200, 300, 400, 500 - A quest for greatness

[imported_electric]

It looks like a good approach although it sounds to me just like HST but without zigzag and with clustering (which many people are already doing). I just don't think it is practical for novice trainees since relying on movement speed or "short of failure" is probably too subjective for less experienced lifters (like myself).

 

[beingisbeing]

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Density seems like an important factor in training efficacy </div>

I remember Bryan had a breakdown of the three factors that go into hypertrophy.

#3 I believe was something on the order of oxidative stress/metabolic fatigue.

So it could be that its the least significant, but for more experienced lifters, it becomes more critical.

This could explain Blade's observations, perhaps?

I'll have to find the text again.

 

[Lol]

Good grist for the mill Mikey.

Like electric said, several of us here have tried these techniques and they are good. I've never done it for all exercises for a whole cycle though so I think I will plan to do so.

Here is a thread containing posts on a similar train of thought that Shlevon and Dan made over on the Darden board at the end of last year. I remembered reading them, thankfully managed to find the link, and thought they would fit in here nicely.

Max-Stim and Fatigue Management

 

[mikeynov]

<div>
(Lol @ Aug. 29 2008,3:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Good grist for the mill Mikey.

Like electric said, several of us here have tried these techniques and they are good. I've never done it for all exercises for a whole cycle though so I think I will plan to do so.

Here is a thread containing posts on a similar train of thought that Shlevon and Dan made over on the Darden board at the end of last year. I remembered reading them, thankfully managed to find the link, and thought they would fit in here nicely.

Max-Stim and Fatigue Management</div>
I am shlevon, btw, hence the enormous similarity in description

I know people have used clustering for a long time, but I wasn't aware that people were clustering with such short rest periods (~15-30 seconds).

I also think the guidelines using a noticeable reduction in rep speed add an enormous practical element to their use. I figure the &quot;no more than 5 mini-sets in a row&quot; will also serve such a purpose to help avoid overtraining, but I'll need guinea pigs (including myself) to test it at some point

 

[mikeynov]

<div>
(electric @ Aug. 29 2008,11:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It looks like a good approach although it sounds to me just like HST but without zigzag and with clustering (which many people are already doing). I just don't think it is practical for novice trainees since relying on movement speed or &quot;short of failure&quot; is probably too subjective for less experienced lifters (like myself).</div>
This exact discussion came up on Lyle's board when somebody asked what training audience this modified rest/pause should be aimed at, and here's what I wrote there:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am not Blade, but I think this would work very well starting at the intermediate stage, but would probably be unnecessary for beginners.

I think one of the key features of somebody in the beginner stage, which goes along with their ability to make linear, incremental gains, is that strength training basically = hypertrophy training, since the stimulus is more or less constantly &quot;new&quot; by virtue of adding weight to the bar.

For these people, I'd much rather have them do something like a Starting Strength routine or even an old AJ style HIT routine focusing on actually cool exercises.

I suppose some of these ideas might also work just fine in that audience, but I kind of doubt it'd work appreciably better than a more straightforward approach. Since they're also in the tentative position of trying to learn proper form, you might not want to exacerbate this problem by pushing them into a state of perpetual fatigue like this too early, too.</div>

 

[Lol]

<div>
(mikeynov @ Aug. 29 2008,9:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Lol @ Aug. 29 2008,3:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Good grist for the mill Mikey.

Like electric said, several of us here have tried these techniques and they are good. I've never done it for all exercises for a whole cycle though so I think I will plan to do so.

Here is a thread containing posts on a similar train of thought that Shlevon and Dan made over on the Darden board at the end of last year. I remembered reading them, thankfully managed to find the link, and thought they would fit in here nicely.

Max-Stim and Fatigue Management</div>
I am shlevon, btw, hence the enormous similarity in description

I know people have used clustering for a long time, but I wasn't aware that people were clustering with such short rest periods (~15-30 seconds).

I also think the guidelines using a noticeable reduction in rep speed add an enormous practical element to their use.  I figure the &quot;no more than 5 mini-sets in a row&quot; will also serve such a purpose to help avoid overtraining, but I'll need guinea pigs (including myself) to test it at some point

</div>
Aha! That explains that then.

Seeing that thread was a year ago, how come you haven't tried this for a cycle yet then?

 

[mikeynov]

<div>
(Lol @ Aug. 29 2008,6:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(mikeynov @ Aug. 29 2008,9:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Lol @ Aug. 29 2008,3:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Good grist for the mill Mikey.

