Sample HST cycle

ok cool, thanks sooo much for that russ you're my hero haha!

i might stick with the 30,30,20,10,10,5 setup, and see how i go (and if that's greater for strength gains, then that's great!) one thing confuses me though, i'd like to ask anyone who has done a "vanilla" cycle (ie 1x15, 2x10, 3x5), have you been able to increase every load on the NEXT cycle??? i just seems that if the 30,30,20,10,10,5 setup works well for gaining strength, but the more-or-less constant volume approach doesn't raise the RMs, have the "vanilla" people continued to gain after their cycle despite not gaining strength (btw i'm NOT saying that you don't gain strength on 1x15, 2x10, 3x5, but i'm just seeing if anyone has had this situation)

also, for the NEXT cycle, charles ridgely (on http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ridgely6.htm) states that "A common area of concern is whether or not the beginning weights in the 15s rep-range of the cycle are actually beneficial. Simply, when taken in view of your SD, the weights in the 15s are indeed beneficial [1-3].
Broadly speaking, a good measure of the effectiveness of your cycle is the difference between your final, 5RM weight and your beginning weight in the 15s.
The larger the difference, the more effective your cycle will be. You can improve the effectiveness of your cycle by either increasing your 5RM weight or decreasing your beginning weight in the 15s. Although the latter seems like the easier of the two options, you may still be wondering: How low is too low? "

anyway, i'm wondering about that because brian states in the faq that for your next cycle, just add 5-10 pounds to all your lifts. if this were seen in light of ridgely's words, the range would be EXACTLY the same would it not? unless you keep the FIRST weight you use the same, and add weight onto every other lift.
i guess two main things i'm trying to determine here is:

1) Why would the range between the first weight and the last weight in the cycle that you use be the main factor as to an effective cycle? is it because the muscles are increasingly becoming more loaded as in a heavier and heavier load is imposed on them?
and

2) If you just added 5-10 pounds onto every lift, the range wouldn't increase (eg it would stay the same difference between low and high numbers, eg the range 50-100 has the same difference as 100-150), but the range would be HIGHER in scale in terms of what it was last time. for example, 100-200 is a higher range than 75-150. so then is THIS what will elicit further hypertrophy after the first cycle, this difference from of a higher RELATIVE range???

i'm sorry this is soooo long and tedious but it's something i hope that can be understood and answered haha, i think i confused myself i think way too much, i guess i'm just thinking aheeead to the next cycle
ok thanks guys

Simon
 
I think sci cycle is a great idea. Because lets say i do 25 reps. So on the 5's i need to do 5 sets. Which means its impossible to finnish the training in 80-90 minuts.
But i can`t understand why skipping the 15'S?
 
whoa sci,whats made you change your mind about max-stim i remember a couple of wks ago you said

" Max-stim is like doing ONE huge set with a breif rest between each rep. It allows awesome loading and still get alot of reps in....exhausting though.
I believe it is probably the single best way to train for absolute strength/size."
have you got some studies saying different i would like to see them if you have cheers.

BTW i have always dropped my volume exept when i started i just did the vanilla workout which is possible to do but for ie now i do
3x15s
3x10s
4x5s
3x5s
5x3s
3x3s
when i get down to the 3x5s i do a drop set plus if you count the warm up set then the volume could be constant but this way i get more strength+load IMO anyway.
 
Simon, the most important thing you can do each cycle is increase the top loads you are using. If you aren't putting more weight on the bar, chances are you aren't growing either.

If after SD you are able to start with a light weight and trigger a growth response then your cycle can be longer. It may be that after a few cycles your top loads have gone up a fair bit but you are still able to start each cycle with the same loads so the difference between start and finish is increasing.

However, as you get stronger it is unlikely that a normal SD of 7-14 days will decondition you enough for the same light starting loads to do much for growth, so you end up having to increase those too. It's not really a problem though. Just keep your top loads increasing each cycle and you will make good progress.

If you work with percentages of your 1RM loads you will ensure that your starting and ending loads are as far apart as makes sense. If you start with 50% of your 1RM and work up to 90% (or beyond) you should have a productive cycle.

