Zone Contest

Discussion in 'General Training' started by AShortt, Jan 15, 2007.

  1. smf

    smf New Member

    <div>
    (AShortt @ Jan. 26 2007,14:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The main issue is:

    - To train in short ROM’s most of the time for more contractions per unit time and to do so with appropriate breaks (if any) between zones.
    Regards,
    Andrew</div>
    Andrew,

    How have you found this method to affect training if one's main goal is athletic performance? I ask because it seems to me that partial ROM reps would be more suited to hypertrophy and full range more suited to performance. I may be wrong about this, but I'm just curious if you've trained any (primarily) athletes w/ this method and what the results were.

    Thanks,
    s
     
  2. AShortt

    AShortt New Member

    <div>
    (smf @ Jan. 26 2007,14:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (AShortt @ Jan. 26 2007,14:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The main issue is:

    - To train in short ROM’s most of the time for more contractions per unit time and to do so with appropriate breaks (if any) between zones.
    Regards,
    Andrew</div>
    Andrew,

    How have you found this method to affect training if one's main goal is athletic performance? I ask because it seems to me that partial ROM reps would be more suited to hypertrophy and full range more suited to performance. I may be wrong about this, but I'm just curious if you've trained any (primarily) athletes w/ this method and what the results were.

    Thanks,
    s</div>
    Thanx for a good question, I am actual looking at that angle right now in depth. After 14 months of just going for size I need a bit of a break so I am working the ‘What can I do and How much can I lift angle’ to stay motivated. Personally I kickbox and find the added muscle complimentary.

    What you should note is that Zone Training doesn’t mean concentrating only on a partial ROM for any muscle. We tax our muscles through their full working Rom and do so better than achieved with full range reps only. We just break all moves into segments based on the tenants of the method. In a sense we are combining the best aspects of FROM with the better elements of partial ROM training.

    Most of my clients want better athletic ability, only some are actual looking for just size and shape. I would actually like to train more traditional bodybuilders but strength and agility performance is all the rage right now.

    Basically JReps help you deal with weak links, and weak areas in your muscle ROM. Now when I say perform dips they are much smoother and more stable. I don’t just need to rely on my strongest characteristics to work moves like dips, squats etc. So not only have I built better visual symmetry but functional symmetry as well.

    Regards,
    Andrew
     
  3. <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Muscle gains for me slowed and stagnated for years yet in the past 14 months I have built around 20 new pounds of lean mass, so perhaps I just didn’t know what I was doing before ;^)</div>

    So is there a specific diet component to Jreps to account for the mass gain, or is it more like Bryan or other folk' reccomendation of eating so many calories per pound of bodyweight -- I guess I mean, did you eat above maintenance as a prescription of the Jreps &quot;plan&quot; (lack of a better word, sorry) or did you figure your diet out on your own?
     
  4. faz

    faz Active Member

  5. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Andrew...as Etothepii mentioned before can one copy and paste certain parts of the book for the sake of discussing it, or does that make you liable for legal action? [​IMG]
     
  6. AShortt

    AShortt New Member

    <div>
    (etothepii @ Jan. 26 2007,16:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Muscle gains for me slowed and stagnated for years yet in the past 14 months I have built around 20 new pounds of lean mass, so perhaps I just didn’t know what I was doing before ;^)</div>

    So is there a specific diet component to Jreps to account for the mass gain, or is it more like Bryan or other folk' reccomendation of eating so many calories per pound of bodyweight -- I guess I mean, did you eat above maintenance as a prescription of the Jreps &quot;plan&quot; (lack of a better word, sorry) or did you figure your diet out on your own?</div>
    Etothepii,

    Zone Training is about how to perform reps/sets and structure workouts. You apply it to the style in which you like to train as well as how you like to eat.

