when to take protein/creatine

Discussion in 'Anything and Everything about dietary supplements' started by imported_davidwillis, Dec 4, 2006.

  1. The only suppliments I am taking is protein, and creatine(ethyl ester). My instructions on the creatine says to take it twice a day with a meal on none training days, and on training days to take it before and after workout, but at least 3 hours appart. My problem is that my workout is 1/2 to 1 hour long. So should I take it 2 hours before my workout, and then just after? That is what I have been doing. But don't know if that is the best. By the way, I take 2.5g each time to equal 5g a day.

    Also, I have two types of whey protein, on that is isolate, and one that is a combination of isolate, and consentrate (cheeper). I have been taking the combination one on none workout days, and the isolate on workout days. Is there any advantage to using just the isolate all the time?

    Thanks
     
  2. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    It won't matter either way for either thing. Just do whichever is easiest for you to be able to keep the habit of doing.
     
  3. Thanks, That is all I needed to know. [​IMG]
     
  4. vagrant

    vagrant New Member

    <div>
    (davidwillis @ Dec. 05 2006,11:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks, That is all I needed to know. [​IMG]</div>
    To get it into the muscles better, take the creatine after training. Protein is good anytime. I like it before and after training. If the creatine doesn't have sugar or better yet, dextrose in it, add some. At least 32g to get it into the muscle the very best.

    Make sure you increase your water intake because if you are on creatine, you are going to need it.

    With CEE, supposedly it doesn't matter at all and it doesn't even need the dextrose carrier.

    But why not take full advantage of your body's own natural post workout anabolic insulin response by downing some carbs and protein anyway?
     
  5. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    Since creatine is for enegertic purposes and temporarily increased strength, would it not be better to take creatine before a workout?

    Correct me if I am wrong.
     
  6. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    I think there are studies showing improved take-up of Creatine if taken prior to w/o. It's in the FAQ I think? I always take mine with some fruit juice 15 mins or so prior to my w/o.
     
  7. <div>
    (Lol @ Dec. 05 2006,20:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think there are studies showing improved take-up of Creatine if taken prior to w/o. It's in the FAQ I think? I always take mine with some fruit juice 15 mins or so prior to my w/o.</div>
    yes, I remember reading that(or was that for protein that I read?) The one I read said it was something like 200% more effective to take before the workout, but still a good idea to take both before and after. Anyway, is two hours before still before workout, or is that too long before? I just ask that, because my instructions say to take it before, and after, but at least 3 hours appart.
     
  8. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    I'm sure 2 hours is within the right window... maybe stick to an hour before.
     
  9. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    Pre-Initial PCr stores would be higher allowing more work to be done

    Post-Replenishment of PCr stores would occur

    I honestly don't see a lot of difference in either case your PCr stores are gonna be filled and since most humans only tunover about 1-2gm a day, if you are ingesting 5 grams/days you'll be fine.

    A recent study that showed an increase in sateliite cell activity with creatine supplementation broke the dosage up to 1/2 immediately pre and post and that sounds like a reasonable solution as well.
     
  10. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006 Nov;38(11):1918-25. Links
    Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.

    Cribb PJ,
    Hayes A.
    Exercise Metabolism Unit, Center for Ageing, Rehabilitation, Exercise and Sport; and the School of Biomedical Sciences, Victoria University, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
    PURPOSE: Some studies report greater muscle hypertrophy during resistance exercise (RE) training from supplement timing (i.e., the strategic consumption of protein and carbohydrate before and/or after each workout). However, no studies have examined whether this strategy provides greater muscle hypertrophy or strength development compared with supplementation at other times during the day. The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of supplement timing compared with supplementation in the hours not close to the workout on muscle-fiber hypertrophy, strength, and body composition during a 10-wk RE program. METHODS: In a single-blind, randomized protocol, resistance-trained males were matched for strength and placed into one of two groups; the PRE-POST group consumed a supplement (1 g x kg(-1) body weight) containing protein/creatine/glucose immediately before and after RE. The MOR-EVE group consumed the same dose of the same supplement in the morning and late evening. All assessments were completed the week before and after 10 wk of structured, supervised RE training. Assessments included strength (1RM, three exercises), body composition (DEXA), and vastus lateralis muscle biopsies for determination of muscle fiber type (I, IIa, IIx), cross-sectional area (CSA), contractile protein, creatine (Cr), and glycogen content. RESULTS: PRE-POST demonstrated a greater (P &lt; 0.05) increase in lean body mass and 1RM strength in two of three assessments. The changes in body composition were supported by a greater (P &lt; 0.05) increase in CSA of the type II fibers and contractile protein content. PRE-POST supplementation also resulted in higher muscle Cr and glycogen values after the training program (P &lt; 0.05). CONCLUSION: Supplement timing represents a simple but effective strategy that enhances the adaptations desired from RE-training.
     
