my new higher frequency program

[Totentanz]

I forgot to mention - working out at home helps immensely in being able to do higher frequency. If I had to go to a gym for that, I wouldn't have time to do it ever.

 

[Lance]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ July 27 2005,6:41)]Lance, I personally don't think it's anymore advantageous. But as I said earlier that's just me and by no means I am saying don't do it. If you have good success then that is great.
But one has to ask if you had taken the exact same volume with the exact same loads and the exact same nutrition while working out full body 3X week would you have experienced the same results, worse, better?

So DKM, i've been thinking about this. Do you, Bryan, Aaron, DKM, anyone i missed (and sorry if i did) know if anything over 3xweek (or every 48 hours for that matter) is any more beneficial than higher frequency?

Otherwise, i'd rather work the muscles 3xweek, and just up the volume. Instead of 6xweek at 1 set, 3xweek at 2 sets. It will remove one variable. I'd really like to know if higher frequency is any different than the pre-determined frequency at the same volume level.

 

[BoSox]

well theoretically, probably, because of the diminishing returns of subsequent sets, etc. but from a practical standpoint, it's probably inconsequential.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Lance @ Aug. 04 2005,6:16)]Do you, Bryan, Aaron, DKM, anyone i missed (and sorry if i did) know if anything over 3xweek (or every 48 hours for that matter) is any more beneficial than higher frequency?
Otherwise, i'd rather work the muscles 3xweek, and just up the volume.  Instead of 6xweek at 1 set, 3xweek at 2 sets.  It will remove one variable.  I'd really like to know if higher frequency is any different than the pre-determined frequency at the same volume level.

Since I am DKM I guess I'll answer twice Although I don't know of any studies that dictate such but Bryan himself has mentioned a time or two that it may be good to take the days off and add some deep tissue massage. Not to mention just palin ole rest. Not recouperation but just rest, ease your mind and relax do some other things so you have a good state of mind and eagerness when you hit the weights again.

Although I don't know of any studies that dictate such but Bryan himself has mentioned a time or two that it may be good to take the days off and add some deep tissue massage. Not to mention just palin ole rest. Not recouperation but just rest, ease your mind and relax do some other things so you have a good state of mind and eagerness when you hit the weights again.

 

[jvroig]

He really did answer twice!

 

[jvroig]

Anyhoo... regarding 6x a week versus 3x a week...

My two cents on this matter would depend heavily on 2 things:
1.) The number of sets/reps
2.) The general  environment of daily "stress" you deal with

(Of course, I am referring to 6x a week full body, not 6x training a week but splitting it into half-body exercises, making it just a split 3x a week routine)

First, #1: the number of sets and reps. All other things being equal (like diet, rest, etc.), whether you do 6x a week or 3x a week wouldn't matter much if the number of sets/reps are the same. So if you do 3x a week 2 sets each, that's just the same as 6x a week of only 1 set each. At the end of the week, the muscles get trained the same number of sets/reps. No big deal. Unless of course you can't manage 2 sets at 3x a week due to some other factors: eaily fatigued or heavier weights.

But the point here is, if the number of sets/reps remain pretty much the same, then virtually no difference.

But performing 6x a week with the same number of sets per workout as 3x a week would mean the muscles are getting more work (6x a week 2 sets each versus 3x a week 2 sets each). Generally, if your diet can accomodate the stark increase in exercise, then more volume still spread out evenly would mean more growth. But this doesn't always mean noticeable hypertrophy. Also, due to more frequent loading, your increments might have to be a little higher than regular in order to stay ahead of RBE. But on the other hand, given that muscle adaptation isn't instant and it generally takes around 7-14 days, that wouldn't be a problem unless perhaps if you repeat a weight often, zigzag a lot, or your increments are low.