Let's say right now your 1RM is 100lbs for a particular exercise. Start your 15s at 50lbs and work up to 90lbs for your 5RM – a 40lbs spread. When your 1RM is 200lbs you would start at 100lbs and work up to 180lbs for your 5RM – an 80lbs spread. Same percentages, bigger spread. Get it?
 
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(faz @ May 23 2007,04:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">whoa sci,whats made you change your mind about max-stim i remember a couple of wks ago you said

&quot; Max-stim is like doing ONE huge set with a breif rest between each rep.  It allows awesome loading and still get alot of reps in....exhausting though.
I believe it is probably the single best way to train for absolute strength/size.&quot;
have you got some studies saying different i would like to see them if you have cheers.

BTW i have always dropped my volume exept when i started i just did the vanilla workout which is possible to do but for ie now i do
3x15s
3x10s
4x5s
3x5s
5x3s
3x3s
when i get down to the 3x5s i do a drop set plus if you count the warm up set then the volume could be constant but this way i get more strength+load IMO anyway.</div>
I still support max-stim. I just question the idea of keeping volume constant throughout the entire cycle. At least for maximizing progressive loading, doing higher volume in the beginning and dropping volume as the loads get higher is the way to go imo. I have some studies about periodized training being superior. But to be honest there aren't alot of studies and most of them looked at strength,not hypertrophy. I will post some later.
 
ok mate gotcha
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but could you not lower the volume in max-stim ie start of doing your 10rm for 30 reps and end up doing your 3rm for 10 reps
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(faz @ May 24 2007,03:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">ok mate gotcha
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but could you not lower the volume in max-stim ie start of doing your 10rm for 30 reps and end up doing your 3rm for 10 reps
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That is exactly what I would propose.
 
<div>
(scientific muscle @ May 10 2007,16:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
The embarrassing part is that Bryan has suggested this from the beginning!!!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I suggest you do 2 sets per exercise during the 15s. Then do 2 sets during the first week of 10s, and 1 set during the second week of 10s. Then do 2 sets during the first week of 5s, and finish doing one set (after warm ups of course) during the last week of 5s. Always warm up first regardless of how many work sets you are doing. </div>

Week1 2x15 =30 reps
Week2 2x15 =30 reps
Week3 2x10 =20 reps
Week4 1x10 =10 reps
Week5 2x5 =10 reps
Week6 1x5 =5 reps

So you have dual-factor theory...volume slowly reduced while intensity slowly increases. I know that is not WHY he did it, but it still fit the dual-factor model PERFECTLY.

And this ALL directly from the HST FAQ which has been around for years!</div>
Well, after 1.5 years of Madcow 5x5, I'm giving this a shot. Couple months ago, I was trying out 5x8 as a change-up from 5x5. At first it seemed things were going well, even though I was completely unused to working with higher than 5-rep sets. But after about 6 weeks, I crashed and burned out. I think as the weights went up and the volume increased on exercises like squats, deads, bench and floor rows it just became too much for me to handle. The first sign of trouble was when I began losing strength in the dealift. Then I became seriously fatigued and felt like hanging up the weights for good. After a little more than a week of no lifting at all, I found this thread--the volume scheme discussed here sounds good.

I am sticking with the Madcow 5x5 layout and exercises, but using HST's SD, increasing loads, and decreasing volumes. Just finished the 15s, and am starting the 10s today. Things seem to be going well--my performance actually improved during the 15s and I was able to put up all my 15RM weights for 15 reps as scheduled. I know for a fact that 2 weeks ago there was no way that I was strong enough to lift my calculated 15RM weights for 15 reps. I hope this trend will continue through the 10s and into the 5s.
 
oh ok yeah thanks for that Lol!!! so if i understand correctly, mainly increasing JUST the 5RM is the goal? is that right, because if say you increased all the weights, the range would be the same like i said, but unless the 5RM goes up more rapidly than the 15RM, cos like you said:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Let's say right now your 1RM is 100lbs for a particular exercise. Start your 15s at 50lbs and work up to 90lbs for your 5RM – a 40lbs spread. When your 1RM is 200lbs you would start at 100lbs and work up to 180lbs for your 5RM – an 80lbs spread. Same percentages, bigger spread. Get it? </div>

but then again, who's to say that the range WILL increase? because you DO eventually need to increase the starting weights, but yeah.

ok i'm gonna post up my cycle for all to see and tell me what you think ;) (the values are in KILOGRAMS, not pounds)

