Optimal Cutting/Bulking PSMF/IF

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by nkl, May 29, 2008.

  1. nkl

    nkl Member

    Some of us have tried doing IF a while but are concerned with loosing mass during fasting (even if evidence says that no loss occurs). There have been proposed that supplementing protein during the 'fast' would benefit PS (the more the better). And, what of doing this modified IF for bulking? And, what of doing a cutting/bulking scheme every other day? You are invited to the party. What are your thoughts on this (studies, etc)?
  2. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    Thanks for starting this up nkl!

    Its 2:08 am. Again, I'm on the cut/low-carb/hypocaloric portion of my ultimate diet 2.0 week. I absolutely, cannot sleep. I've taken 4 mg melatonin, and done two cardio sessions today. wow.

    Here is a post I found at Lyle's that absolutely got me going. This is Lyle's reply to, it looks like, the infamous scimuscle [​IMG] :

    note: from the other forum, slightly different question, more about how to maximize one's genetic potential as fast as possible.

    Originally Posted by scimuscle
    In the bodybuilding pursuit, where one wants to add as much lean mass as possible over time, (and eventually also ending up lean), which is the best strategy for this?

    A) Long, slow and steady bulk over a long period of time followed by a cut.
    (extreme example- dave gulledge ballooning up to a 320 lb. fatass powerlifter and then finally cutting down after many years.)

    B) Moderately long bulking periods followed by moderate cut periods, alternated over time. (very common, some guys use the 10-15 rule, bulk at 10% bf, cut at 15% bf).

    C)Bodyrecomping: trying to gain lean mass slowly without getting fat in the process. (e.g.- martin's 'leangains' IF bulk, etc.)

    Ideas? I am sure this has been discussed before, but a fresh thread here about bodyrecomposition bulking, (i.e. bodybuilding) should be fun. And I really do not know the answer to this as most peeps here seem obsessed with getting super lean, without nearly as much talk about getting fuckin' HUGE.
    maybe, maybe not, because you have to look at both the bulking time and dieting time

    now, we know that, without drugs, there is a limit to how fast you can gain muscle. let's say it's about 0.5 lbs/week which will hold for beginners and hold progressively less well as folks get more advanced

    further assume that you can gain, max, mayb 40 lbs muscle beyon where you started

    so, in theory, that's 80 weeks of straight gaining. lots of wrong assumptions here, mind you. you wouldn't gain 0.5 lbs/week week in week out. but it'll make the math easier

    that's just under 2 years of straight bulking to get close to genetic limits. again, in the ral world, it'll take longer than that.

    now, gaining fat at a faster rate won't necessarly increase muscle mss gains beyond that

    the danger with GFH that I see is that in maximizing muscle mass gains you may get disproportionate fat gains. that oculd hold for option 'b' as well, if you're eating way too much, you put on fat faster than necessary (e.g. with no benefit to muscle mass) although, in practice, that just shortens the time fram before you switch into dieting

    so say you GFH for 1.5 years straight to gain 40 lbs of muscle. how much fat did you put on. at least 40 lbs. maybe more if you go nuts. that's a solid year of dieting to get lean again. So 3 years

    will alternating bulking/cutting get it done faster. again, I'd say it comes down to how effectively you bulk vs. diet. but whereas 6 months of GFH would just be straight muslce gains, that same 6 months of alternating is, at best, 3 months of gaining mass. you don't get as fat but it still takes approximately twice as long to hit your muscle maximum

    of corse, option c cuts down dieting time since you stay much leaner. but it might also slow gains in muscle mass (depending on how you implement it)

    so it seems at a very rough first approximation to more or less balance out

    I seem to have lost my train of thought

    say you gain the same 0.5 lbs muscle/week doing it this way and assume 3 month bulk cycle + 3 month diet cycle. assume zero muscle loss on the diet. So you get 6 lbs LBM every 6 months. That's 7 cycles or 42 months to max out muscle and be lean again. 3.5 years which is basically the same time frame as with the GFH + diet for 1.5 years approach.

    say taht by limiting fat gains all the time you reduce your msucle gain slightly. Let's say you cut it in half to 0.25 lbs/week but you eliminate all dieting time. So now it will take you 160 weeks to gain 40 lbs of muscle mass. or about 40 months. but you look much prettier the whole time doing it.

    and some more:

    IMO, 1 week cycles are not long enough to see sufficient results.