In the short run, it may not matter so much since noticeable hypertrophy may not differ so much after a cycle or two, but in the long run, the rule is, all other things being equal (diet is still ok, fatigue especially CNS fatigue is managed well, etc) more volume would be better, unless the difference in volume is pretty small. We don't say less is better because muscles like less stimulation, but because it helps us manage everything better, makes us better able to keep things (that is, bodybuilding elements) from falling apart. So if you've been training for 6x a week with significantly higher volume than the standard 3x a week, and you are still able to maintain a diet proper for this and also manage your fatigue pretty well, go ahead. May not produce noticeable hypertrophy immediately, but if you keep it up well, in the long run it most probably would.

Now, #2, the general environment of daily "stress". Not just bodybuilding stress/fatigue is important. If you live a hectic daily life because of a super busy and stressful career where you are on-call 24/7 (like me), that is a whole different story. Chronic fatigue syndrome can be caused by non-physical causes, and adding frequent bodybuilding to the mix makes your chances of escaping it far lower.

My point there is simple: sure, you may have a great diet, and are controlling the volume for 6x a week training excellently, but if your life outside bodybuilding is toxic, then your body deserves more rest. This is not for the muscles. The muscles don't care how much crap you get in the office, they're good to go after (or at the peak of) protein synthesis no matter if the boss kicked your butt at the office and the wife don't want to get it on at night. But on the opposite side, the rest of your nervous system needs a rest. They don't care about protein synthesis, they care about you getting over the stress produced at work, at home, and everywhere else.

Hope that helps. Just my two cents  
-JV

 

[Renky]

I know this is an old thread, but did anyone discuss how much time a muscle needs for recovery? If you train say arms every day, is this allowing enough time for the muscle to recover?

Thanks.

 

[Totentanz]

Muscles don't need recovery time, that is part of the basis behind the entire theory of hst. Refer to Bryan's original hst articles.

 

[Old and Grey]

Wow Renky, you reached back 8 years to find that thread so you must obviously be serious about HST. Hopefully Totz's forthcoming e-book on HST will put it all in one place and negate the need to do all that hit or miss research.

 

[Renky]

Really? I thought Bryan's website talked about 48 hours? With Totentanz's post, are you saying that I could train a body part everyday or even twice a day, everyday?

I was looking through the forum to see what others routines were like and I came across these posts where people were discussing training HST 6X to 12X a week. I thought it was interesting, but could not find where people were allowing time for recovery. Just curious as it seemed different to the regular HST that Bryan set out?

I have been training for 20 years or so now (off and on) and must say that HST works the best and is kinder to the joints for sure.

Thanks.

 

[Totentanz]

Really? I thought Bryan's website talked about 48 hours?

Not necessarily. Bryan sets up his outline of HST for the cookie cutter routine with Mon, Wed, Fri training days. He doesn't say this is because the muscle needs 48 hours to rest, he says that the muscle needs frequent exposure to loads. He also elaborates by saying this:

What most people understand to be overtraining is a result of Central Nervous System (CNS) fatigue. It has been mistakenly believed that overtraining symptoms arise from fatigue of the muscle tissue itself. Research has demonstrated this NOT to be the case. Keeping CNS fatigue low during frequent training allows dramatic strength gains, thus allowing higher and higher poundages to be used thus promoting ongoing hypertrophy.

With Totentanz's post, are you saying that I could train a body part everyday or even twice a day, everyday?

Yes, as long as you manage volume to prevent CNS fatigue.

I was looking through the forum to see what others routines were like and I came across these posts where people were discussing training HST 6X to 12X a week. I thought it was interesting, but could not find where people were allowing time for recovery. Just curious as it seemed different to the regular HST that Bryan set out?

Here is the frequency principle of HST. You'll note that it does not put actual time frames such as "train every 48 hours" or anything like that:

2) Acute vs. Chronic Stimuli
In order for the loading to result in significant hypertrophy, the stimulus must be applied with sufficient frequency to create a new "environment", as opposed to seemingly random and acute assaults on the mechanical integrity of the tissue. The downside of taking a week of rest every time you load a muscle is that many of the acute responses to training like increased protein synthesis, prostaglandins, IGF-1 levels, and mRNA levels all return to normal in about 36 hours. So, you spend 2 days growing and half a week in a semi-anticatabolic state returning to normal (some people call this recovery), when research shows us that recovery can take place unabated even if a the muscle is loaded again in 48 hours. So true anabolism from loading only lasts 2 days at best once the load is removed. The rest of the time you are simply balancing nitrogen retention without adding to it.

