uproductive to do ss-cardio?

B

bobpit

New Member
I had a thought and I would like some more knowledgeable people with stronger theoretical background to correct me on this.

Facts (please correct me if these are wrong):
1) Tabata and HIIT cardio. They burn carbs DURING the exercise. But raise the metabolism and you burn much fat AFTER the exercise.

2) Heavy lifting. It burns carbs DURING the exercise. But raises the metabolism and you burn much fat AFTER the exercise. It also tells the body that the muscles are necessary to complete a difficult task. So the body preserves or builds more muscle.

3) 30-60 minutes SS-cardio is the most efficient way to burn fat DURING the exercise. It does not help you burn fat AFTER the exercise. We know that it is not good for the muscles.


So I am thinking. Could it be that whenever we exercise, we signal the body what kind of nutrients (carbs, fat, protein) we need the most? So the body will alter the metabolism. During rest it will try to store the needed nutrient and it will prefer to burn the others?

Let’s see how this would apply to the 3 previous cases:
1) Tabata and HIIT cardio. They signal the body that CARBS are needed the most. So the body will alter the metabolism. During rest it will try to store carbs and it will prefer to burn fat. (In this case I am not sure what happens with protein. Are Tabata and HIIT dangerous for the muscles? Or the high intensity tells the body to keep the muscles?)

2) Heavy lifting. It signals the body that CARBS and PROTEIN are needed the most. So the body will alter the metabolism. During rest it will try to store protein and carbs and it will prefer to burn fat.

3) 30-60 minutes SS-cardio. It signals the body that FAT is needed the most. So the body will alter the metabolism. During rest it will try to store fat and it will prefer to burn carbs and protein.


So can we conclude that if we want to build muscle and make our body burn more fat, we should lift weights, do HIIT or Tabata cardio and NEVER do SS-cardio.
 
This isn't really how the body works.

Uh... let me try to explain this somehow.
Regardless of which cardio you do, your body will just put the fat you burned right back on later in that same day, unless you are on a calorie deficit. Your body is always "breaking down" and "reforming" it's fat all the time.. The whole point of cardio is to expend calories, that way your body is breaking down more fat than it is making. This requires, of course, a calorie deficit.... which, again, is the point of the cardio - to create a deficit.
 
Yes. And a good way to create deficit is by increasing the metabolism.

When cortisol is elevated, the body will prefer to burn muscle-protein. So it is not as simple as colorie deficit. I believe the body can be manipulated into selecting to burn fats over proteins or carbs, during rest time.

I was reading this article. I checked one of the references and seems valid.

The article (and the reference) claim that 3 days of weight lifting + 3 days of intense cardio will give better results in increasing muscle and burning fat, without dieting. The EAS-"body for life" system is based on this concept.

Anabolic Aerobics:
Part1: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter2.htm
part2: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter3.htm
 
That article is moronic.

Anyone who tries to elevate GH or IGF or whatever by doing certain types of training, cardio, etc, is stupid.

Whatever. Obviously you aren't looking for opinions with your posts, you just want someone to agree with what you are saying... but the idea that doing different types of cardio will somehow program your body into storing fat or burning fat, whatever, is laughable at best.

So... nevermind.
 
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(Totentanz @ Apr. 29 2007,00:35)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Whatever.  Obviously you aren't looking for opinions with your posts, you just want someone to agree with what you are saying</div>
Took you a while to figure that one out...the three threads started asking the same stupid thing should`ve been a giveaway
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How`s training going?
 
Totentanz

Thank you for reading the article and your feedback. You sound experienced and I appreciate your opinion. Even if you gave me scientific arguments for what you say, I would not be able to judge which of the contradicting researches is more valid, since I am not a doctor.

I admit that I like the idea and I am already experimenting with it. So in less than a month I will know from experience. Yes, I would have felt more comfortable if you agreed with the article and related idea. Although this could not change the result of my wo, now I will be more careful for “negative” signs.

Since I like to try new ideas, many times the guys at the gym or forums (including my friends who graduated from Gymnastics university) thought I was crazy. They also disapprove of me doing HST, free BB squats to parallel instead of doing Smith-squats etc.

2 years ago I wanted to cut by doing regular split weight lifting, some HIIT and diet. People again thought I was crazy. I went from 85kgr to 76kgr. (Some of the progress is recorded here).
Before: http://mazema.com/gym/photogaleryFebruary2005.html
After: http://mazema.com/gym/photogaleryAugust2005.html

My best friend (very strong power lifter) still thinks it was accidental. Go figure.

Morgoth

This last week I experimented with some HIIT and Tabata. I also try to eat less on the off days. I experimented doing HIIT as a warm up before a weight lifting wo, which proved stupid. It made me tired.
 
Your 'accident' didn't happen in an instant. You've shown that you're not afraid to cut (like many of us who FREAK when our arms start to shrink...) and you know one thing that worked for you. Don't worry what the squirrels in the gym think of your workouts; just do what science and success proves correct.
I also see that you were just pondering, not lecturing. Taking advice from this website will steer you right. When someone posts something incorrect, it is immediately corrected. We protect the new guys that way. Not that I'm any authority or any prettier than you. And we are not pretty.
 