    Layne norton (a bodyuilder) advocated 4-6 weeks of bulking followed by 2 weeks cutting to keep fat gain at bay

    Kelly Baggett has his own approach where you do a short 3 day diet at the end of every 2 week cycle

    you can use the bulkin version of the UD2 to gain muscel slowly while losing a bit of fat

    I'm going to tell you the diet equivalent of what I told DannyG about training: you're going to spend the next year looking for the BESt approach to this when what you shoudl be doing (as, IIRC, an overfat beginner) is getting into the gym and training. fat beginners can lose fat while gaining muscle without doing ANYTHING esoteric

    until you get the fundamentals of training and eating nailed down, looking for more complex approaches is not only unlikely to yield benefit, ti will end up hurting you down the road

    here is the whole thread
  3. nkl

    nkl Member

    Thanks, Being.

    Here's more food for thought. I copied it directly from the book Exercise and Sports Science, edited by Garrett and Kirkendall (link to Google books, but that does not contain these), split in three posts):
  4. nkl

    nkl Member

  5. nkl

    nkl Member


    Here is the studies for ref 24 and 26.
  6. nkl

    nkl Member

    To quote Steve Jones back in december 2006 (how much protein are you getting-thread):
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">When cutting, 2.2 grams per kilogram

    When bulking, 4.4 grams per kilogram

    Most bbers who have had the size I wanted and posted their diets or protein intake ate at least that or more.  Same way with plifters who have acquired the kind of strength I want.  Those are my only reasons.  

    It worked</div>
    Remember, whatever excess protein you get, and can't use for protein synthesis, will be oxidized (or gotten rid of any other way). That is, it will be added to the other fuels (fat and carbs). It is also a bit more thermogenic so you will feel nice and cosy most of the time.

    Edit: A quote from Body maintenance and repair: how food and exercise keep the musculoskeletal system in good shape, Michael J Rennie, Exp Physiol 2005;90;427-436 (link)
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What we found was that the major component of food responsible for stimulation of muscle protein synthesis was amino acids present as protein in food. No other component or normal response turns out to be as powerful as blood amino acid concentration. ... Foods insufficient in specific essential amino acids (e.g. haemoglobin or wheat protein) are not capable of sustaining the lean body mass or supporting growth without other protein sources. ... during feeding of a proteinrich meal muscle protein breakdown decreases about 20%, whereas muscle protein synthesis may double. Regulation of muscle bulk protein also appears to be attuned not to a direct effect of protein but to a secondary effect of the stimulation of insulin by components of a meal, including glucose and amino acids. ... The relationship between the availability of amino acids and the extent of stimulation ofmuscle protein synthesis is curvilinear (Bohe et al. 2003), suggesting that the process is saturated at high concentrations of amino acids, about five times those which are normally found in the bloodstream even after a rather large meal.</div>
  7. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    is that 2.2 gr/kg lean mass, nkl? Or total body weight?

    this could be a good thread. maybe I'll be able to sleep AND cut by next week...woohoooo

    BTW, the system you mentioned you were attempting: on 'anabolic' days, are you setting your calories at maintenance, above, or below, and on 'cutting' days, are you cutting it in half?

    this conversation started back HERE for everyone else
  8. bluejacket

    bluejacket New Member

    i have eaten in the IF fashion since oct 07 for recomp, maint as well as bulking. i have read a number of studies, findings etc. in that time but i do not save them or qoute them or refer to them.......its just not my thing/interest. i do appreciate those that do (dan,yourself and others) but i am not one of them so.........everything that follows is from personal exper. or posts that i have read, take it for what its worth.

