Quickest way to Bigger Biceps

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(RUSS @ Apr. 27 2007,08:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Dan Moore @ Apr. 27 2007,07:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Also shouldn't he be considered innocent before quilty?</div>
biggrin.gif
if he is Quilty , we should encourage him to try other crafts.</div>
Quilty was the playwright who stole the girl from Humbert in Lolita
I know, I know, way off topic. This belongs in the literature forum.
 
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(John Steel @ Jun. 02 2007,08:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Powerlifters rarely have large biceps in relation to other muscles. Those who do have large biceps have them because they do specific exercises for the biceps. Powerlifters rarely have large deltoids in relation to other muscles. Those who do have large deltoids have them because they do specific exercises for the deltoids, as opposed to the standard press, press and press some more protocol used by the majority of powerlifters. All of this pressing typically targets only the anterior (frontal) deltoid and assists on the bench. Most powerlifters do have large triceps. Again, this is because they do specific exercises for the triceps to get the bench up. If you look around any gym, you will see guys with large arms and nothing else. Marky Mark (Walberg) comes to mind. The guy has decent arms for someone who looks otherwise like he spends more time at the track than he does at the gym. This is due to muscle specificity. You must target the biceps and the triceps directly, in a full range of motion, if you want them to grow. The biggest problem with this idea is that most people don't use enough weight when they target arms or when they perform other isolated movements. The reason that compounds are so effective is that they require you to tighten and use everything just to perform the lift and you use heavy weights. Apply this to your arm training as well. Use as much weight as you can possibly muster, use the body as a whole, use a full range of motion on exercises that allow you to really target the bis and tris and eat a lot. If you do these things, you will grow big guns. If you need further evidence of the importance of muscular specificity, think about the widely known fact that you can build up to a big bench and still be Johnny Bravo if you don't target the legs as well. I know all of this looks crazy to some of you, but don't flame me about it, just look at the real world. Peace.</div>
I am not sure going extremely heavey on arm isos is the best idea for most, as the arms are relatively small muscles and are use in all other upper body movements. Why tire them out for your bigger compound movements.

Most beginners and intermediate lifters will be overtraining if they go heavy on compounds and then heavey on isos. IMO for natural guys, only advanced HST lifters need isos, and even then it should be limited.
 
Yeah, I don't know what gym Mr. Steel goes to, but at our local, the PL's have huge arms and do not do iso's, for the most part. He is correct about the delts however; some seem to lack the posterior growth.
I see nothing wrong with heavy arm work, just too much volume. They overreach faster than the big stuff. And a lot of it seems to be individual-dependent for some.
 
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(John Steel @ Jun. 02 2007,08:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Powerlifters rarely have large biceps in relation to other muscles.  Those who do have large biceps have them because they do specific exercises for the biceps.  Powerlifters rarely have large deltoids in relation to other muscles.  Those who do have large deltoids have them because they do specific exercises for the deltoids, as opposed to the standard press, press and press some more protocol used by the majority of powerlifters.  All of this pressing typically targets only the anterior (frontal) deltoid and assists on the bench.  Most powerlifters do have large triceps.  Again, this is because they do specific exercises for the triceps to get the bench up.  If you look around any gym, you will see guys with large arms and nothing else.  Marky Mark (Walberg) comes to mind.  The guy has decent arms for someone who looks otherwise like he spends more time at the track than he does at the gym.  This is due to muscle specificity.  You must target the biceps and the triceps directly, in a full range of motion, if you want them to grow.  The biggest problem with this idea is that most people don't use enough weight when they target arms or when they perform other isolated movements.  The reason that compounds are so effective is that they require you to tighten and use everything just to perform the lift and you use heavy weights.  Apply this to your arm training as well.  Use as much weight as you can possibly muster, use the body as a whole, use a full range of motion on exercises that allow you to really target the bis and tris and eat a lot.  If you do these things, you will grow big guns.  If you need further evidence of the importance of muscular specificity, think about the widely known fact that you can build up to a big bench and still be Johnny Bravo if you don't target the legs as well.  I know all of this looks crazy to some of you, but don't flame me about it, just look at the real world.  Peace.</div>
I agree with all of this...seriously.  He's right about alot here.  Powerlifters typically have huge triceps, chest and thighs and traps.  Because they bench, squat and deadlift.  Some work the delts, lats and biceps to assist in the lifts, but not necessarily.
And the SAID principle is very real.  I don't buy for a second all that &quot;squatting makes your arms big&quot; crap.  I have know too many guys who just train chest and arms and have huge chest and arms and sucky lats, legs, etc.
 
