Maxing out reps on certain exercises...?

wungun

Member
On my 3rd cycle, and I've decided to try something a little different.
Going thru the HST progressive loading principles, but instead of stopping at my 15, 10, 5 reps on each exercise day, I want to do as many reps as I can for each weight/workout day.
Plan on doing this on my chins and incline benches...
So instead of doing, for example, 65Lbs inclines for 15 reps, I'll do 20 or 24...rep to failure basically...and do this every workout day, and for all rep ranges...

Thoughts?
 
Very, very bad idea assuming you are not a complete newbie to weight training. You are no longer doing HST. After posting a previous 46 times, I am shocked that you would even consider such a foolish move Wungun. Pretty soon you will called Nogun.
 
If you stop a rep short of failure you should be ok. You might get to a point of having to drop back to 2 workouts per week instead of three. Others have done this before if u do some searching on the forum.
 
If you stop a rep short of failure you should be ok. You might get to a point of having to drop back to 2 workouts per week instead of three. Others have done this before if u do some searching on the forum.

That is suggesting doing 6 straight workouts at the same weight going within 1 rep of failure? Whatever happened to Progressive Load. A lot of people have done this before but you don't hear them touting it now unless they are big juicers and are posting on those type of forums. How come? Makes no sense is why. You might get away with it for one short cycle per year but not much more.

Everybody who comes on this website needs to step back and reread Totz's primer. Two hours of reading and you get many lifetimes worth of knowledge based on science. Not musclehead garbage repeated so many times nobody even knows the source anymore. You should read through each week until it becomes your mantra. If something does not make sense, ask questions. Or go to BBing.com and join the stagnated short timers.
 
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I think all of us have workout out to failure or near failure in our lifting history. Then pretty much all of us get tired of the poor results it provides so we move to something different. Then for whatever reason, like a siren's call, we think, "I need to start lifting until failure that'll really get me some results".
 
On my 3rd cycle, and I've decided to try something a little different.
Going thru the HST progressive loading principles, but instead of stopping at my 15, 10, 5 reps on each exercise day, I want to do as many reps as I can for each weight/workout day.
Plan on doing this on my chins and incline benches...
So instead of doing, for example, 65Lbs inclines for 15 reps, I'll do 20 or 24...rep to failure basically...and do this every workout day, and for all rep ranges...

Thoughts?


I'm not going to attack you for not following the program. Correct me if I'm wrong but progressive loading pretty much means when you increase your weight you decrease the reps but the total rep range is still 15 but spread out through 1, 2 or 3 sets.

My question would be is what is your logic behind trying to do 20 or 24 reps to failure while doing this every work out for all rep ranges?
 
I think all of us have workout out to failure or near failure in our lifting history. Then pretty much all of us get tired of the poor results it provides so we move to something different. Then for whatever reason, like a siren's call, we think, "I need to start lifting until failure that'll really get me some results".

Exactly just like "Work Hard, Play Hard." However, in almost anything it is better to "Work Smart, Play Smart."
 
Manimal, that is correct for changing from 15 to 10 or 10 to 5 reps. However, there is also progressive loading within the same rep range. That is just as important, perhaps less so in the 15's but still important.

Also, I did not mean to "attack" wungun. It just caught me by total surprise because all his previous posts had shown a clear understanding of HST. Apologies to wungun!
 
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Working to actual failure, meaning you can't physically do another rep... Well, that is a bad idea and will lead to overtraining. However, stopping a set when form starts to break down, is fine. If you feel like "repping out" beyond your normal rep range, I think that is totally fine, just stop the set when fatigue sets in and you can no longer keep good form, don't train to actual failure, so as not to burn out.
 
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No offence taken O&G...
"Nogun"...I like that! Lol

My reasoning, and maybe I'm diggin too deep into HST theory, but as an example...

I just finished 2 weeks of 15's and just starting my 10's. let pick bench press for my example...
My first workout of 10's, I'll lift 80Lbs, then 85 next workout, 90, etc...
So with the lower weights, I increase me TUL to maximize the load time on my muscles for such a low weight...
I'm thinking it would be more beneficial to max out my reps for that weight (okay, 1 or 2 reps short of failure due to the frequency of the workouts) than to keep my reps restricted to 10 reps every workout.

For the start of every rep block, I find it very hard to convince myself that these light weights are even doing anything! Maybe only the last two workout in the rep block are only stimulating muscle growth...?