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(bobpit @ Apr. 28 2007,03:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">1) Tabata and HIIT cardio. They signal the body that CARBS are needed the most. So the body will alter the metabolism. During rest it will try to store carbs and it will prefer to burn fat. (In this case I am not sure what happens with protein. Are Tabata and HIIT dangerous for the muscles? Or the high intensity tells the body to keep the muscles?)</div>
You can still lose muscle with HIIT or Tabata, it's happened to others in the past. It can help when you are cutting though. I wouldn't recommend a lot of it though, since it will reduce your ability to use your legs in lifts like squats, deads, etc.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
2) Heavy lifting. It signals the body that CARBS and PROTEIN are needed the most. So the body will alter the metabolism. During rest it will try to store protein and carbs and it will prefer to burn fat.
</div>

This would seem to not be the case, since people lift weights and still get fat all the time. Many people who lift weights will be happy to gain a 50/50 ratio of fat to muscle, considering that to be pretty decent.
If this theory were true, you would see people gaining all muscle or mostly muscle while overeating and lifting heavy.
Lifting heavy weights increases protein synthesis, which will, hopefully, cause your body to build more protein than it breaks down, hopefully resulting in an increase in muscle mass. It might cause a slight increase in carb and water storage as well, but not necessarily.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
3) 30-60 minutes SS-cardio. It signals the body that FAT is needed the most. So the body will alter the metabolism. During rest it will try to store fat and it will prefer to burn carbs and protein.
</div>

Again, contrary to what we've seen in the real world. For years... no decades, people have been doing steady state cardio to cut up, especially bodybuilders. Seems to have been working.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
2 years ago I wanted to cut by doing regular split weight lifting, some HIIT and diet. People again thought I was crazy. I went from 85kgr to 76kgr. (Some of the progress is recorded here).
</div>

Not really sure why people would think that was crazy. You dieted, while lifting weights and doing some form of cardio. That's what pretty much everyone I know does when they try to cut up. Maybe the people you are associated with aren't too bright.

Like quad said, you probably shouldn't worry about what those people are saying or listen to them at all, because 99.997% of them are morons with no clue, and even if they have some muscle, they probably have no real idea how they even got to that point anyway.
 
Bobpit...by some of your statements its good to see you have came here to HST.

Its no big deal that you have gotten confused or mislead...but Tot said it correctly and you are way off base on that thinking.

6 months here on this forum and you will be up to speed my friend!
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Thank you guys

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(Totentanz @ Apr. 29 2007,19:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">you probably shouldn't worry about what those people are saying or listen to them at all, because 99.997% of them are morons with no clue</div>

When I try something new I read on the net, which is contrary to what people around me do, it is always a risk.  Maybe I apply it wrong.  Or maybe the idea is wrong.  And when I fail, it is difficult to pinpoint the problem.  The standard answers I get from forums are : &quot;Maybe it is your diet, your sleeping etc, etc&quot;.  Which may also be true in the real world I live.

I have a good orthopedics doctor, he specializes in athlets and is part of an Olympic team.  He warned me not to Squat, leg press etc because I will destroy my knees.  And he has plenty of X-rays to show
me of athlet's damaged knees.  We finally agreed that full Squats are dangerous for the knees, unless you go slowly and develop strong muscles to support the joint.  Then it is OK to squat.

The health professionals and gym-academy graduates, even an ex- bodybuilder, at my gym advise me to use the Smith for squats, even for the BenchPress, for safety.

BTW, regarding Squats, I am still not sure if I do it right, if I have enough flexibility for it.  I can still find on the net contradicting info for the allowed forward position of the knees.  So I ordered “Starting Strength” and “Practical Programming” books to find the answers.

Maybe I can tell you some programs I tried and which ones worked.

I tried Pavels PTP for strength.  It worked for me.  But Pavel’s Bear (hypertrophy) program gave me average results.  It totally failed to increase my biceps.  No matter how loud the experts say that TotalBodyWorkouts including chinups are all you need to increase biceps.

I tried to follow “The Waterbury High Frequency System ” at [http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=905832].  My leg size improved but everything else was a disaster.  It left me drained and injured.

I tried and had success with “100 Reps to Bigger Muscles” by Chad Waterbury [http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459605].  

From my experience I conclude that Waterbury’s “Hypertrophy Booster Shots” program [http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1063194] should work well combined with HST.  I want to try this.
 