    Regards,
    Andrew
     
  7. AShortt

    AShortt New Member

    <div>
    (Fausto @ Jan. 29 2007,09:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Andrew...as Etothepii mentioned before can one copy and paste certain parts of the book for the sake of discussing it, or does that make you liable for legal action? [​IMG]</div>
    I think the issue with cutting and pasting is people like to take stuff out of context. If you have a specific comment related to a specific question just make it. No need to take sections from their context just to try and pick it apart.

    This is akin to the comment about 21’s which are not JReps. There is no reason for 21’s except doing something different. With Zone work we do what we do and set up reps/sets for specific reasons based on individual reaction to exercise. In other words how do you know when (and to what degree) to apply something like a set of 21’s?

    Just following someone elses game plan will bring mediocre results in most cases. It is very rare that exactly what works for one person will work just as well for another. We all get basic gains from training hard for a few years in any style. What counts is what one can achieve past the basics (especially as one ages).

    Regards,
    Andrew
     
  8. faz

    faz Active Member

    wether its 21s 15s or 12s its bottom half, top half,full range, its been done before [​IMG]
     
  9. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think the issue with cutting and pasting is people like to take stuff out of context. If you have a specific comment related to a specific question just make it. No need to take sections from their context just to try and pick it apart. </div>

    did not want to dissect anything, but simply explain in plain terms what J-reps are all about, not going to drag in the mud either, to me it is a valuable tool and I see it as such.

    Although I may say some other guys may want to denigrate it for whatever reason and that would be beyond my control.

    I could also check whether I can put it into my own words!

    Cheers Andrew! [​IMG]
     
  10. AShortt

    AShortt New Member

    <div>
    (Fausto @ Jan. 30 2007,06:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think the issue with cutting and pasting is people like to take stuff out of context. If you have a specific comment related to a specific question just make it. No need to take sections from their context just to try and pick it apart. </div>

    did not want to dissect anything, but simply explain in plain terms what J-reps are all about, not going to drag in the mud either, to me it is a valuable tool and I see it as such.

    Although I may say some other guys may want to denigrate it for whatever reason and that would be beyond my control.

    I could also check whether I can put it into my own words!

    Cheers Andrew! [​IMG]</div>
    I wouldn’t be concerned about cutting and pasting as long as it isn’t just to try and put this in a bad light. The point of the contest is to encourage folks to give it a try.

    The net/bodybuilding is saturated with what people refer to as the lastest and possibly the greatest method. However, what most are not methods but exercise protocols i.e. do this many at this time and then that. Zone Training is an instrument to fit to your training as you see fit. Natural bodybuilders luv it as it like performing carpentry with a whole new set of high quality tools.

    Anyway blahblahblah I welcome real questions, the more specific the question the more specific an answer I can offer. The easiest way is just to ask what I personally do for myself or a client in a specific situation.

    BTW I have been zone training for over a year and none of my sets have ever been anything like a set of 21’s. Again you could use any rep scheme you want, your body should dictate the configurations and exact measures not someone elses compartmentalized ideology.

    Regards,
    Andrew
     
  11. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Ok, for those who do not know what J-reps are:

    A rep is divided into 2 or 3 portions within its range of movement, example the bench press last half is easier to complete than the bottom half, within the whole rep however there is a &quot;sticking&quot; point where the rep almost stops.

    J-reps attempts to remove the sticking point by avoiding it, so in a bench press, you would complete the bottom part of the rep first up to but not through the &quot;sticking&quot; point and then the top part only again avoiding the &quot;sticking&quot; point, by then the so called easier part is much more difficult, making the rep range more effective.

    Hope I have given it some light. [​IMG]

    Ok, now questions:

    Andrew - I hurt myself last year doing Peck-decks J-rep style, my my right trap became extremelly sore (this is an old injury though). Did I use too much weight for J-reps (I think I was using about 80 Kg), use to rep it normal style with 100 Kg.

    Did I perhaps get too close to the sticking point of the rep or even beyond it without realizing it? What could it be that went wrong? Using it for bench press worked well, however I had to drop the weight by at least 20 mayve even 30% in order to be able to rep it out!