With "rep maxing", I'm still loading my muscles progressively with more weight every single workout, and I feel like I'm actually getting a workout.
So this workout, would naturally look like...
1- 80Lbs, 18 reps
2- 85Lbs, 16 reps
3- 90Lbs, 14 reps
4- 95Lbs, 12 reps
5- 100Lbs, 11 reps
6- 105Lbs, 10 reps

As same as before, I hit my 10rm on my last workout, load is increased every workout.
The only difference is 60 total reps for all workouts compared to 81 total reps.
Which seems more "purposeful" to me. Of course, assuming 1 set per workout.

Question: how do I know if I'm over training??
Or slaughtering my CNS?
 
Training to failure every workout with increasing loads will lead to overtraining and your subsequent training sessions will likely be compromised unless you have "Wolverine-like" recovery.
 
The thing is, for me, when I start on my 10's or 5's, with the lower weights, the next day, I don't feel ANY muscle soreness usually.
And even when I get into my 5's, soreness is very minimal.

NOW, when I did a few weeks of the Hardcore 40 workout (set of 10-15 reps+set of 20-25 reps), I couldn't move for 3 days!
This kind of soreness is what I akin to overtraining.
Of course subsequent workouts weren't quite as bad.
 
Keep in mind that muscle soreness is not necessarily an indicator of growth. Autoregulation of volume is an idea that has some merit. Obviously going to failure on any day other than the max RM day is a bad idea. Rather than simply add reps, I would just add sets. And when you cannot complete a set, stop a few reps shy of failure then call it good and don't keep going.

Example you are doing Incline Bench today and the plan is to do 2 x 10 with 225 lbs, you are feeling particularly good today so after the two sets, you add a third and get all ten reps no problem, so you add a forth but by rep six you realize you aren't going to get ten so you stop. Keep in mind that this could compromise your strength on subsequent exercises in that workout, and could possibly effect your strength in that same lift next workout.
 
Thanks for the reply 'anz...
I'll concentrate more on getting a nice slow negative my lower weights and adding a set instead of maxing my reps.
3 sets would be plenty I think!

I try to be conscience of overlapping muscle groups for different exercises, I.e. going from inclines to flat bench (if I even do flat bench at all). If I feel a muscle is getting blasted from different exercises, I'll split those exercises up at the beginning and end of my workouts, especially when I get into my 4th, 5th and 6th workouts in any particular rep range.

225lbs for 10 reps?! I'm my dreams!!! Lol
 
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That is suggesting doing 6 straight workouts at the same weight going within 1 rep of failure? Whatever happened to Progressive Load. A lot of people have done this before but you don't hear them touting it now unless they are big juicers and are posting on those type of forums. How come? Makes no sense is why. You might get away with it for one short cycle per year but not much more.

Everybody who comes on this website needs to step back and reread Totz's primer. Two hours of reading and you get many lifetimes worth of knowledge based on science. Not musclehead garbage repeated so many times nobody even knows the source anymore. You should read through each week until it becomes your mantra. If something does not make sense, ask questions. Or go to BBing.com and join the stagnated short timers.

I was referring to starting with a high rep range of around 20 and adding small amounts of weight each workout letting the reps drop as they may, and let the weight determine the reps. This would eliminate the zig-zagging of the weight load.

By the way, not saying I agree with it, but former pro Phil Hernon is currently training himself and some of his training clients on a full body routine 10-12 exercises total per workout for 1 set each, training to failure, and training everyday only taking a day off when they feel the need to do so and they seem to be loving it. Over at his muscle science forum.
 
The thing is, for me, when I start on my 10's or 5's, with the lower weights, the next day, I don't feel ANY muscle soreness usually.
And even when I get into my 5's, soreness is very minimal.

This may suggest that you need to re-program your working weights and your max weights.

As a frame of reference, I am typically MOST sore during my first week of 15s. This is primarily because I am coming off of a successful SD period. Once I get into the second week of 15s the soreness lowers to the point where it pretty much stays for the entire 10-12 week cycle. Typically I am "nicely sore" (vs severe DOMS sore) everywhere the day after training. Two days after training I'm still a little sore everywhere and I'm training again through mild soreness everywhere.

Are you growing? If so, then I suppose you don't need to dither with your routine much; but since you are contemplating such dramatic tweaks, I'm thinking you are not growing as you think you should. I would start by re-programing your working and max weights.
 
I think this thread has lead away from the tenets of HST and is mixing in other techniques. That is fine. Let's just not fool ourselves into thinking that that is still HST and then, when you fail, start whining on the other boards that HST does not work. To address this issue, I am putting some quotes below that I lifted verbatim from The HST Handbook. Like them or not. Agree with them or not. Just recognize that a deviation from this disqualifies whatever it is from being along the principles of HST.