    concerning your orig. question(s).
    the best diet or exer. plan is one you can stick with. if an over-riding fear of losing muscle mass is keeping you from sticking with an IF diet, despite the evidence otherwise, then by all means add some meals (pro) in. much like those that have problems with hunger on IF and add in a small pro meal in the AM to &quot;get thru&quot; you keep most of the benefit form IF while adapting it to your needs/sched. so you can actually stay &quot;on&quot; the diet for any length of time. or, honestly, if your not convinced you wont lose mass by fasting for 16hrs then just pick a diff diet plan.

    as far as IF for bulking i dont really think looking at it as cutting/bulking every other day is practical. imo the main priciple behind IF is &quot;get most of you intake around your w/o&quot; . this is true for bulk,cut or recomp its just the cal levels that change. obviously for cutting you would run a weekly cal deficit despite eating above maint. on w/o days. for recomp the weekly deficit would be much smaller perhaps even pretty close to (or even above) maint. depending on how you handle IF type eating. for bulk your w/o day surpluses tend to be even greater (then re-comp or cut) but to typically achieve any real results over time the &quot;off&quot; days still neeed to fall into the maint. range. trying to cut the cals back to &quot;cutting&quot; levels on the off days will keep the fat at bay but most likely most of the potential muscle gains as well. in my exper. IF has helped improve partitioning (some) but it still comes down to cals in vs cals out.
  9. nkl

    nkl Member

    Being, the 2.2 g/kg figure is from Steve Jones, so I think he might be the best person to ask. And as for the other figures, I do not know either, since the review wasn't freely available. I think there is not much of a difference between LBM and total weight when giving out these kinds of reference values, especially 4.4 g/kg or more. It will be hard enough to actually eat that much protein (unless we resort to binge drinking protein shakes).

    With that said, I will now present something slightly different:

    Introducing the 24/24 Intermittent PSMF

    Background. I do not think the 'every-other-day-16/8' scheme is the best for either bulking or cutting (for reasons I will discuss below), although I've tried it for some while (didn't do it rigorously enough to make any comments on the results).
    - A fast only 16 hours long would not neccessarily empty the hepatic stores of glucogen, thus you will not burn fat as effective as a longer fasting period.
    - I also believe that the 8 hour feeding window is to narrow to really achieve much. And some of the protein ingested might not be used for PS if there is a temporary saturation of muscle amino acid in the muscle storage (which isn't that big). The excess protein goes to waste, and when the PS need amino acids, there is a deficit in the free amino acid pool, and thereby protein degradation of another protein source is used to get the amino acids needed. This might be faulty, but this is my understanding as of now. Maybe an amino acid saturated muscle can be supported the entire interval from its own supply, but I do not think so.

    The 24/24 Internmittent PSMF idea. I figured that if the elevated PS response is approximately 24 hours, then you should actually have an elevated intake of food matching that time interval - not only in one or two meals. Then when the stint of bulking is done, you refrain from eating anything other than lean protein (and veggies) until next workout, effectively cutting. That would mean eating for 24 h, and then go for a 24 h PSMF (and perhaps get some serious fat burning during the last 8-12 hours, while preserving the LBM). I think this technique is called a 24/24 IF. The new element is that you do not truly fast, but do PSMF.

    This would also mean eating plenty above maintenance when eating (protein target 3+ g/kg), and just enough calories from protein during the fast (think at least 2 g protein/kg). For a 70 kg guy (154 lbs), this would mean 140 grams a day, which isn't that much (560 kcal plus additional fats from the meat). To be on the safe side, go for 3 g/kg, i.e., 210 grams a day, which gives at least 840 kcal plus some from the fats (no big deal, unless you eat some fatty meat like bacon).

    The weekly caloric balance may be higher if truly bulking, or less if truly cutting. The thing to remember is that total calories in-out counts, but I also believe that there is some partitioning depending on expenditure, e.g., if glycogen stores are truly depleted, the more carbs you can eat before de novo fat synthesis kicks you in the b*tt. Eating a lot of fat together with carbs are not adviced. This will push more fat into adipose tissue than into muscle stores for oxidation. De novo fat synthesis may be triggered earlier too (from what I understod from Aarons comment in another thread). Wait for the insulin surge to settle down again before you start to eat fats. You might do your carbs directly after workout, but refrain from carbs the next morning (veggies doesn't count).