Totentanz :
&quot;Okay, so we should do back-swinging barbell curls then, right? Use the whole body to do the curl.&quot;

I wrote, &quot;... use the body as a whole, use a full range of motion on exercises that allow you to really target the bis and tris...&quot;  Do cheat curls allow you to target the bis and tris?  No.

jwbond :
&quot;I am not sure going extremely heavey on arm isos is the best idea for most, as the arms are relatively small muscles and are use in all other upper body movements. Why tire them out for your bigger compound movements.&quot;

I wrote, &quot;Use as much weight as you can possibly muster, use the body as a whole...&quot;  Which means don't just flail around with the 5s.  Put some focus into it just like you do on the big stuff.  Also, I didn't say anything about working arms before chest, etcetera.

&quot;Most beginners and intermediate lifters will be overtraining if they go heavy on compounds and then heavey on isos. IMO for natural guys, only advanced HST lifters need isos, and even then it should be limited.&quot;

I wrote, &quot;You must target the biceps and the triceps directly, in a full range of motion, if you want them to grow.&quot;  I didn't say anything about compounds plus isos.  The volume remains the same, you just choose exercises that target the bis and tris better than the short ROM compounds do.

quadancer :
&quot;Yeah, I don't know what gym Mr. Steel goes to, but at our local, the PL's have huge arms and do not do iso's, for the most part. He is correct about the delts however; some seem to lack the posterior growth.
I see nothing wrong with heavy arm work, just too much volume. They overreach faster than the big stuff. And a lot of it seems to be individual-dependent for some.&quot;

I wrote, &quot;Powerlifters rarely have large biceps in relation to other muscles.&quot;  And, &quot;Most powerlifters do have large triceps.&quot;  The triceps make up roughly 2/3 of the upper arm and probably more on those powerlifters who don't work the bis directly.  So yes, they do have large arms, but they do not have large biceps unless they do some targeted work on them.  Again, the volume remains the same, you just choose exercises that target the bis and tris better than the short ROM compounds do.

scientific muscle:
&quot;I agree with all of this...seriously. He's right about alot here. Powerlifters typically have huge triceps, chest and thighs and traps. Because they bench, squat and deadlift. Some work the delts, lats and biceps to assist in the lifts, but not necessarily.
And the SAID principle is very real. I don't buy for a second all that &quot;squatting makes your arms big&quot; crap. I have know too many guys who just train chest and arms and have huge chest and arms and sucky lats, legs, etc.&quot;

Thanks, sci.  In the HST Articles section, Bryan Haycock mentions muscle specificity as a key component to the program as well as that compounds should form the base of your routine.  So one might perform the big three lifts and then do some laterals for the delts, some preacher curls for the bis, and so on.  The main point is that rows won't build the huge biceps that the original poster wants--curls will.  And the more isolated (maybe targeted is a better word) the curl is, the better--as long as you aren't taking it easy with the puny weights.
 
I'm all for doing additional isos if you are lacking size in that particular muscle group. However, in my experiences so far, a lot of powerlifters I've dealt with/talked to/seen are former bodybuilders... And they usually have some decent biceps and shoulders. There are a lot of examples of each that you could come up with, so basically it becomes a generalization that only applies to some.

