Medial Delts???

B

Blaks85

New Member
This is a quote from a member of the bodybuilding.com forum. He's speaking on his opinions on the shoulders-namely the medial delts. What do you guys think?:confused:??? Holla!

"Overhead presses, right? Correct - if we're talking about the front-delt head. Remember, the deltoid muscle has three sections, or heads, and most bodybuilders are more concerned with the medial, or side, head because it's what gives the torso width. So how do you hit the side head? By raising your upper arm out to the side. Ah-ha, lateral raises. But can you really get muscle synergy, with the medial head being the prime mover, with that awkward, somewhat unnatural exercise? Some people can. I know a guy who got some pretty big side delts doing heavy semi-cheat laterals, but what he was really doing was closer to a dumbbell upright row than a lateral raise.
Yep, the dumbbell upright row is proba*bly the most natural exercise for overloading your medial-delt heads - as long as your upper arms move out to your sides and become perpendicular to the floor and you lean forward slightly throughout the exercise. You move your upper arms into the same position as the top of a lateral raise, but because your arms are bent in a rowing motion, you get muscle synergy and you can use much more weight and overload the side heads better than with laterals.
To achieve that optimal upper-arm position, you have to pull the dumbbells out and in front of your anterior delts, simulating a wide grip. If you keep the dumbbells close together, as in a narrow grip, you'll throw too much stress onto your upper traps.
Does that mean you shouldn't do the overhead press? No. It's a great exercise for front delts and also strengthens the rotator cuff muscles that protect the shoulder capsule. If you have trouble developing your medial-delt heads or you just want them to have more spectacular roundness, you may want to do dumbbell upright rows first in your delt routine and then go to overhead presses. That will put priority where it belongs - on your side*delt heads for more width.
i follow them with db laterals then db and bb press ( both standing )....dont take the dbs higher than chest level on uprights that is ok.
___
half the things that people do not succeed in are through fear of making the attempt.
Last edited by lonewolfshome : 06-22-2005 at 12:38 AM. "


I completely agree with him! With sooooooo many people always doing different variations of bench pressing, IMHO (especialy as a beginner), the front delts get MORE THAN ENOUGH WORK. Now i still feel that shoulder presses are a staple in weight lifting, but if your front delts are already stronger than your other 2 heads, and medial delt hypertrophy is extremely important to you, then wide grip upright rows are the next staple in my opinion. This is my reasoning:

1) i hate isolation exercises- especialy lateral raises (i feel it limits the amount of weight you can use to the EXTREME)
2)As stated before, front delts get more than enough work from all the different kinds of benching.
3) i also feel that yes most people have some sorry a$$ rear delts and they should be more prioritzed than the medials, but doing an AT LEAST equal amount of pulling exercises compared to pushing would even all that out strength and size wise.
4)After reading 1, 2, &3, my theory is that if your a beginner and benches give your front delts enough stimulation, then the overhead presses could (and should) take a back seat when it comes to medial delt training, at least for a while!
5)Wide grip upright rows, *IMHO*, are the best thing for medial delt strength and size. think about it, narrow grips emphasize the traps over the medial delts and are also more prone to cause injury. Now the wider the grip the greater a shift from traps to medial delt emphasis. There for it is AT LEAST AS GOOD AS SIDE LATERALS, and if you dont consider it a compound exercise, you CAN'T deny that it is the closest movement to a *compound* exersise for the medial delts (works: medial delts mainly, with a hint of trap, and bicep work)

So in conclusion, for beginners such as I, an equal amount of PUSH/PULL exercise volume with the wide grip upright row as the main (if not only) shoulder exercise would produce complete shoulder development without the "rounded shoulder" syndrome, aka overpowering front delts.

As i stated in my first post, i may have no real life experience, but you cant deny this theory, unless you're one of those "upright rows are evil"-type people (to you guys i say, "every1's entitled to their opinion"). And my opinion is just as sound as any. Any and all intelligent feedback is graciously welcome.
 
Upright rows CAN be dangerous to some even while following good form, ONLY during the portion of the lift where the bar is raised above the nipples and close to the chin, a la narrow grip upright rows (which focuses on the traps). But if you think about it, the wide grip (which focuses on the medial delts) would be almost imposible to lift much higher than your nipples. Can you say, "Goodbye rotator cuff, excuses?"
 