    If you have 24 hours to bulk, there will be some sanity to the eating (and less stressful). And the PSMF is another bonus for keeping your mass, while shedding your spare tire. Another bonus is that both during bulk and PSMF you can actually be a social being, spending time with your family eating, or with your friends, or your workmates (without anyone lifing an eyebrown in disbelief).

    I hope this will give you something to think about. Does the 24/24 Intermittent PSMF sound more 'optimal' than the 'vanilla' 16/8 IF?
  10. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Yes, but I can't do 24. Tried that; got sick every time.
    I hate to rabbit trail this too early, but later let's discuss macro elimination without fasting.
  11. nkl

    nkl Member

    (quadancer @ May 30 2008,1:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yes, but I can't do 24. Tried that; got sick every time.
    I hate to rabbit trail this too early, but later let's discuss macro elimination without fasting.</div>
    Did you do complete fasting or PSMF when you got sick?

    Macro elimination: In the 24/24, you eliminate fats after workout doing carbs, then eliminate carbs (not veggies though) when you reintroduce fat. Protein is the same 24-7.
  12. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    Yeah. Doesn't the 24/24 satisfy macro elimination, quad? Except protein is invariant. But shouldn't it be for our goals?

    a little digression: Can you guys give me ideas on calculating maintenance calories? There are so many different calculators, formulas, 'simple' multipliers.

    Or instead of ideas, what method have you used successfully? I can use google [​IMG] thats no the point though, clearly.

    nkl: the 24/24 idea you laid out seems ideal for me, both in terms of practicality, being social, variety, and the science makes sense. In light of what I posted from Lyle, I think in the long run, all these different methods will balance out. So

    I'd MUCH rather do something that allows variation through the week, buckle down downs and cheat days, then eating 3500 calories like a machine for 2 months and then 2500 calories to cut, etc.
  13. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    (beingisbeing @ May 29 2008,11:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Can you guys give me ideas on calculating maintenance calories?</div>
    Yes. First: take a guess. Eat the same calories every day for a week or so. If you gain weight, your maintenence is lower than your guess, if you lose weight maintenence is more than your guess.

    Simple and very effective.
  14. nkl

    nkl Member

    Here is another abstract for those of you who is interested in elevated MPS:
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bohé J, Low A,Wolfe RR &amp; Rennie MJ
    Human muscle protein synthesis is modulated by extracellular, not intramuscular amino acid availability: a dose-response study

    To test the hypothesis that muscle protein synthesis (MPS) is regulated by the concentration of extracellular amino acids, we investigated the dose-response relationship between the rate of human MPS and the concentrations of blood and intramuscular amino acids. We increased blood mixed amino acid concentrations by up to 240 % above basal levels by infusion of mixed amino acids (Aminosyn 15, 44-261 mg kg-1 h-1) in 21 healthy subjects, (11 men 10 women, aged 29 ± 2 years) and measured the rate of incorporation of D5-phenylalanine or D3-leucine into muscle protein and blood and intramuscular amino acid concentrations. The relationship between the fold increase in MPS and blood essential amino acid concentration ([EAA], mM) was hyperbolic and fitted the equation MPS = (2.68  [EAA])/(1.51 + [EAA]) (P &lt; 0.01). The pattern of stimulation of myofibrillar, sarcoplasmic and mitochondrial protein was similar. There was no clear relationship between the rate of MPS and the concentration of intramuscular EAAs; indeed, when MPS was increasing most rapidly, the concentration of intramuscular EAAs was below basal levels. We conclude that the rates of synthesis of all classes of muscle proteins are acutely regulated by the blood [EAA] over their normal diurnal range, but become saturated at high concentrations. We propose that the stimulation of protein synthesis depends on the sensing of the concentration of extracellular, rather than intramuscular EAAs.