Anyawy, the point is a decent one - do the compounds, then add on isos where you need them. However, I don't know what the point was in saying &quot;you gotta go heavy on the curls bro&quot; since I think pretty much anyone here who does do curls does go heavy. That's sort of how HST works.
 
Morgoth the Dark Enemy wrote:
&quot;Define puny weight in the context of a small muscle like the biceps.&quot;

What I mean is that I just did some pec flies and my wife's comment was: &quot;I doubt most people do those with enough weight to turn red and be out of breath after one set.&quot; I will clarify by saying that isolation isn't even necessarily the correct term. My bad. Full range of motion is probably more to the point, whether achieved through isolation, a shift in leverage, etcetera.
For the biceps, I mean to take as much weight as you can on the incline dumbbell curl, for example, using a hammer grip, which for me is my strongest curl, and put some mustard on it. I mean to focus as much effort with whatever weight you use as you would on the bench or the squat. Focus, breathe, get tight--all that good stuff. As opposed to the people we've all seen in the gym doing the slow, concentrated, twist the wrist at the top, &quot;shaping&quot; BS with the ten pound dumbbells.

Totentanz wrote:
&quot;... a lot of powerlifters I've dealt with/talked to/seen are former bodybuilders... And they usually have some decent biceps and shoulders. There are a lot of examples of each that you could come up with, so basically it becomes a generalization that only applies to some.&quot;

They do indeed have decent biceps and shoulders. But they don't have the cartoonish triple peaks on their biceps that we see on most bodybuilders who work biceps as if it's some kind of religion. Yes, everyone is a little different. But in terms of the laws of science, we are all a lot more alike than some of us would like to be.

And:
&quot;However, I don't know what the point was in saying &quot;you gotta go heavy on the curls bro&quot; since I think pretty much anyone here who does do curls does go heavy. That's sort of how HST works.&quot;

Was that for me? 'Cause I didn't say that. But I will say this: HST isn't about going heavy at all. HST is about frequency of stimulation above all, with progression in load and intensity. I promise. For example, on curls with a 15RM of 100 lbs., you'd do 75x15R, 80x15R, 85x15R, 90x15R, 95x15R and end with your original 15RM of 100 lbs. By that time (two weeks of growth), 100 lbs. hopefully wouldn't even be your 15RM anymore. The same applies to your cycles of 10R and 5R. That's not about going heavy--not to imply that it's easy either. The cumulative stress would be substantial, but that's due to frequency, rather than load.

I hope this is helpful to someone.
 
Not to argue anything, but I always recommend a shortened ROM (at least not full extension) for any of us older lifters for obvious reasons. Took a long time to heal.

You're right about HST John. It's a great way to grow and heal at the same time in my book, despite the heavy poundages at the end of the mesocycles. Which is where we grow.
Or any day I'm pulling 100lbs. on my belt for chins.
 
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(John Steel @ Jun. 03 2007,21:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">They do indeed have decent biceps and shoulders.  But they don't have the cartoonish triple peaks on their biceps that we see on most bodybuilders who work biceps as if it's some kind of religion.  Yes, everyone is a little different.  But in terms of the laws of science, we are all a lot more alike than some of us would like to be.</div>
The bolded part has about jackshit to do with doing heavy arm isos, and everything to do with having world class genetics, using a number of drugs and synthol. PLers juice as well, but less, and they primarily stick to test instead of dabbling with intra-muscular HGH injections(to name one variable).

Larry Scott **** his pants doing heavy preacher curls and he had shitty biceps peak for all of his life. Coz that`s what genetics`ll do for you. Ahnold had a great peak not because he did a billion sets of curls, inverted curls, hammer curls, rectal stimulating curls and whatnot, he had a great peak because that was God`s gift to him.

To make my point clear, direct work for arms(and not only) certainly makes sense at some point. Beginners and intermediates probably aren`t at that point, and advanced trainees supposedly have enough brain to figure out they need to emphasize this or that muscle group.