    For squats it requires easily 40 - 50% until one is used to breaking it up, care to shed some light on J-rep squats?

    I guess that is my ramble for now! [​IMG]
     
  12. the_dark_master

    the_dark_master New Member

    Oh no, now ass-caught's gonna be runnin' to momma and tryin' to get your ASS sued... [​IMG]
     
  13. AShortt

    AShortt New Member

    <div>
    (Fausto @ Jan. 30 2007,08:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ok, for those who do not know what J-reps are:

    A rep is divided into 2 or 3 portions within its range of movement, example the bench press last half is easier to complete than the bottom half, within the whole rep however there is a &quot;sticking&quot; point where the rep almost stops.

    J-reps attempts to remove the sticking point by avoiding it, so in a bench press, you would complete the bottom part of the rep first up to but not through the &quot;sticking&quot; point and then the top part only again avoiding the &quot;sticking&quot; point, by then the so called easier part is much more difficult, making the rep range more effective.

    Hope I have given it some light. [​IMG]

    Ok, now questions:

    Andrew - I hurt myself last year doing Peck-decks J-rep style, my my right trap became extremelly sore (this is an old injury though). Did I use too much weight for J-reps (I think I was using about 80 Kg), use to rep it normal style with 100 Kg.

    Did I perhaps get too close to the sticking point of the rep or even beyond it without realizing it? What could it be that went wrong? Using it for bench press worked well, however I had to drop the weight by at least 20 mayve even 30% in order to be able to rep it out!

    For squats it requires easily 40 - 50% until one is used to breaking it up, care to shed some light on J-rep squats?

    I guess that is my ramble for now! [​IMG]</div>
    Frist that is about 10% of what JReps are. Example with squats:

    What I like to do is work first in fourths as a warm up. I start with going from below thigh parallel to just above then up just above parrallel, next about the middle and then towards (but not into) lock out. I then add about 30 % more load than normal and work the top 1/2 of the squat. I then strip to a normal load and work the middle 1/3 of the squat. Finally I strip the load to about 20% less than a standard set rest 20 full seconds and squeeze out reps in the bottom 1/3. I stop short of failure by going to the top to rest for 10 seconds for a total of 3 mini sets with a fourth to or close to failure. IN the end my thighs are swollen and rubberized

    Personally I don’t often avoid sticking points I just adjust cadence and load to suit them and work them on their own.

    As for your injury Fausto I would have to see you train. A trap problem with pec deck flys is odd. You may have very poor shoulder stabilization issue but I would have to see you train.

    By what you say about load reduction you are clearly training far heavier than your target muscles can handle. You are using skill not real strength, a reduction in load means you aren’t as strong in those muscles as you may have thought. This is a big stumbling block for many in that ego gets in the way. I want muscle not strength performances so I just do what needs to be done.

    Take the squat again for a example. If you have to reduce load it just means you were doing nothing more than resting in the top half, to facilitate reps with your load in the bottom half. This is fine once in a while but abused it is a massive waste of energy and time sort of like a poor version of rest pause training.

    Regards,
    Andrew
     
  14. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    No can do...I have used my own words to describe the method, and in that I have not copied any portion of the book.

    Besides if Andrew hangs around here is because he can see quality discussion and stuff &quot;floating&quot; around and he has not disregarded HST besides saying that J-reps are superior...and he is entitled to his own opinion...even if we totally disagree [​IMG]
     
  15. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Thanks Andrew.

    Ok, as I said my trap injury is pretty old and I have had to train around it.

    The peck deck aggravated it, and my shoulder also suffered a bit, almost like an inpingement, could have been my position with regards to the pads.

    Squats with J-reps are pure torture but as you said it swells the thighs nicely, I think there is no way I could be using my normal poundage in the squat when doing J-reps, I'd have to start with 50% of 1 RM to do what you describe.

