB compared to OL/PL. BB displayed greater fiber size than OL/PL. FT vs. ST area was greater in OL/PL than BB. indicating that the mode of training did induce specific metabolic adaptations of FT and ST fiber types. When Fry (2004) looked at the impact of relative intensity what he noticed was when comparing competitive lifters, those typically utilizing the heaviest loads, IE weightlifters and powerlifters, exhibited a preferential hypertrophy of type II fibres compared with body builders who appeared to equally hypertrophy both type I and type II fibres. Obviously there is some impact either metabolically or because of recruitment or both that impact the hypertrophy of differing fiber populations now whether or not adding in a brief rest between reps changes these enzymatic reactions I don't know but when looking at MS it's clear that not only do we lift a respectable load, for a respectable amount of work, but we also should be causing a significant recruitment and therefore training of Type II fibers by always trying to lift the concentric portion as fast as possible.
     
  18. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Nov. 17 2007,03:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Dan, another query:
    Using singles at the end of a set, say I did some squats at 2 sets of 8, got close to maxed out and then did some singles at the end of the second set; racking the bar between each rep, but resting for around 15-20 seconds. (I actually did four singles then a double to finish- 305x8, 305x8+1+1+1+1+2)
    What are your thoughts on this? I thought the increased workload would be good and there was no way I was gonna get another full set anyway.
    My feeling is that the motor units were all firing at this point (when the singles started) as opposed to the end of a third set.</div>
    Sure many do that and we have been doing it here on HST for years, ala clustering into singles.

    My question is, could one do say 310 or even 315 X 1 for 22 if the rest had been inserted from the get go, my guess is yes. But of course I realize, especially with squats, this is a pain and it may be better suited for other exercises.
     
  19. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Simon: Why wonder? Just get it from the horse's mouth (so to speak. Sorry Dan.  [​IMG] )
    MaxStim - the true story

    Quad: Like Dan said, using singles at the end is, of course, fine and is what lots of us have been doing at the end of a cycle when we cluster reps. My feeling, though, is that if you are close to maxed out at the end of a set and then you start doing singles you are working in a more fatigued state for longer. It's no big deal, but part of the rationale behind Max-Stim is that you are reducing fatigue build up as much as possible. By doing consecutive reps first, what you are doing is building it up as quickly as possible and then keeping it pretty much at that level until you complete your desired number of reps. So, as Dan said, you would probably be able to increase the load further without accumulating any more fatigue if you used M-Time from the start.

    I've been wondering about using MS style reps for deads but I personally feel that I have to be a bit more careful with deads than just about any other exercise because of the high demand on the CNS as the intensity rises.

    How do you folks feel about trying to get 20 reps with loads around your 5RM for deads? Have any of you done it? I would think that this would be really hard and would require that you drop your frequency to once a week at best (that's fine by me [​IMG] ). Rippetoe recommends that for deads you only do one top set with your 5RM and then only do them once a week (assuming you are a seasoned lifter).

    At 5RM loads, perhaps 10 reps would be a better target to aim for and then add in some extra reps with a reduced load to keep work done progressing? Or, perhaps just seeing how you get on with your 5RM load would be best; once you find that you need more than a minute of M-time to keep going then you could lower the weight and continue, MS style, until you hit a target of say 20 reps. I might give this a try at the the end of this cycle.

    Thoughts?
     
  20. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    I am not sure if I ever did my 5 rep maximum for 20 max-stim reps, but I have always found Max-stim to be very effective technique for deadlifts. Deadlifts are so fatigueing of the muscle tissue as well as aerobic system, cns, etc. That MS is a great tool to get more volume in with deadlifts.
    I remember doing 30 max-stim reps one time with like my 10 rep max. Also I have done 10 max-stim reps in a row with my 5 rep max... (about 300 pounds with 25 seconds m-time between reps). [​IMG]
     

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