You have a point about the nipple thing.
Though I'd be taking your word for it that the "dangerous" part occurs on the above the nipples part of the lift.
I'd like to see what others have to say.
 
Even though i strongly believe in this theory, as a man i can respect that! Lets just hope we get some good replies on this one. ;) lol
 
In the Customizing section, there's a few lengthy posts about the difference between "peak contraction" and "stretch point" movements, and how tension curves against range of motion causes divergent responses with muscle. Traditional DB lateral raises are peak contraction. They're good at stimulating metabolic stress (i.e. the "burn.') However, lateral raises performed across the body are considered stretch point, and they cause more mechanical strain. That is the more important thing for stimulating real muscle growth.

Now, as for upright rows, in order to avoid problems with your shoulders, you can basically stop at around the waistline/belly button. That's actually all the ROM you really need to create significant microtrauma. And, because your strength is much higher during that ROM, you also have the option of starting at 15-20% higher load, or continuing the progressive load through the post-5s period.

The true stretch-point variation of the upright row is to do it behind your back. Because it's rather clumsy, most people just hold the weight, near lock-out, behind their back for 15-40 seconds.

Where does this put DB lateral raises and upright rows done above the nipple? Well, both can be used to create a burn in the area and metabolic stress. In both cases, you probably wouldn't use load higher than 15RM, and you would just work a high # of reps, or perform the pulse-style variation.

cheers,
Jules
 
Bellybutton you say? That's almost nothing, almost a shrug! But... I'll see about giving that a try.

Now for your across the body laterals... I never quite had a clear picture of how this looks.
Is it done on a bench, lying on one side? How high is the weight brought up? Parallel to floor?

Sorry to greet you back with only more questions you've no doubt answered a thousand times before.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]That's almost nothing, almost a shrug! But... I'll see about giving that a try.
Click to expand...

It's counterintuitive but you'll notice about the same effect in terms of DOMS and tightness done either way. Again, you have the option of using a higher start load or hitting much higher load through post-5s.

Basically, most questions people have about this exercise vs. that is pretty much answered by analyzing relative strength characteristics against ROM. The more stretch the exercise provides, the more effective it will be. The closer the weak point is toward the stretch, the more effective it will be. And so on.

Working muscles in highly contracted ROM *is* useful for generating metabolic stress, boosting erk1/2 signaling, and potentially causing a better "anabolic" nutrient partitioning effect for that muscle. But, it's secondarily important.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Now for your across the body laterals... I never quite had a clear picture of how this looks.
Is it done on a bench, lying on one side? How high is the weight brought up? Parallel to floor?
Click to expand...

You can do by lying on one side on a bench. You only need to go up about eye level.

You can also use a pulley and perform them standing up, doing a horizontal motion across your body. You would stop once the hand is perpendicular to your body.

cheers,
Jules
 
Hey Blaks85

A nice article and some points, however I still feel that d/b lateral and bent over raises are doing their job just fine :D

Hey...mind you...never a prblem to try out the d/b upright row with wide grip, the narrow grip I used to do and...it really hurts the shoulder joint, there is something that makes the movement unatural
dozingoff.gif


Vicious
tounge.gif
welcome back...where the heck where you? As always, good counter artixcles and reasons with sound knowledge!

Missed your presence here for a spell...

Ciao
 
Hey

Ever tried this angle for side laterals? :)

Hang from a cage or other solid foundation until body is at 45 degree angle to hanging surface, then perform side laterals to the shoulder level.

For bent over rows, I place my head on the preacher bench, makes my back just right, then perform them without any cheating.

Sure, there is not much of an increment you can do, but using "biscuits" you can increment untill you are quite at the right amount of resistance.

No matter what the "experts" might say, my delts are doing just fine and I am happy, so I'll keep on doing it!
laugh.gif


My recipe? Simple:
W/O A - Military presses 2 or 3 sets, alll the way to 50 kgs at negs (have been to 60kg) but want to keep strict movement this time

W/O B - Lateral Raises followed by bent over raises no rest x 1 set each all the way to 16 Kgs (dang heavy at this point but OK with partner).

Hey...mind you, I'm going to thropw in the d/b wide grip upright row next cycle, then I'll feed back.

Fausto
Fausto
 
I have a big problem getting my mid delts up to size...

So doing the upright rows would be great, but as all said, I too fear the rotator stuff..

Have done lateral raises, both with dumbbells as across the body (with cables), but they don't seem to do it all for me.