As a general rule of thumb, you should increase volume only if you are never sore, you
are never tired after your workouts and you are not growing despite steadily gaining weight.
Obviously if you are not gaining weight at all, that is a diet issue and not an issue of volume.


No routine is going to magically put muscle on you without the necessary calories and protein
to build the muscle. On the other hand, you would want to maintain volume if you are slightly
sore after workouts most of the time, you are tired enough at night to sleep well but not so
tired that you are losing the desire to lift and your muscles are noticeably fuller. Lastly, you
would want to decrease volume if you are tired most of the time but still don't sleep well,
notice any sort of strain in your joints or other over-use pain, strength levels are plummeting
and if you notice your immune system seems very poor.

Overtraining or overreaching is not something that we want to do in HST. This tactic is
one that improves performance, not hypertrophy. As such, be mindful to keep volume low
enough to avoid this. Many people try to increase volume above what they need to grow in
an effort to improve their gains, but the reality is that the minimum volume necessary to grow
is going to be more effective than using the maximum volume you can handle.
If you ever get
to the point where you are truly overtrained, a simple nine day SD is not sufficient to alleviate
the symptoms of overtraining.

Totz then has this to say about using lighter weights (typically in the first week of any given rep range cycle.)

Why am I starting out with less in the 10s than I finished with in the 15s? And in the 5s as well, you say?

This is called zig-zag and is totally fine. The main thing here is that we want to be
progressing over the course of the cycle. Just because you lifted 77 kg for 2 sets of 15 reps
on Friday does not mean that 65 kg for 2 sets of 10 on Monday will be totally useless for
hypertrophy. The way that HST is setup, we are staying far enough ahead of the curve that
your muscles will not become conditioned to the loads so fast that this is a problem.
Additionally, this can be beneficial as a brief period of recovery after lifting your RM the
previous Friday.


What about weeks seven and eight? That depends. It is recommended in the original
HST articles to do negatives where possible. For most people who don't have a training
partner, negatives are not feasible for most lifts. So you do have a few options here. You
could keep using your 5 rep max for the next two weeks, as that load is heavy enough that it
will still cause growth for a good couple of weeks.

Or you can attempt to continue incrementing each exercise beyond your 5 rep max
each workout. You will most likely have gained strength over the course of your HST cycle,
unless you are eating like a sparrow, and will now be able to lift more for 5 reps than you were
when you tested your maxes prior to the cycle. So if you have been increasing the load by a
couple kilograms each workout, then the workout after your 5 RM session, you could try
adding another couple kilograms to your lifts and see what happens. In doing this, you will
eventually be unable to increase the load further, which will mean that you just found your
new 5 RM. And that's great since then you can use that new 5 RM to build your next cycle.


The 9 day SD referred to above I personally prefer to call the passive SD. You do nothing. When you are zig-zaging, I refer to this as the active SD. You are lifting enough weight to stimulate growth but also allowing your muscles to recover from lifting at their rep max. Science has proved that there is very little in improved hypertrophy between lifting at 65% of ones 1 rep max and 85% of one's 1 rep max, even when keeping the total reps the same. By lifting less, you are allowing your muscle to recover from a beating but still stimulating growth. In this regard it may seem that HST is closer to taking a page from the HIT method then from the max effort guys. In reality, it is taking the best that science has been able to prove and putting it all together and calling it HST.
 
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My point was really only about re-setting his maxes to actual maxes; which then would re-set some/all of his working weights leading up to the maxes.

Pure HST, but yes, I suppose it's easier just to refer to the handbook. :)
 
The thing is, for me, when I start on my 10's or 5's, with the lower weights, the next day, I don't feel ANY muscle soreness usually.
And even when I get into my 5's, soreness is very minimal.

NOW, when I did a few weeks of the Hardcore 40 workout (set of 10-15 reps+set of 20-25 reps), I couldn't move for 3 days!
This kind of soreness is what I akin to overtraining.
Of course subsequent workouts weren't quite as bad.

Stop correlating soreness with stimulus for hypertrophy.

There isn't a correlation to be had.

I'm certain I can make you sore to the point of not wanting to move without generating any hypertrophy stimuli, and similarly the inverse.


'Soreness' is a function of neural usage and 'expenditure' (for lack of a better word), not the intracellular or intra-tissue states of muscles.
 
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