ok lets row!

In my world, rows are for nothing but back thickness, not width. I go as heavy as 405 lbs sometimes and I use bad form. I don't jerk or hitch, but when I'm going heavy my torso will move--ALOT (from 90 all the way up to 45 degrees), and it is hard on my lower back, but my lower back can take it. Going as heavy as possible and doing my best to make my middle back do all the work (although not succeeding) is what works best for me.
 
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(drpierredebs @ Oct. 26 2006,04:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The women has the best form of the three, but she is using light weight and not deweighting
The middle guy needs to lower the weight because he needs to flex his hips to get it up, he will have back problems eventually.
The first guy is about perfect if only held his back a little more like the women.
Massive strength wil be gained if done like the women but deweighting between reps.
Let the BOR rows humble you first, then fight and achieve a massively strong back.</div>
Agreed, I used the woman as my guide for learning them (but deweighting and re-gripping the bar with each rep). Lencho definitely brings his hips and knees into it a bit much; VikingMan is pretty much the form I shoot for.

I shoot for perfect form on all but maybe the last rep or 2, if I cheat those a little bit I don't worry too much.
 
Barbell rows are such an intricate compound movement that I find this thread very educational. I have tried strict rows and rows more like how stevejones describes them and honestly the rows as steve describes them seem more natural to me and more weight can be used. And based on back development, I think I will start doing them as he does, no offense guys, but Steve has the biggest back of all of us and natural! 400 lb.s!, jeez. no wonder your back is so thick!
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yeah, 405 might sound impressive, but just remember that if I was using strict pendlay type form I'd have to cut the weight almost in half.  

There are probably many bbers with thicker backs than mine who use strict form, and I know without a doubt that there are many bbers with thicker backs than mine who do the heavyweight/sloppy form style.  You just have to do what works for you.   If heavy weight/sloppy form style works for you, that's great, but just remember to not get too sloppy and be careful so you avoid an injury. I do squats on the same day as rows, but never deadlift on the same day.
 
What's the opinion on using the T-bar type row machine? I mean the type with no seat, a pad for your chest, and the plates are loaded on a bar that sits on a pedestal to the side a little, often has 2 or 3 different grip &quot;handlebars&quot; to pull on.
I used to love that machine, with five or so plates on it, slamming it at the top against the bottom of the chest pad (CLANK!!!), and I wish I had one at home. It felt like it really hit the upper back well. I used it because my lower back is trashed.
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(quadancer @ Oct. 27 2006,09:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What's the opinion on using the T-bar type row machine? I mean the type with no seat, a pad for your chest, and the plates are loaded on a bar that sits on a pedestal to the side a little, often has 2 or 3 different grip &quot;handlebars&quot; to pull on.
   I used to love that machine, with five or so plates on it, slamming it at the top against the bottom of the chest pad (CLANK!!!), and I wish I had one at home. It felt like it really hit the upper back well. I used it because my lower back is trashed.  
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i think these are excellent especially for some one with back problems.obviously they take the weight of the hams and lower back(which can give strength)but i would def use them.
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(quadancer @ Oct. 27 2006,09:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What's the opinion on using the T-bar type row machine? I mean the type with no seat, a pad for your chest</div>
Chest supported rows - I wish I had access to one of those. Terriffic lift to make the back thick and w i d e.
 
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(quadancer @ Oct. 27 2006,09:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">. I used it because my lower back is trashed.  
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I use bent over rows for back thickness now, but the best exercise I've ever done that I believe worked my back better than anything I've done since is the weighted wide grip pull up (not chin ups, but pull ups--where your knuckles are pointed toward your face).  I'll go back to them, but I use weighted chin ups for back width now and doing chin ups AND pull ups was just too taxing on my biceps.  Weighted pull ups are an oustanding exercise, and definitely what I'd be doing for back thickness if I had a lower back problem.  I'd also get a weight vest or at least use some kind of contraption to keep the weights off the lower back.
 
I'm doing pretty good in the lat department, but feel like I need more thickness in the upper back, so that's why I do the cable row to the breastplate at home. I switched to narrow pullups earlier this year and got some more lat growth; wide doesn't necessarily do it for everyone. At least, not forever. We had a long discussion going on the MN forum about them. When I plateau on the narrow, I'll switch back to wide.
Still, I sure miss that t-bar machine!

Snif. It was my friend...
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(stevejones @ Oct. 26 2006,20:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">yeah, 405 might sound impressive, but just remember that if I was using strict pendlay type form I'd have to cut the weight almost in half.  

There are probably many bbers with thicker backs than mine who use strict form, and I know without a doubt that there are many bbers with thicker backs than mine who do the heavyweight/sloppy form style.  You just have to do what works for you.   If heavy weight/sloppy form style works for you, that's great, but just remember to not get too sloppy and be careful so you avoid an injury.   I do squats on the same day as rows, but never deadlift on the same day.</div>
I really like BB rows now. They used to be my least favorite exercise. I do them with a tight lower back, (no rounding), and start at about 90 degrees and as I pull I let my hamstrings pull my torso higher up and pull the bar to my belly. It really felt good and hit my hamstrings, lower back, lats, traps, etc. I felt no belt is needed if the lower back is kept tight and the hams and mid-back do the pulling, I am just curious Steve with the heavy loads you use, do you wear a belt?, I would think it is uneeded if back is strong enough and back is not rounded at all.
 
My form is actually very similiar to what you'll see Cutler or Ronnie doing in any of their videos.  I tried doing Pendlay form for several months, but just didn't do much for me.  The only time you will ever catch me using a belt in the gym is when I'm loading the leg press machine or loading a bar for the deadlift.  I never use a belt for any exercise.
 
anyone do straight leg rows or on a platform?saw arnie doin em in a video the other day,looked pretty good.
 
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(stevejones @ Oct. 26 2006,20:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">yeah, 405 might sound impressive, but just remember that if I was using strict pendlay type form I'd have to cut the weight almost in half.</div>
I do pretty strict Pendlay's, hit 260 5x5 last night, PR!

You mean there may be one lift where I can pull more than you stevejones? There is hope for me yet.
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