Incline Bench Press RMs
15s 27.5 27.5 30 30 32.5 32.5
10s 35 37.5 40 42.5 45 47.5
5s 45 47.5 50 50 53 56

Lat Pulldown RMs
15s 25 27.5 30 30 33.5 33.5
10s 36 36 38.5 38.5 42 42
5s 40 42.5 45 45 47.5 50

Back Squat RMs
15s 40 43 47 51 55 55
10s 58.5 58.5 62.5 62.5 67.5 67.5
5s 63.5 67.5 72 72 76 80

Military Press RMs
15s 12.5 12.5 15 15 17.5 17.5
10s 19.5 19.5 21 21 23.5 23.5
5s 22 24.5 26 26 28 30

BB Curl RMs
15s 13.5 13.5 15 15 17 17
10s 18.5 18.5 20 20 22 22
5s 20 22 23.5 23.5 25 27

Tricep Pushdowns RMs
15s 10.5 10.5 12.5 12.5 15 15
10s 12.5 15 16 16 17.5 17.5
5s 18.5 18.5 19.5 19.5 21 21


so yeah, i had to sort of do it in a certain way cos of the lower weights (i'm a little weak in some areas haha), but man that took a lot of calculating haha!
but yeah, i did a little zigzagging, i thought it was good to TRY and increase the weights on every workout in the 5s, so then when i do my post 5s (can't do negatives), i can spend a while on my RM, although it's not THAT big a deal that i didn't repeat my 5RM in the 5s, but i tried to make it so that the last workout of the 5s was the only one with 5RM.
okay, maybe just ignore what i said there, it's too confusing hahaha!

but yeah! oh and... i STILL don't know how many sets i should do throughout the cycle... can anyone advise me on what's the best amount of volume for someone's FIRST HST cycle??? and i KNOW it sorta comes a bit down to current conditioning, but yeah.
i still DON'T KNOW!!!

so yeah, thanks guys for all the help so far, and i hope you can advise me on my planned cycle!
cheers
Simon
 
that looks
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IMO rather than this i shall use squat as an eg.
5s 63.5 67.5 72 72 76 80
i would do this
5s 63.5 63.5 76 76 80 80
that way you get bigger increments but its up to you.

also start of doing
1 set 15s
2 sets 10s
3 sets 5s
and see how it goes if you need less or more ajust it next cycle.good luck
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oh ok thanks heaps for your comments!
but i thought that the increments shouldn't be TOOOO big cos, well i dunno WHY, i just thought they should be big, but not too big.
i followed ridgely's recommendation to use 5% of the 5RM for EVERY increment for that exercise. for example, for squat, i did 80 x .05 = 4 kg , so i based every increment on that (give or take a bit).
i'm curious, why do you think i should get that big an increment, based on that reasoning i could even go: 5s 63.5 63.5 63.5 80 80 80
or even do the first weight in the 15s the whole way until half the cycle, then use my 5RM.
hehe sorry, i'm not criticising, i really appreciate your views i would just like to know the reasoning behind it hey!
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and is
1 set 15s
2 sets 10s
3 sets 5s
the best way to start a first cycle you think??? cool yeah, i'm leaning a bit towards that, i just sort of believe in keeping total volume FAIRLY constant for hypertrophy training, but yeah, i do understand the benefits of periodisation- 30,30,20,10,10,5 (although i'm not sure it's directed at hypertrophy training hey...
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i just wanna get this right hey, so i appreciate everyone's comments thanks heaps!!!

Simon
 
I think (correct me if I'm wrong Faz) that Faz was thinking in pounds whereas your figures are in kgs. Around a 10lb increment is fine for most folks for squats and deads etc. Smaller lifts could use 5lb increments. I reckon a 5% increment (whatever that turns out to be in terms of actual weight) is about right. So you would use 75%, 80%, 85%, 90%, 95%, 100% of your RM for that mesocycle.

Only other thing that I noticed from your figures (and it really is just a small point) is that all your weights seem to start at around 50% of your 5RM rather than 50% of your 1RM. It's no big deal and right now is probably a good thing as the greater the total progression over your cycle the better. If you feel a little sore from the workout that's absolutely fine as it means that your SD will have done its job.