Later in the article, he also says the following:

• The whole workout can be split into a morning and afternoon session. It can likewise be doubled, performing the same workout morning and evening. Keeping volume (number of sets and exercises) low is critical if doubling the workout.

Also in the FAQ section, he has the following to say about frequency:

Also read the Planning Your Training Frequency article.

The reason HST calls for more frequent training is because the acute anabolic effects of training, such as increased protein synthesis, muscle-specific IGF-1 expression, and other factors involved in modulation of short term protein synthesis, only last for 36-48 hours. There is also mounting evidence of a "summation" effect by exercising while levels of these signals and responses are elevated, as should be expected.

This does not mean that the structural repairs to the tissue have been completed. Research has demonstrated that you can train a muscle before it is fully recovered structurally and not inhibit its ability to continue to recover. So, HST uses this evidence and calls for repeated loading (training) every 48 hours or so to keep the anabolic activity of the muscle high, while trying to stay slightly ahead of the structural recovery curve by constantly increasing the load each workout. Staying ahead of the structural recovery curve is really key to elicit real growth in a person who has lifted for quite a while. Of course, injuries can develop over time if care isn't taken to take time to heal, and prepare the tendons for repeated heavy bouts of lifting (SD and 15s serve this purpose in HST).

"Recovery" can refer to several different things.

1) "Recovery" can refer to the structural repair process of fixing the microtrauma. The damaged proteins can takes several days to be repaired and all evidence of damage removed. Even at the end of seven days after significant muscle damage from eccentric muscle actions, you may still see some small fibers regenerating.

2) Strength - this can be acute recovery as in the necessary time to rest between sets. Or it can mean the days that it usually takes to regain baseline strength after muscle damaging exercise.

So the trick is to have the CNS "recover" just in time to hit the muscle again as the acute anabolic effects are wearing off. That way you can stay anabolic more of the time. Training once every 7 days will still allow you to grow, it just takes longer for the gains to accumulate. Training more frequently is more efficient if your goal is just to get bigger

To understand, you have to consider the total volume over time. A week is easiest to consider, so, over the course of a week, it is the total volume that is important. So 9 total sets for chest can be done in one workout or in several workouts. Both will stimulate growth. However, you will be anabolic more of the time if you can actually create that stimulus more often. In the case of HST, 3 times as often. There is a physiological benefit (acute anabolic effects of training) in doing 9 sets as 3 sets X 3 workouts, as opposed to 9 sets all at once - and then nothing for the next 7 days.

As you can see, muscle "recovery" begins immediately, and is actually the phase we want the muscle to be in as much as possible. We do this by training frequently enough that the muscle is always "recovering" or i.e. signalling for growth, remodeling, etc. If you really want to train 6 - 12 times a week and you have enough time to do this, you can potentially improve your muscle gains.

 

[Renky]

Thanks for the information and clarification Totentanz, it is much appreciated. Sorry for dragging up an old thread and that this has become a re-hash of the HST basics.

I will be trying out the added frequency on some lagging parts for sure.

You know... It goes to show how a lot of the main stream publications lead people astray...

 

[Lol]

All good points.

And there is another point made in the FAQs about muscle tissue continuing to hypertrophy whilst kept under load. I think this was shown in the case of a rat (a lab rat, not a gym rat) where the gastrocnemius of one hind leg was "taken out of commission" so that the soleus had to take over its role and deal with the increased loading. It didn't require any rest in order to hypertrophy. But that was a rat.

Because of the inherent difficulty in working large muscle groups with high frequency, ie. because your CNS gets fried, it's not easy to increase the frequency much over 3 or four times a week without feeling totally beaten up all the time. However, it would be fun to try high(er) frequency for a small muscle group, such as upper-arms, or perhaps even bis OR tris rather than both. So, for one cycle you could focus on bis and for another cycle you could focus on tris. That shouldn't impact on your CNS recovery too much so you would still be able to manage the the rest of your training.

