Shoulders - Ditching the 5's?

R

Renky

Member
I have been considering ditching the 5's for shoulders and maybe chest. Size wise, I feel I have pretty much reached my goal with both these muscle groups. My main reason for ditching the 5's for these muscle groups is to avoid flogged out shoulders in the years to come. My shoulders are still in very good shape and I do not have any issues with them, but I have read too many stories where people have developed shoulder problems.

Before HST, I was using MAX OT and was lifting mega heavy all the time. Just wonder if it is time to start going a bit easier? I am wondering if cycles of 12 and 8 would be any better for me? Being that I have lifted heavy most of my training life, going lighter is rather foreign to me.

I tend to always stick with compound natural movements also.

What do you guys think? Thanks!

PS - I recently saw Arnold say in an interview that he no longer bench presses due to shoulder issues. It sounds like the same would go for Frank Zane...
 
Yes, skip 5s if you feel it helps. 12s and 8s as rep ranges are perfectly fine. I also quit flat benching totally due to shoulders...but I can still do Dips and Incline Bench, as long I restrict the range of motion, (don't lower the bar beyond arms parallel to floor for benching and don't go too low for dips either...bad for shoulder joint.)
 
I seem to be ok with benching. I do 1-arm dumbbells for benching and have found a range of movement that works well. Thanks for the tip on not going past arms being parallel. I have always gone right down. Time to stop this perhaps...

Eventually, I wonder if getting a home gym machine might be worth the out lay? I have used machines in gyms before and always liked the safety that came with their use.
 
Dumbells are generally friendlier than a barbell, but yeah, if you can pause your arms at parallel, you'll likely save your shoulders from long-term damage. Basically there is no need to let your elbows go behind your body when benching, as this puts the shoulder in a potentially dangerous position
Machines can be great, but some of them have drawbacks. Generally you'll be fine with dumbell benching as long as you use good form.
 
Floor presses using an O-bar with regular 45cm plates are kinder on your shoulders than flat bench.
 
Thanks so much for your replies!

I have a home gym set up with very basic equipment. Saying that, I feel I have built a fairly decent physique with a set of dumbbells and barbell.

Anyway... With chest and shoulders, I tend to stick with dumbbells. I find these easier to use and I feel that I can flow in a more natural movement with exercise. I will reduce the range on bench for sure and maybe do my benches off the floor from now on, that way elbows are fixed by the floor level.

With shoulder presses, any warnings here? I press up at front and bring weights down to upper sternum level.

I am not able to do dips for triceps (wrist issues), so I supplement these with dumbbells and arms close by side in a pressing movement. Will need to reduce range like bench so as to not strain the shoulders.

Going 8's and 12's will be very weird for me. How have you guys found going lighter?

Thanks.
 
If you are concerned about joint health then do a couple of regular HST cycles before abandoning 5s. 15s definitely help my joints. Most of us probably don't do them enough, myself included, because we're always so eager to increase the load on the bar. Over the long-term though, I think it is wiser not to miss them out. Not only do 15s reduce the load on your joints but they allow you to work on your form in a way that heavier loads do not. There's also the potential lactic acid joint-health benefits to be had.


You can always try reducing your top loads in smaller increments; aiming for your 6RM instead of your 5RM and not extending the heavy end of a cycle would be worth a try. I see no need to drop to 8s right away.
 
I always do at least one week of 15's even though I dislike doing them. I also never go below 6 reps or do negs for joint reasons for all body parts except for shoulders which I stick to 10-15 reps because of a slight right shoulder impingement. Interestingly, my shoulders have now become my best body part aesthetically. For chest, I stick to BB inclines because of the same shoulder problem but can go down to 6 reps with no problems. I follow up with 1 set each of high rep, deep and slow bodyweight dips and push ups (on raised bars). Seems to work great for me.

As for Max OT and similar type programs, I did all that stuff 50 years ago and am paying the price now.
 
So you guys tweak the rep ranges a bit... I still worry about shoulders and with military presses being the standard exercise I use, going heavy feels too much on the joints at times. I guess I need to have a play and see what works.

With chin-ups today, I reached a point where I need to stop these for a while due to some serious tendon strain in where the pec and shoulder joins. The shoulder is not sore, just where the pectoral muscle ties in. Does this make sense?

Later in the year, I will be away from home and unable to train for 3 weeks. I may get the occasional work out in during this time, but I am not counting on it. Today I was thinking that this time off may be very good in the long run. Perhaps this time off will be like a rest and reset for me...
 
Sure am! 9 days every cycle after the 2 weeks of 5 Rep Maxes.

My comment about the 3 weeks off doing good for me was more along the lines of my muscles and joints all getting a decent break. I think I will re-start the cycles at slightly lower weights and get into some better training habits while introducing safer lifting techniques. To be honest, I have by-passed the 15's for a while now and I must admit that I do not warm up as well as I probably should.
 