Could anybody explain how to to wide grip db upright rows? I could understand wide grip bb upright row...

Does it mean I hold the dumbells like 15" from each other at the bottom/top, or am I missing something?

Also, Jules, do you have an example on how to perform them behind the back?


Thnx!

daxie
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Have done lateral raises, both with dumbbells as across the body (with cables), but they don't seem to do it all for me.
Click to expand...

One problem with the lateral raise is that, because the max weight is relatively low, there's not a lot of progressive load you can do with it. The trick with the cable lateral is to twist the hip just before the movement goes into proper lockout.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]where the heck where you?
Click to expand...
Busy with work, mate. But I try to keep reasonably up-to-date with PMs. "Reasonably." ;)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Also, Jules, do you have an example on how to perform them behind the back?
Click to expand...

Right behind your back, just below the buttocks to just above your waistline. To enhance stretch, you learn slightly forward. It's more of a stretch technique than a proper movement, per se.

This is a natural candidate for LS or static holds. If you don't want to do upright rows, then basically whatever you're deadlifting, and hold it behind your back for 30-60 seconds.

And instead of doing cable laterals, you'd basically just hold the sucker at near-lockout across your body, making sure to turn your hip. You're also much stronger, and so you could start with 20-30% higher load and probably go 50-80% of your normal 1RM. Since you have such high load variation to work with, you can start doing both during 10s if you'd like.

Your media delts will respond in a hurry.

cheers,
Jules
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (vicious @ July 29 2005,3:27)]And instead of doing cable laterals, you'd basically just hold the sucker at near-lockout across your body, making sure to turn your hip. You're also much stronger, and so you could start with 20-30% higher load and probably go 50-80% of your normal 1RM. Since you have such high load variation to work with, you can start doing both during 10s if you'd like.
Click to expand...
So that would mean...
For a right arm raise...

Begin: Body slightly twisted to the left, arm crossed to the left
During: bringing weight up while untwisting body and raising arm...
Should I use semi-cheating? (lower part not cheating, upper part bit of cheating)
End: arm horizontal, body straight...

Am I correct or am I missing something?

Daxie
 
Shoulder widht upright rows, starting with the weights on the legs, ending up at neck level, 12 inches infront of you, was Vince Girondas prefered shoulder exercise.

He always stated that you should focus on the middle part of the delt and belived that only very advanced trainees should use press movements for the delts.

I completly agree.

Jonas
 
then basically whatever you're deadlifting, and hold it behind your back for 30-60 seconds.

vicious
it is almost a ls as if the start position of behind the back shrugs??
 
Wow! All good responses. And to Vicious, great rebutal (excuse my spelling if its wrong)! I mean after all, you are rated as a HST expert. I feel that my point still stands, tho' yours i must say has equal merrits. I guess it all depends on the person, and what feels right to them.
1 more thing, this board gets much props!
worship.gif
 
Just another idea here or more likely an observation.

I have noticed, through experimentation, that on upright rows I don't even go as high as the nipples, as Jules has said, sticking in the lower stronger ROM has some good benefits. If contemplating upright rows I think following Jules' advice makes a lot of sense and most importantly, works.

Second observation, when performing Presses the further your elbows are apart the more you recruit the Lateral (some call it medial)Deltoid. Again use a reduced ROM with your elbows out to the sides bring the bar or DB to the top of your head or to your ears, no lower. To understand try this, take a light DB with one hand and hold it front of you like you are going to press it up. Place your free hand on the opposing delt, you will notice that the anterior delts are contracted, now swing your elbow out (the arm holding the DB) you will feel the lateral delts begin to activate. This is why Arnold presses are so effective.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ July 29 2005,5:38)]Again use a reduced ROM with your elbows out to the sides bring the bar or DB to the top of your head or to your ears, no lower.
Click to expand...

What is the reason for reducing the ROM?  Is there a safety issue, or does the upper portion involve the medial delt more? It seems like that would remove the strong range of the exercise and potentially limit the load, or at least the number of reps one could complete.
 
Incidentally, I've been doing wide grip upright rows and the behind the back version that Vicious described, for about 9 months.  It has done a lot for me and I've never had any rotator cuff problems.  Just thought I'd share.   :)
 
Since I do deadlift again I have noticed some side delts growth. Does it make sense ?
crazy.gif
After all it's like an isometric upright row... in the strongest range of motion.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top