  11. J Strength Cond Res. 2006 Aug;20(3):643-53. Links
    The effects of protein and amino acid supplementation on performance and training adaptations during ten weeks of resistance training.

    Kerksick CM,
    Rasmussen CJ,
    Lancaster SL,
    Magu B,
    Smith P,
    Melton C,
    Greenwood M,
    Almada AL,
    Earnest CP,
    Kreider RB.
    Center for Exercise, Nutrition and Preventive Health Research, Department of Health, Human Performance and Recreation, Baylor University, Waco, TX 76798, USA.
    The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of whey protein supplementation on body composition, muscular strength, muscular endurance, and anaerobic capacity during 10 weeks of resistance training. Thirty-six resistance-trained males (31.0 +/- 8.0 years, 179.1 +/- 8.0 cm, 84.0 +/- 12.9 kg, 17.8 +/- 6.6%) followed a 4 days-per-week split body part resistance training program for 10 weeks. Three groups of supplements were randomly assigned, prior to the beginning of the exercise program, in a double-blind manner to all subjects: 48 g per day (g.d(-1)) carbohydrate placebo (P), 40 g.d(-1) of whey protein + 8 g.d(-1) of casein (WC), or 40 g.d(-1) of whey protein + 3 g.d(-1) branched-chain amino acids + 5 g.d(-1) L-glutamine (WBG). At 0, 5, and 10 weeks, subjects were tested for fasting blood samples, body mass, body composition using dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), 1 repetition maximum (1RM) bench and leg press, 80% 1RM maximal repetitions to fatigue for bench press and leg press, and 30-second Wingate anaerobic capacity tests. No changes (p &gt; 0.05) were noted in all groups for energy intake, training volume, blood parameters, and anaerobic capacity. WC experienced the greatest increases in DEXA lean mass (P = 0.0 +/- 0.9; WC = 1.9 +/- 0.6; WBG = -0.1 +/- 0.3 kg, p &lt; 0.05) and DEXA fat-free mass (P = 0.1 +/- 1.0; WC = 1.8 +/- 0.6; WBG = -0.1 +/- 0.2 kg, p &lt; 0.05). Significant increases in 1RM bench press and leg press were observed in all groups after 10 weeks. In this study, the combination of whey and casein protein promoted the greatest increases in fat-free mass after 10 weeks of heavy resistance training. Athletes, coaches, and nutritionists can use these findings to increase fat-free mass and to improve body composition during resistance training.
     
  12. If I remember correctly, there is no increase in Creatine uptake when taken with glucose or any carbohydrate. Actually, the only thing which increased its uptake is amino acids. I have to find the article, it was a honker, about 100 pages and a comprehensive review of almost all the past and current literature.

    3grams is the saturation limit, so anything above that makes your piss that much more expensive.
    If you eat meat with any regularity, you are probably at saturation levels already barring any organic problems.
     
  13. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (drpierredebs @ Dec. 06 2006,15:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If I remember correctly, there is no increase in Creatine uptake when taken with glucose or any carbohydrate. Actually, the only thing which increased its uptake is amino acids.</div>
    Don't think you're right there Pierre.

    Green et al demonstrated that insulin augments muscle creatine accumulation in vivo in humans when insulin concentration is ~ 100 mU/l. In the study by Green et al subjects consumed 370 g of simple CHO per day for 5 days to achieve physiologically high serum insulin concentrations during the first hour after creatine administration.

    Steenge et al found that the ingestion of creatine, in conjunction with 47 g of simple CHO and 50 g of protein, resulted in a similar increase in serum insulin concentration to that achieved after the ingestion of 94 g of CHO and the insulin response was significantly greater than that observed after the ingestion of 50 g of CHO alone. The effect of this was an increase in whole body creatine retention to the same extent as that seen after the Green et al high-CHO load.  So ingestion of creatine, in conjunction with a lower amount of CHO but in combination with protein, could be used as an alternative and as a more manageable method to maximize muscle creatine accumulation.

    But neither of them looked at pre vs. post training.
     
  14. Cova

    Cova New Member

    Creatine:

    The thing about creatine supplementing is, you are really creating a creatine buffer that will then flow through your system and refuel the muscle tissue which is partially why they say to load on it(even though it isn't necessary).

    I am gonna have to agree that creatine doesn't do a whole lot if you are not taking in sugars with it. I use dextrose with my creatine monohydrate as the &quot;active transport&quot;.

    Quick resource for creatine: www.absolute-creatine.com

    Protein:

    I personally think it is best to sip on micellar all day and then consume some fast absorbing whey.
    I actually mix some whey protein and l-carnitine in with my oatmeal everyday to jump start my day.