    Cheers mate...and thanks again! [​IMG]
     
  16. AShortt

    AShortt New Member

    <div>
    (Fausto @ Jan. 30 2007,09:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">No can do...I have used my own words to describe the method, and in that I have not copied any portion of the book.

    Besides if Andrew hangs around here is because he can see quality discussion and stuff &quot;floating&quot; around and he has not disregarded HST besides saying that J-reps are superior...and he is entitled to his own opinion...even if we totally disagree [​IMG]</div>
    Zone Training: 'The Johnston Rep Mehtod' is a very different thing than HST. You can't compare them. I am not saying it is better than anything just a very useful tool to help you apply the styles of training you like to use. Both to failure and not to failure types apply it to marked effect.

    The point about the contest again: Just learn the method and apply it to one or two muscle groups and likely you will see them grow better than muscles you don’t apply it to. Of course the amount of change is relative to your genetics and level of experience but it is notable.

    For a experienced trainee the contest leans towards hitting a weaker body part one that lags behind. This is where you will often see the most dramatic gains if you have been training for a long time.

    Regards,
    Andrew
     
  17. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I wasn't gonna get in this until you said this:
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">J-reps attempts to remove the sticking point by avoiding it, so in a bench press, you would complete the bottom part of the rep first up to but not through the &quot;sticking&quot; point and then the top part only again avoiding the &quot;sticking&quot; point, by then the so called easier part is much more difficult, making the rep range more effective.</div>
    Funny, that's the opposite of what guys have done for years to get past a sticking point! That's why floor presses and board presses were invented. To work the sticking point until it gets stronger.
     
  18. AShortt

    AShortt New Member

    <div>
    (Fausto @ Jan. 30 2007,09:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks Andrew.

    Ok, as I said my trap injury is pretty old and I have had to train around it.

    The peck deck aggravated it, and my shoulder also suffered a bit, almost like an inpingement, could have been my position with regards to the pads.

    Squats with J-reps are pure torture but as you said it swells the thighs nicely, I think there is no way I could be using my normal poundage in the squat when doing J-reps, I'd have to start with 50% of 1 RM to do what you describe.

    Cheers mate...and thanks again! [​IMG]</div>
    I would recommend looking into the ‘shoulderhorn’ for rotator work. The type of thing you describe is often caused by a gross difference between internal and external rotator strength. This cheap simple device makes rotator work fast and extremely effective, I use it with clients all the time and am always shocked how quickly and well it works to isolate and balance this function...rotators are incredibly important and take a massive amount of abuse.

    Regards,
    Andrew
     
  19. AShortt

    AShortt New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Jan. 30 2007,10:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I wasn't gonna get in this until you said this:
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">J-reps attempts to remove the sticking point by avoiding it, so in a bench press, you would complete the bottom part of the rep first up to but not through the &quot;sticking&quot; point and then the top part only again avoiding the &quot;sticking&quot; point, by then the so called easier part is much more difficult, making the rep range more effective.</div>
    Funny, that's the opposite of what guys have done for years to get past a sticking point! That's why floor presses and board presses were invented. To work the sticking point until it gets stronger.</div>
    What he was saying about JReps/sticking points is incorrect and an example of why much nastiness occurs. People who want to cut it down pretend they understand it and set it up for a fall.

    Sometimes I don’t work into a sticking point. Other times I use static holds at sticking points at the beginning middle and/or end of a set. There are many possible applications in Zone Training.

    Regards,
    Andrew
     
  20. Bulldog

    Bulldog Active Member

    What does this type of training do to the time required to complete a workout? It seems like it would just about triple the time required in the gym. Which is not something I would be willing to do.

    Although JReps sounds interesting I prefer to keep things simple. Lift weight, next training session add 5% and lift weight.

    It just doesn't get any easier than that and there is no doubt that it works as laid out by Bryan in the HST principles. JReps sounds way, way to complicated for me to try to figure out how to apply it to my training and actually get results. With HST I know I will get results and it is very, very easy to layout a program.
     

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