I also think that going red in the face while lifting has about jackshit importance WRT results. Huffing, puffing, screaming and the likes are irrelevant and poor taste, IMHO. I`ve witnessed Olympic lifters training, their intensity was incredible, but they simply got in, did their set of incredbibly correct squats, and got out. Nothing of the hardcore gym goer bullcrap:Easy WEIGHT, EASY WEIGHT, YAAAAAA, ONE MORE etc.

As usual, all of the above is IMHO.
 
quadancer wrote:
&quot;Not to argue anything, but I always recommend a shortened ROM (at least not full extension) for any of us older lifters for obvious reasons. Took a long time to heal.&quot;

This is a good point for those who may not know. You are correct, and not just for older lifters, but for anyone who wants to keep their original joints for life. I wasn't advocating locking out or hyper extending any joint. Just to use a fuller ROM--than compounds will allow--on the biceps if you want to stimulate the biceps to grow.

Morgoth the Dark Enemy wrote:
&quot;Larry Scott **** his pants doing heavy preacher curls and he had shitty biceps peak for all of his life. Coz that`s what genetics`ll do for you.&quot;

Larry Scott had some of the biggest biceps around. This thread is about big biceps. You just proved my point.
The point I was making about peaks was that they are a result of overall size of the biceps. The shape (peaks) of the biceps is predetermined to some extent and we all know this.

Morgoth the Dark Enemy wrote:
&quot;To make my point clear, direct work for arms(and not only) certainly makes sense at some point.&quot;

This is my point. And it applies to all levels--not just the advanced.

Morgoth the Dark Enemy wrote:
&quot;I also think that going red in the face while lifting has about jackshit importance WRT results. Huffing, puffing, screaming and the likes are irrelevant and poor taste, IMHO. I`ve witnessed Olympic lifters training, their intensity was incredible, but they simply got in, did their set of incredbibly correct squats, and got out. Nothing of the hardcore gym goer bullcrap:Easy WEIGHT, EASY WEIGHT, YAAAAAA, ONE MORE etc.&quot;

Going red in the face is just an example of an outward display of intensity of effort. Huffing and puffing is called breathing. I said nothing about screaming. I said nothing about, &quot;Easy WEIGHT, EASY WEIGHT, YAAAAAA, ONE MORE etc.&quot; either.
The original topic was big biceps. It wasn't big arms. It wasn't any of this other BS. Just big biceps. And my reply remains the same. If you want big biceps, compounds ain't gonna cut it, bud. All the rows in the world won't make the most of your biceps development. The rest of this is just semantics for the sake of pointless argument. If you want big biceps--not arms, but biceps--you go curl in as full a range of motion as is safe for the elbow joint (never to lockout), you do it with as much weight as you can actually handle within the prescribed repetition range (rather than pussing around with what you think is a good weight) and you put the same level of concentration, focus and effort into it that you do when you hit the bench or the squat.
 
I don`t bench and squat, I use a bowflex and the Ab-Roller. But thanks for pointing me in the right direction for getting big biceps...bud. Now that I have your input and wealth of clearly knowledgeable assertions, I`ll probably bump DA GUNZ up from 11 inches to 12. Thanks, you`re a sweetheart.

As a sidenote, if you cannot understand why Larry Scott, or Arnold, or Ronnie, or whatever Pro stimulates your imagination has big biceps(hint, it has about zilch to do with curling like hell), this argument is pointless. And I absolutely know now that gymnasts do a lot of curls...coz they have like big biceps...or is it they have ripped arms that makes da biceps look big....wait....computing. Anyway, gleefully carry on, I`m not ready for chatting about the gunz so I`ll go play with my bowflex.
 