However, as you get more conditioned over time you will probably have to start at around 55% of your 5RM (which is just about the same as 50% of your 1RM) to get much out of your first few workouts.
 
AAAAH ok yeah, now i get it haha.
i actually JUST used 5% of my 5RM for every increment rather than 75%, 80%, 85%, 90%, 95%, 100% of my RM for that mesocycle. should i have done it that way instead?

also, i never realised that my starting weight should have been 50% of my 1RM, i've never read that, should i change it to that? because if i start on 50% of my 5RM, my weight will will lower at the start than if i started with 50% of my 1RM. For example, if my 5RM was 56kg for an exercise, 50% of that is 23 kg starting weight (at the start of my 15s). However, if i used 50% of my 1RM as my starting weight, which we'll say my 1RM is 70kg, 50% of that is 35kg.
SO! if i started with 50% of my 5RM in my first whole cycle, the range would be 23kg to 56kg. in the NEXT cycle (my second), if i started with 50% of my 1RM, the range would be 35kg to roughly 56kg or higher due to increased weights.
THEREFORE, the range gets smaller from one cycle to the next. this is bad is it not? so should i start with 50% of my 1RM, and then in the next cycle use 50% of my 5RM???

or maybe you didn't mean that at all hey, maybe you were just saying to increase my STARTING weights so it would be more productive at the staaaart of my cycle... i don't know haha.

thanks again
 
sorry mate didnt notice it was kilos, personaly i start of at 80% of my 15rm,and i only use three increments &quot;each one twice&quot; it takes out a lot of zigzagging although thats not a prob.
also small increments are better for strength while larger increments are better for hypertrophy
72 72 76 76 80 80 i would have done it more like this.
 
oh ok yeah thanks for that faz!!!
i actually purposely put zigzagging in mine just so that there IS a little 'rest' period, is that bad? haha i don't THINK i would 'burn out', so i might do it your way with 72 72 76 76 80 80
thanks
 
and also, i wanna ask everyone here...
should i start off vanilla??? ie 1x15, 2x10, 3x5
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?? like i NEED a definitive answer here haha
 
and also, i wanna ask everyone here...
should i start off vanilla??? ie 1x15, 2x10, 3x5
rock.gif
?? like i NEED a definitive answer here haha
thanks!!!
 
You could run that forever; except that after so many cycles, the body seems to quit growing and you'll run closer to your genetic limits. So many guys here seem to taper off the gains and there are so many reasons, but something has to change or you'll simply stall out. I stalled at or after my 7th cycle. I followed up with a 5x5 and that worked.
As for starting weights, I think more experienced lifters won't get a lot of good out of 50%...like Faz, I need to start heavy, work heavy, and end up heavy in comparison, but I simply add 10 lbs. to everything for each cycle and go from there.
Unless I missed something, by Ridgely's definition, we could all just start with a 10lb. weight and &quot;progress&quot; from there. Even for noobs, there is a point where the weight is so light you're just wasting your time, neural conditioning, and whey powder.
 
heyhey guys, yeah i've decided to do 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 for my first cycle.
atm i'm at the end of my first week of 10s right, and for bb curls, on the last workout i did my first set ok and got 10 reps, but second set i reached 8 reps and i knew that i wouldn't be able to continue, so i stopped there and waited 30 seconds to complete the last 2 reps.
Is that okay to do? i guess it could be considered clustering hey..
but maybe... hmmm... OR should i rest longer between sets to get the reps??? somehow i don't think that'll be the better option... i may be restin for awhile haha. atm, i'm supersetting exercises, after the second exercise i rest about 1 to 1 and 1/2 minutes before i do the first exercise again.

but yeah, i feel that that's ('failing'- slowing reps that is) gonna happen for some of my other exercises as well as i keep increasing the weights, like possibly having to fail before 10 reps on the second set.

is this ok? i'm sure it is, but yeah, the aim isn't fatigue i guess so yes!

thanks!

Simon
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Is that okay to do? i guess it could be considered clustering hey..</div>

That is the exact definition of clustering and YES it is okay.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">but maybe... hmmm... OR should i rest longer between sets to get the reps???</div>

Give it a shot, but as you and I both seem to agree about supersetting. I am a big fan of short breaks unless I am deadlifting.
 
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