    The ideal times are in the morning, either split a shake before/after workout, then before bed(ideally micellar caseins).
     
  15. <div>
    (Dan Moore @ Dec. 06 2006,19:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (drpierredebs @ Dec. 06 2006,15:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If I remember correctly, there is no increase in Creatine uptake when taken with glucose or any carbohydrate. Actually, the only thing which increased its uptake is amino acids.</div>
    Don't think you're right there Pierre.

    Green et al demonstrated that insulin augments muscle creatine accumulation in vivo in humans when insulin concentration is ~ 100 mU/l. In the study by Green et al subjects consumed 370 g of simple CHO per day for 5 days to achieve physiologically high serum insulin concentrations during the first hour after creatine administration.

    Steenge et al found that the ingestion of creatine, in conjunction with 47 g of simple CHO and 50 g of protein, resulted in a similar increase in serum insulin concentration to that achieved after the ingestion of 94 g of CHO and the insulin response was significantly greater than that observed after the ingestion of 50 g of CHO alone. The effect of this was an increase in whole body creatine retention to the same extent as that seen after the Green et al high-CHO load.  So ingestion of creatine, in conjunction with a lower amount of CHO but in combination with protein, could be used as an alternative and as a more manageable method to maximize muscle creatine accumulation.

    But neither of them looked at pre vs. post training.</div>
    I´ll have to check this.
     
  16. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    Steenge GR, Simpson EJ, Greenhaff PL.
    Protein- and carbohydrate-induced augmentation of whole body creatine retention
    in humans.
    J Appl Physiol. 2000 Sep;89(3):1165-71.

    Green AL, Hultman E, Macdonald IA, Sewell DA, Greenhaff PL.
    Carbohydrate ingestion augments skeletal muscle creatine accumulation during
    creatine supplementation in humans.
    Am J Physiol. 1996 Nov;271(5 Pt 1):E821-6.

    Green AL, Simpson EJ, Littlewood JJ, Macdonald IA, Greenhaff PL.
    Carbohydrate ingestion augments creatine retention during creatine feeding in
    humans.
    Acta Physiol Scand. 1996 Oct;158(2):195-202.

    also see these discussions and reviews, the Persky and Wyss are excellent

    J Nutr. 2004 Oct;134(10 Suppl):2888S-2894S; discussion 2895S.
    Potential ergogenic effects of arginine and creatine supplementation.
    Paddon-Jones D, Borsheim E, Wolfe RR.

    Pharmacol Rev 53:161–176, 2001
    Clinical Pharmacology of the Dietary Supplement Creatine Monohydrate
    ADAM M. PERSKY AND GAYLE A. BRAZEAU

    Wyss M, Kaddurah-Daouk R.
    Creatine and creatinine metabolism.
    Physiol Rev. 2000 Jul;80(3):1107-213. Review.
     
  17. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (Cova @ Dec. 06 2006,21:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Creatine:

    The thing about creatine supplementing is, you are really creating a creatine buffer that will then flow through your system and refuel the muscle tissue which is partially why they say to load on it(even though it isn't necessary).

    I am gonna have to agree that creatine doesn't do a whole lot if you are not taking in sugars with it. I use dextrose with my creatine monohydrate as the &quot;active transport&quot;.

    Quick resource for creatine: www.absolute-creatine.com

    Protein:

    I personally think it is best to sip on micellar all day and then consume some fast absorbing whey.
    I actually mix some whey protein and l-carnitine in with my oatmeal everyday to jump start my day.

    The ideal times are in the morning, either split a shake before/after workout, then before bed(ideally micellar caseins).</div>
    Well not really a buffer, you are simply maximizing muscle tissue creatine levels. The average human (~70kg) has about 120gm of creatine stored in muscle yet the capacity is ~150gm, so loading increases these levels sooner.

    Again not true and not what I was saying, I was disagreeing that simple CHO does not aid in retention or accumulation, it does. But, protein can do it as well so simple CHO isn't absolutely needed but helps and high levels of CHO are not needed if ingested with protein and obviously if serum insulin levels rise high enough.

    But overall, if your saturated your saturated and no amount of CHO or Protein is going to increase the creatine store. So if eating meat regularly, as Pierre said, then it's not even an issue.
     
  18. Wow, thanks guys. I can't believe all the information you guys have. I love this forum. I have never been one one where the people are so helpful. [​IMG]
     
  19. style

    style New Member

    I'm eating meat regularly, so I can throw away my creatine?
     
  20. style

    style New Member

    What a waste of money [​IMG]

    ''Wow, thanks guys. I can't believe all the information you guys have. I love this forum. I have never been one one where the people are so helpful''.

    yeh def an awesome forum [​IMG]
     

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