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For me, shoulders (and I'm talking delts here, not traps or 'breadth' as viewed from the profile) are about as awesome as a muscle group gets. Take a Dwight Howard, Sergio Olivia, one of Arnold's single bicep from the back (twist at the hip etc).

Shoulders are where it's at.


Chest ... ? Eh, a bit meh for me. It makes delts and arms look too small for my $$.
 
Actually, warm up, like stretching, can be over rated as necessary before HST type exercise. It really is more dependent on what time of day you work out.
 
Old and Grey said:
Actually, warm up, like stretching, can be over rated as necessary before HST type exercise. It really is more dependent on what time of day you work out.
Click to expand...
True, except in my case, my shoulder joints are the problem: they need plenty of warming up before I can perform any work sets using my delts and rotator cuff without discomfort. I never had this issue when I was younger.

@Renky: do you get the same feeling of strain/discomfort when performing pull-ups instead of chins? If not, switch to pull-ups for a few cycles.
 
Alex - Agreed... Arnie was the man with the delts (and arms, and calves and ....) He sure had good genetics, that is for sure.

LOL - You might be right... Maybe I need to try some other movements here? I will work more on warming up. It is hard to spend the time as I am a more of a "get in and get it done" kind of guy.

On another note... I think I really need to stop training chest so much. I know I have touched on this before, but tonight my wife informed me that in her opinion I am getting WAY to big across the upper body. She said I am looking like someone has stuck on clay across my back and chest. I thought I had really grown a lot the past few months, but I guess I have grown a heap more than I thought. So, I think I need to ease up on chest. I am thinking I need to just do a little more on shoulders (not too much) and then just work hard on bringing up my arms. It looks like my genetics are in my chest, shoulders and calves. My arms are lacking and my quads are average. With my quads, I am not so fussed. I do squats and keep working up the weight ranges, but they aren't booming like chest and shoulders and that is ok with me.

Here is what I am thinking, please let me know if this is good or bad;

Chest - Step training down to once or twice a week and use lighter weight. Probably not push to increase the weight so much.
Shoulders - Work on better warming up, better form and working them 3X a week with maybe 8 and 12 rep ranges after I finish this 5. Or maybe go with 15's again, 10's and 5' without the two weeks of 5 rep maxes.
Arms -Absolutely hammer biceps and triceps with a focus on around 5o - 60 reps per workout consisting of chin-ups, barbell curls and alternate dumbbell curls.
Calves - Keep training as usual.
Quads - Keep training as usual.

Obviously arms are the focus point of my training until I get things in balance. I know it may be a little hard to understand what I am referring to with the "imbalance" with my physique, but my arms (measuring at 15-1/2" cold and un-flexed- flexed they measure 17-1/2") are lacking a lot when you take in my chest girth (measuring at 50"). Since last time I brought this up, my chest (and back) have grown that much more because I have continued to work them. As a rough guess, I think my arms need to come up another inch to get the balance. I just looked at an old post and discovered that my chest has grown 4" since September 2012. My arms have grown 1/2". Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think that with a chest measurement of 50", my arms should be somewhere around 16-1/2" to 17" un-flexed.

While Arnold is my favorite bodybuilder of all time, I always appreciate the physique that Frank Zane had. I would never say that I could equal Frank's physique, but I think his was more of the kind that people like you and I could maybe have a chance at getting close to, if this makes sense...

Anyway, I would welcome some feedback and thank you for your time.
 
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If you're not juicing then this BB potential calculator by Casey Butt will be a good point of reference:

http://www.weightrainer.net/maximum_bodypred.html

You'll notice that you have a chest the size of Steve Reeves at his best, which is darned impressive, but you'll need to add almost an inch to your upper-arm measurement (when flexed) to match his considerable guns. I'm of the impression that Mr Reeves was at around 10% bf for these measurements. Where are you right now?
 
I know this is probably said a lot, but I don't juice. I have never even taken any of the stuff. Must admit, I have been tempted, but never did try it. I take Tribulus, but that is all natural...

I just used the calculator and below is my drug free potential (thanks by the way) -



<tbody>
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] Chest: [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] 50.7 in [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] Biceps: [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] 17.9 in [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] Forearms: [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] 14.1 in [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] Neck: [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] 17.7 in [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] Thighs: [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] 28.5 in [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] Calves: [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] 18.8 in [/TD]

</tbody>


<tbody>
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]

</tbody>
Looks like I have maxed out on chest size already and arms have a ways to go. I do understand that back adds to the chest size, but to be honest, I have not trained back except for one-arm reverse rows or chin-ups (where I am targeting biceps in both exercises). This calculator shows me the imbalance even more. Arms need more work...

I am roughly estimating that I am at about 16% body fat. I was planning to lean out a bit the next cycle, but if I need to bring up arms I probably should hold off a little.

Thanks.
 
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Renky, I presume you understand that the "potential" biceps number is flexed. While you only gave two measurements, chest and arms, I don't see where the imbalance is in your actual numbers other than measuring in fractions of an inch. Am I misunderstanding something?
 
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