    ... the range of concentrations over which amino acids have their effect on protein synthesis and breakdown would have to be relatively narrow, since the diurnal variation in amino acid concentration in the blood is only ~ ± 50 % of the daily mean (Bergstrom et al. 1990). Finally, the effects would have to be rapid, since the excursion in blood amino acid concentrations following a meal is complete within 3 h (Bergstrom et al. 1990) and we have recently demonstrated that when increased amino acid supply is sustained for up to 6 h, the protein synthetic machinery in muscle appears to become unresponsive after 2.5 h (Bohé et al. 2001). We predicted that human MPS would be stimulated acutely by increases in amino acid supply, most of the stimulation occurring in the 12 h fasted (post-absorptive)-to-fed range, with very little additional stimulation occurring at high concentrations of amino acids.

    ... The results presented here have defined, we believe for the first time, the dose-response relationship between human MPS and EAA concentration in the blood. The results also confirm that the intramuscular concentration of EAAs fell as extracellular EAA concentrations rose in the physiological range, before rising as extracellular concentrations rise. The results support the hypothesis that there is a single curvilinear positive relationship between increase in MPS and extracellular EAAs, but that there is no such relationship between MPS and the intramuscular concentrations of EAAs. The results suggest that in the range occurring between the post-absorptive and mixed meal fed states, when blood EAAs rise by about 50-80 %, MPS rises almost linearly, but that as blood amino acids are elevated above this (e.g. by consumption of a high-protein meal or by use of high rates of amino acid infusion, clinically), MPS probably becomes saturated. This is supported by our observations that at high rates of amino acid infusion, serum urea concentration rose dramatically, presumably as a result of hepatic catabolism of amino acids delivered in excess of the capacity of the body to use them for protein synthesis.

    ... Our results have some relevance to the question of the requirement of the human body for protein. They suggest that quite modest increases in amino acid supply, within the diurnal concentration range, result in substantial changes in the rates of synthesis, and thus probably the deposition of protein in muscle. Together with our previous results showing that stimulation of MPS is time limited (Bohé et al. 2001), it appears that only modest amounts of dietary amino acids would be needed to achieve maximal stimulation of the muscle anabolic processes (i.e. for adults of average weight, 55-75 kg x 0.260 mg kg-1 h-1 x 2 h, or of the order of 30-40 g of protein). This is probably somewhat lower than the current FAO/WHO/UNU recommendation of 0.8 g kg-1 day-1 and much lower than that of 1.2 g kg -1day-1 proposed by some workers for the elderly (Campbell et al. 2001). The current results could have important implications for deciding upon protein requirements in circumstances in which the availability of protein is limited.</div>
    From this, we should eat more of the faster proteins, only less often. But take note, these subjects were not doing any work, so their needs were less than for a strength athlete. I attach a graph showing the dose-response curve.

    From another study, ingestion of protein every 2.5 hour elevated FSR. I will post the graph of artery phenylalanine concentrations over time from that study in the next post.
  15. nkl

    nkl Member

    The graph of artery phenylalanine concentrations over time from the study Exogenous amino acids stimulate human muscle anabolism without interfering with the response to mixed meal ingestion, Douglas Paddon-Jones, Melinda Sheffield-Moore, Asle Aarsland, Robert R. Wolfe, and Arny A. Ferrando, Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 288: E761–E767, 2005.
  16. nkl

    nkl Member

    On the effect of exercise and timing of protein intake on MPS, from Body maintenance and repair: how food and exercise keep the musculoskeletal system in good shape, Michael J Rennie, Exp Physiol 2005;90;427-436:
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It appears that when muscle protein synthesis is measured by incorporation of tracer into the protein there is a latency of about 90 min after exercise when the synthetic rate is similar to that at rest, but afterwards there is a very substantial increase, possibly up to 4–5 times the basal rate by 12 h, this rate being maintained for a further 12 h before falling over the subsequent 48 h. If protein-containing food or amino acids are delivered either immediately before exercise or in the postexercise period then the rise is greater. If no amino acids are delivered then protein breakdown will exceed protein synthesis and there will be no net accretion of protein.
    ... We have made some preliminary studies aimed at delineating the dose–response relationship between the intensity of exercise and the rates of muscle protein synthesis and have shown that when the same total amount of work is done, i.e. when the same total amount of ATP is turned over, exercise at 60, 75 and 90% of the one-repetition-maximum force results in exactly the same stimulation of muscle protein synthesis, suggesting that once all muscle fibres are recruited (as they were in our study) increases in tension above 65% cause no further stimulation in muscle protein synthesis (Bowtell et al. 2003).</div>
    Nothing new, but it stresses the importance of the timing of protein before or after excercise for an additional effect on MPS.
  17. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    (nkl @ May 29 2008,7:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (quadancer @ May 30 2008,1:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yes, but I can't do 24. Tried that; got sick every time.
    I hate to rabbit trail this too early, but later let's discuss macro elimination without fasting.</div>
    Did you do complete fasting or PSMF when you got sick?