Renky, I'm sure this has been tried in the case of arms, so it might be worth trawling through old threads to see how much difference it made over a 3 x weekly routine; my guess is probably not a lot. The problem with specialising on arms is that they get used in all the big upper-body compounds so you might compromise your other upper-body lifts if your arms are constantly being/feeling hammered. So, whilst complete structural recovery is not essential between bouts, it probably does help a bit to "feel" good to go, even if that's more psychological than physiological. Still, it might be worth a try.

 

[Renky]

LOL - I am keen to give higher frequency a try for my biceps. These are lagging with my overall symmetry. One other thing about my biceps, I feel that I can work these pretty hard, a lot harder than say my chest. I feel that my biceps could be trained twice a day at times. I usually hammer them hard and they are flogged at the end of a workout, but come later that evening or the next day they feel ready for another flogging. I will see how things go.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. It all helps knowing what others have learned. I am no rookie with bodybuilding, but HST and it's principles... I am still getting my head around. I guess the early years of those gym magazines brain washed me...

 

[Old and Grey]

There was also a study done on birds where a control group of birds was split into two groups. With all other things being equal, 1/2 of the group had a small weight attached to one of its wings. I don't recall for how long. However, the results showed the group that was under a constant load had much more significant strength gains than the other group. This has since been done with other animals who were weighted constantly versus for short periods of time one to three times per week with similar results as the bird experiment indicating that frequency can be continuous and still induce more gains than other less frequent routines. I am currently training my lats a minimum of 5 times per day (1 set) every day and after 3 weeks the results have been amazing. For small muscles like biceps though, perhaps a daily frequency of only once or twice (1 set) may be more appropriate.

 

[Sci]

This is all very interesting. One thing I would mention, is that while yes, you can train a muscle every day, it isnt recommended for longterm for good reason. With heavier loads, there will be accumulated damage of tendons, tissue, etc. that will eventually cause overuse injury, inflammation and other negative consequences. 48 hours is a good rule of thumb, because much of these damages will be healed, and there won't be the long term accumulation of tissue damage/injury that can occur with extremely high frequency heavy loading.

 

[Lol]

I think it's interesting to note the size of calf muscles in folks who are carrying around a lot more "mass" than the average person. Generally speaking, their calves are noticeably more muscular than the average, which makes some sense when you consider how much extra work their calves are doing.

I also think that it is less likely to cause over-use injury if reps are done as strictly as possible for any muscle group that you are intending to hit with high frequency. It is surprising how you can get conditioned to high frequency, though, which means that you can't expect to make a ton of progress in one looong cycle because you will find RBE catching up to you more quickly than if you trained less frequently. I think that's the rub.

I'm going to run an experiment on a trainee: I'll plan out an arm specialisation routine that he can do 6 days a week, which will be on top of his regular training—he doesn't hit arms directly in any of that. I have to make sure he does what I set out and I'll take measurements and photos too. He'll have to keep track of calories but he will aim to add weight over the course of the experiment.

I'm thinking of a 6-week cycle, 6-days a week: 2 weeks 8s; 2 weeks 4s; 2 weeks 2s/negs.
For the final 2-week mesocycle, I'll get him to do one week with sets of 2 positives + 3 negatives and then the second week will be negative-only sets for around 5 reps each. I'm not sure about volume yet but I'm thinking two or three sets. Maybe start with 2 sets for the first two weeks and then and then three sets for the rest of the cycle.

I'm going to get him to do stretch-point movements: dumbbell curls for bis (lowering out to the side) so that he can assist himself for the final 2 weeks of 2s/negs. I might get him to try single-arm overhead-tri extensions for tris. The load can be push-pressed or push-jerked overhead for each rep during negs. Not quite as easy to do as the curls so I may change that.

It'll be interesting to see how it works out. If it starts to impact too much on the rest of his training, I'll lower the volume by having him only train arms on non-gym-training days.

 

[Renky]

Well... I will be giving it a try on my arms for sure, starting this week. Will be interesting to see how it goes.