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25ffmi is the upper limit of what is likely attainable naturally, there will be some outliers but it sounds like you are arguing that most BB pics are of guys who are just a bit over 25, when in reality Phil Heath is like 35ffmi. There's a huge gulf once you are willing to use and I don't think anyone is arguing that. What I believe we are arguing is that data lends itself to 25ffmi being very possible.
 
I also doubt one would max out with only 3-4 years of training. Anyway there is really something wrong between Gnuckols ideas and some guys like nattyornot who claims that almost anyone bigger than Jason Statham or Bruce Lee is on roids. I'm starting to believe that the truth is in the middle...

Mojo77, I believe your statement that Gnuckols puts a FFMI of 25 as completely attainable is not accurate. See this part:

"
  1. The most relevant drawback for the purposes of this article: They’re not predictive. Even IF 25 was a true “limit” for what’s achievable without drugs (though it’s not), that wouldn’t mean that most people could reach 25, or even get particularly close to it. This is also the drawback of the Berkhan/Leangains model: It predicts what generally gifted people can achieve, not what you can achieve."

Also, let's not forget that carb/water manipulation plays a significant role on this math. We don't know the level of depletion in each of these athletes. Curiously I passed by such a situation on this week. Last Sunday I arrived from a 7 day trip in which I ate freely. I weighed 216 lbs. Today I weighed 208 lbs, after 3 days of low carb diet at a 500 kcal deficit. There's little chance I have lost 8 lbs of fat. The mirror is telling me that's water/glycogen. I took the time to fill Greg's FFMI calculator with both numbers and found a reduction from 25 to 24 FFMI. Meaningful for 3 days don't you think?
 
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Very true Leonard. The point is these predictions are very optimistic since,
1 they are based on elite lifters with elite genes to this
2 these lifters are all potential users since aas are around since the 1930's

Most, like 90% will end far south of this 25 ffmi. 22 would be more realistic and this should be stated more clearly. While you might not max out in 4 years of training, after 4 years without drawbacks, 95% of your potential should be there.

You dont have to be Phil Heath. Fitness models equally use. Jeff Seid and others all use, yet claim natural. Hence the reason why you can never know what is achievable natural.

As tests pointed out even a vast amount of amateurs use.

Potential and abuse are closely related and thus on point. In my opinion nattyornot is not too far off
 
I wish you the best Mojo but what you said above is a misrepresentation of the facts. You can achieve more than a 22ffmi without drugs.
 
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Mojo77 said:
Very true Leonard. The point is these predictions are very optimistic since,
1 they are based on elite lifters with elite genes to this
2 these lifters are all potential users since aas are around since the 1930's

Most, like 90% will end far south of this 25 ffmi. 22 would be more realistic and this should be stated more clearly. While you might not max out in 4 years of training, after 4 years without drawbacks, 95% of your potential should be there.

You dont have to be Phil Heath. Fitness models equally use. Jeff Seid and others all use, yet claim natural. Hence the reason why you can never know what is achievable natural.

As tests pointed out even a vast amount of amateurs use.

Potential and abuse are closely related and thus on point. In my opinion nattyornot is not too far off
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1. Why worry about a damn number? Spend more time on your training, your diet and your recovery and you'll get big. Whether that will later be categorised as as ffmi 22 or ffmi 24.7 or ffmi 23.6 ... who cares?

2. You are NOT achieving 95% of your lifetime gains in the first four years of training.
 
Also there are plenty of lifetime naturals out there that you can get a good sense of what is possible. You don't have to believe everyone is lying.
 
I know approximately zero people who reached their probable genetic max within four years of training. It took me almost a decade to get to my peak of size and strength.

Who cares anyway? Focusing too much on what is supposedly the best you can do is just an excuse to look like a piece of crap your whole life. How many people achieved their maximum potential by focusing on limits?

When I was struggling to break 200 lbs bodyweight, I personally didn't find it productive to sit around sobbing about how the magazines show unrealistic physiques or whining about the limitations of my genetics. No. I was too busy lifting heavy stuff and cramming in the calories to have time to cry about how unfair life is. There are people who do everything they can to achieve something and maybe they make it, maybe they only come close, and then there are the other people who never even come close to achieving things because they are too busy making excuses for failing to achieve. You get to decide which one you are.
 
Old and Grey said:
Welcome back Totz. Missed ya!
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Yes, no doubt!

Good advice Totentanz. So said Jester.

In the start I was a little scared by all the stuff I had just read on that site. After a few days I'm back to my diet and training, pursuing the best me I can possibly achieve. It's over.

Thanks.
 
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