Hello Bobpit and all reading,
I recently started the HST training and am only in my second week of 15's. I am doing the basic compounds (squat, bench, chins, press, deads, plus abs, shrugs and calves for iso's.) I am also doing 30-40 min of ss cardio on alternate days that I am not lifting. I have not really noticed the same feeling I had when I was doing the Body-For-Life cardio (HIIT) The Body-For-Life program worked really well for me as a noob in the gym. The problem was that I didn't gain much if any muscle, but rather was really cut up. I am currently about 187 lbs with (guessing here) around 16% BF. I want to cut up again without sacrificing muscle, which is why I am doing cardio and cutting calories on cardio days. The reason I have not been doing HIIT cardio is because I have read that it will burn up more muscle, but I am tempted to go back to that, simply because during the day I could really feel my metabolic rate rising. I would get really warm during the day periodically (especially after a meal.) With this ss cardio, I have not experienced that at all and it seems to be that my fat is not decreasing as much as I would like it to. I am eating properly, drinking plenty of water, and getting enough protien, and maybe it is the fact that I am getting older or something...but after reading bobpit's post here...I don't know. Which cardio routine gives you the most bang for your buck?
Thanks for reading and helping,
Matt
 
Make it stop....make it stop...the pain. THEEE PAAAAIN!DNP is the most productive form of cardio. Absolutely...you`ll definitely feel the metabolic rate go up, the fat burning is mad. And it`s also yellow.Ummm, yelloooowwww
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Ok, thanks for the info about DNP, but I am not trying to take any chemical substances- just looking for the best cardio routine to burn the most fat while hanging on to as much muscle as possible. HIIT or SS? Every morning or 3 times a week? Stuff like that
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-Matt
 
Look, hanging on to muscle and burning fat is kindof really really not determined by your cardio. PPL have been cutting with SS, HIIT, interval training with weights, short-rest-many-reps schemes etc. Why?Because the stuff you eat is more important WRT cutting...cardio is an added bonus, so to speak. Yeah, it`s good to do some, lest you want to die going up the stairs from fatigue. No, it`s not the prime driver behind physique improvement for bbers(IMHO), be it competitive or recreational.

Want to cut the most fat whilst hanging on to muscle...would you mind providing more details?At 16%, simply eating less and moving more should be enough. When you reach low-teens(10-12), that`s when you have to start worrying about muscle wasting etc. So if you`re not losing enough fat(BTW, how are you measuring this?), eat less, move more. Want to do HIIT?Ok. Want to keep on doing SS?Ok again, simply bump it up a little once the weight-loss stalls, and go in an alternating eat-less/move more pattern till you reach the above mentioned threshold. Keep pushing heavy weights, don`t use some retarded bber's advice of doing pump training with low weights and a billion reps. If you`re at the threshold and you still want to cut, there are more complex schemes that can be employed.

What I`d like to get across(and I`ll probably miserably fail at getting across) is that there`s no bloody magic WRT HIIT, the fat-burning-zone so on and so forth. In the end, it`s simply a game of calories, and diet is the prime driver here, not cardio.
 
Thanks for the info, Morg. To answer your question(s) I am not measuring (I know I should have/be) my BF %. I am just going off of my wieght on the scale and my pants fitting around my waist. To me it is not as important to get the numbers as it is to fit well in my clothes and look good for my wife out of them...that being said, I was generally happiest with my body about 3 years back, when I was filling out my shirts nicely as well as comfortably wearing 32&quot; jeans, without them being tight. Now, at that point I was weighing in at around 180 lbs. I could probably get back to that in a few months, but I'd ultimately like to be a 185 - 190 with less than 10% BF (maybe wearing 30&quot;jeans?) I know this will take much longer, but...that's kind of my rough goal.
Again, I am doing the HST program with the above mentioned excercises (compounds w/ iso's for shrugs and calves, and abs.) I am lifting Mon, Wed, Fri and doing cardio Tues Thurs Sat. I eat strictly during Mon - Sat, and Sunday is a free for all. My current diet is pretty much 50-40-10 on cardio days and 40-50-10 on lifting days.
Thanks again for your advice and input...how does my general routine look to you?
-Matt
 
Please tell me 10 does not mean 10% fat. Please. Also, please tell me you`re getting at least 6 grams of fish oil per dey(roughly 3 grams EPA+DHA).

Instead of writing a longish post here, i`d like to direct you to the following:http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/articles.html. Read at least the part about nutrition, especially the baseline diet ones. If you read all of the articles, kudos to you, you`ll get good information. Now come back to your diet and apply your newfound info...I`d guess quite a few changes will appear.

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Your macros isn't really what is important here, I mean yeah, it matters, but... how many calories are you eating? If you aren't losing fat/weight, then you are eating too much. Eat less, do more cardio.

Also, please completely ignore bobpit's post. What type of cardio you do is not going to effect fat storage to any significant degree. People have been getting shredded on SS cardio for decades, people have been getting shredded on HIIT cardio for a long time, etc etc etc, you see where this is going.
 
Just wanted to say THANKS again for your help, Morg. I checked out that webpage and I definately needed to re-evaluate my diet...especially with the fat. Only 2 days in w/new nutrition plan and already seeing and feeling a difference. I have decided to go w/HIIT as my cardio as well. I just like it better I suppose.
Cheers,
Matt
 
Guess I`ve only got about 999999 million sins to make up for now, seeing as to how I did a good thing for once
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. Seriously now, no thanks are needed, or better said, you should thank Lyle, not me, I simply pointed you in a direction I think is right. Cheers and good luck with your endeavours.
 
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