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(John Steel @ Jun. 04 2007,08:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you want big biceps--not arms, but biceps--you go curl in as full a range of motion as is safe for the elbow joint (never to lockout), you do it with as much weight as you can actually handle within the prescribed repetition range (rather than pussing around with what you think is a good weight) and you put the same level of concentration, focus and effort into it that you do when you hit the bench or the squat.</div>
Just me, but isos have never done jack for my biceps development.  I do them every once in awhile for fun.  What really gave my biceps a nice size &amp; shape was incorporating deads &amp; weighted chins on a regular basis. To suggest that isos are more beneficial than compound movements like deadlifting and weighted chins is a pretty bold statement. Just my 2 pence.
 
Like Shotzy, here's my 2 pence:

From my own experience, specific to bicep development, ISO's have their place primarily for shaping purposes. I get the best basis for size from compound movements, but out of habit, on Fridays I DESTROY my biceps (after my compounds) with ISO's and take the weekend off to heal. I like how I've grown hitting my bi's like this - but my reasons for getting to the gym in the first place may be really different than the next guy. I build my biceps so I can go heavier for my back primarily, and to stretch out my shirts secondarily.

Intense subject!
 
Morgoth the Dark Enemy wrote:
&quot;I don`t bench and squat, I use a bowflex and the Ab-Roller.&quot;

I rest my case. I don't know what your attitude problem is, son, but I'd suggest that you figure it out, rather than taking it out on others. How's that working for you so far? I am not your enemy. Insecure people like you don't even warrant much of my attention. You are your own enemy.

Morgoth the Dark Enemy wrote:
&quot;Now that I have your input and wealth of clearly knowledgeable assertions, I`ll probably bump DA GUNZ up from 11 inches to 12. Thanks, you`re a sweetheart.&quot;

When you grow up, you may understand the error of your ways, sweetheart. But I doubt it.

Morgoth the Dark Enemy wrote:
&quot;... this argument is pointless.&quot;

Yeah... This is a forum. Some people come here to offer helpful advice and to learn. Other people come here to argue. We call these other people trolls. Your purpose here is obvious from your chosen SN alone.

RUSS wrote:
&quot;In the context of what the original poster asked and the level of training inferred by his post I think it's obvious to everyone on this thread that some heavy compounds and big eating are the quickest and most efficient course from where he is to a place where perhaps some of the curling advice WOULD be prudent.&quot;

I agree, since from his stats, he needs overall weight gain more than he needs anything else. No offense intended.

RUSS wrote:
&quot;To say that PLers have small arms or delts is a clear indicator of mistaken identity.&quot;

Except that I never said that powerlifters had SMALL arms or delts.
I spoke of the RELATIVE size of MOST powerlifters' deltoids and biceps. In relation to their massive triceps, which they train regularly with heavy, direct triceps work, their deltoids and biceps development is USUALLY lacking. That's not to say that they have small deltoids or biceps by any means, but that they simply don't compare to other areas such as triceps. Whereas, MOST bodybuilders have better developed deltoids and biceps than MOST powerlifters due to fuller range of motion exercises IN ADDITION TO whatever mass-building compounds they may also employ.

OK. I have an idea. For any of you who wish to continue this as if it is an argument, go ahead and do your squats, deadlifts, flat benches and heck, even some shoulder presses and rows if you like. Then come back in 90 days and show me your massive biceps and deltoids. Good luck.

http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles.htm
Have a look here and tell me again that compounds will make the MOST of your deltoids or biceps development.
 
I'm beginning to like this guy. Gotta &quot;rate&quot; him, huh?
John, funny you should link that index page. I looked over all the articles and there's not one on arms, or biceps, or triceps...I even tried the &quot;things you should know&quot; link, but it wouldn't load. Anyway, you just proved the PL point: many of those guys have huge arms....
I can't really say yet; just quit iso's a while back and was doing fine until my workload became overload and I'm working out only 1-2x a week...my arms shrunk a lot. Now I'm cutting a bit and seem only to be losing muscle. Gawd, I hate this.
Maybe I need to start doing just iso's....(joke!)...
 
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