    Macro elimination: In the 24/24, you eliminate fats after workout doing carbs, then eliminate carbs (not veggies though) when you reintroduce fat. Protein is the same 24-7.</div>
    Damn website wouldn't post and eliminated my work! [​IMG]
    I did complete fasting, sorry for missing the point; too many studies lately. You're actually probably talking about something I mentioned in another thread about the veggie soup in a way. (PRO/ low CHO, no fat)

    I don't eat fat around workouts any more as a rule, but I'd been thinking of some eating plans that might be better than regular P/C/F eating:
    a/ PRO/FAT morning, PRO/CHO midday, w.o., PRO/CHO post w.o, PRO/FAT evening.
    b/ PRO/CHO morning, w.o., PRO/CHO midday, PRO/FAT evening.
    c/ PRO/CHO morning, PRO/FAT midday, PRO/CHO evening, w.o, PRO/CHO post w.o.
    These are plans without fasting of course. Same for the veggie soup idea, but that will cut you down very fast and has to be temporary due to no fat. It came from a crash diet for fat people undergoing heart surgery.
    Time to go back into my brain fog pages and find out if I really need to spend bucks on a Voltage Attenuation Modulator to increase my gas output on the Hydrogen Generators or if the electromagnetic helicoil will scrub enough bubbles off the plates itself... [​IMG]
  18. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    Thank you for the studies nkl. Like you mentioned, I would take 'lower is sufficient' with a grain of salt given the sedentary population of the study.

    Quad, I think the elimination set-up makes a lot of sense. The only question is, what would you do on your off days? I'm still liking nkl's idea about virtually eliminating fat, and consuming veggie based low GI carbs. Accord to Lyle again, 15gr carbs can really take the edge off of the muscle wasting effects of ketosis, and about 50gr will attenuate it as much as possible. A little brocolli, green beans, grilled chicken and tuna, by the time you get bored and hungry, you'll be pumping the iron again!

    Only thing is, on a mon/wed/fri set up, weekends are going to suck.

    Ketel One on the rocks, anyone? No carbs, right? LOL
  19. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The only question is, what would you do on your off days?</div> Damifino. That's why I tossed the ball to you guys.
    I'm also liking NKL's ideas. It occurs that the P-only 24 is the offday of course. Then you could adjust the amount and timing of the carbload on the w.o. day. Unless you're bulking, then you'd just eat like a pig!
    Oh, and another question:
    What food is pure protein out there besides eggwhite and whey? Can you imagine 24 hours on that?
  20. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    I think solid white albacore is close? But the protein is not as bio-available, of course.

    I think second place in my knowledge would be chicken breast, without the skin. Same bio-availability issue though. And thats more tag along fat.

    I'd alloy myself skim milk, even though you get 12gr lactose per serving. I'm kind of paranoid when it comes to cutting carbs below 20gr. I've made Lyle's &quot;~50gr your safe,&quot; my mantra. As such maybe it wouldn't count as a PSMF in the strict sense.

    Now that I'm thinking of it, the prospect of cutting to strict PSMF levels/macros (900ish calories, right?) sounds kind of scary. I'm thinking the cut would retain quite a bit of clout and manageability with another 400 calories from fat and carbs? (1300ish calories is still a hell of a cut for me, given I do cardio on these off days).

    This is headache material! Especially during a carb-load. I'm eating bagel after bagel as I'm writing/reading this...

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