Like electric said, several of us here have tried these techniques and they are good. I've never done it for all exercises for a whole cycle though so I think I will plan to do so.

Here is a thread containing posts on a similar train of thought that Shlevon and Dan made over on the Darden board at the end of last year. I remembered reading them, thankfully managed to find the link, and thought they would fit in here nicely.

Max-Stim and Fatigue Management</div>
I am shlevon, btw, hence the enormous similarity in description

I know people have used clustering for a long time, but I wasn't aware that people were clustering with such short rest periods (~15-30 seconds).

I also think the guidelines using a noticeable reduction in rep speed add an enormous practical element to their use.  I figure the &quot;no more than 5 mini-sets in a row&quot; will also serve such a purpose to help avoid overtraining, but I'll need guinea pigs (including myself) to test it at some point

</div>
Aha! That explains that then.

Seeing that thread was a year ago, how come you haven't tried this for a cycle yet then?</div>
Well, my funny story goes like this...

I thought of that idea, amongst others, during a time when the creative juices were flowing.  I played with it a little bit, originally in a double progression type format as outlined for &quot;HIT 2.0.&quot;

However, despite the fact that it felt tremendously &quot;straining,&quot; I wasn't sure how viable it was as a complete system.  I try to be somewhat practical in my own training, so I didn't carry my experimentation too far (you can only try so many things at once). I've used it here and there, and certainly would have used it again, but never really tried to make a full program out of it.

Fast forward to recently when this discussion came up again on Lyle's board, and it seems Blade took this much further in experimentation than I ever did.  It's actually scary how close his protocol is to what I described.  He has indicated that he has never, in himself or others, seen such rapid gains in strength/size as when incorporating these cycles of the modified rest/pause.

In as much as I greatly respect his opinion as he is one of the pioneer labcoats at this forum, this leads me to believe that this method could be more valuable than I realized.

 

[mikeynov]

&quot;Submaximal Effort&quot; training

In a previous entry, I described the main methods used in the Westside template:

Max Effort
Dynamic Effort
Repeated Effort

However, one of the ideas that have been tossed out in the past is &quot;submaximal effort&quot; to replace max or dynamic effort work.  I think James Smith was the first to coin the term?  I forget.  Basically, the idea is submaximal strength training that is not as heavy as max effort work, but heavier than dynamic effort.

If you look at the model of one's training career in Rippetoe's Practical Programming, sets of 5 &quot;drive&quot; progress over time and basically serve the same function.

At the beginner stage, 3 sets of 5 across are done 2-3 times a week.  By the intermediate stage, 5 sets of 5 across are done once a week in order to drive gains, with a second day that looks a bit like low volume, max effort work (i.e. working up to a max 5, 3, or 1 RM).

One of the ideas I've long been interested in is &quot;slow cooking&quot; type strength methods, where you never really push failure but still accrue strength gains over time.  Rip's logic above is one example.  Another is Hepburn's A/B style routines, where singles and triples are done at a particular weight for a while until a certain critical volume has been reached, and the weight is increased.  There are countless others.

As such, I've been trying to think of handy &quot;submaximal effort&quot; methods that could be of value, and wrote out a simple system which I think should work quite well.

3 week waves:

Week 1: 3 sets of 5 @ 80% 1 RM
Week 2: 4 sets of 5 @ 80% 1 RM
Week 3: 5 sets of 5 @ 80% 1 RM
Week 4: deload and/or start over with a new 1 RM

These numbers, of course, aren't written in stone, but it's probably enough total volume to drive strength progress in the core lifts.

What's nice is that I see this method working well in conjunction with the HST variant of &quot;Repeated Effort,&quot; i.e. the volume scales up as the weights scale up for your repeated effort work, and you deload every 4th week in both.

One option for deloading would be to do a single set of 5 or something along those lines at your new 80% 1 RM, which should serve to preserve the neural magic of your strength increases during your &quot;off&quot; week while still drastically reducing the hypertrophic stimulus to your muscles.  I.e. the SD should still &quot;work&quot; while you retain your strength while deloading.

As another note worth mentioning, this submaximal effort work could also be scaled to how you're eating.  I.e. if you're actively dieting, you could use cycles of 1-3 sets of 5 instead of 3-5, that sort of thing.

The idea here is to keep the %'s about right - your 1 RM should be going up over time, and the strength work stays in that &quot;medium heavy&quot; range to keep progress moving along.  The danger, if there is one, would be forcing this work too heavy too fast - the point is to accrue strength gains without ever quite pushing that failure threshold.  If you want to PR and/or risk failure, that would be the place of max effort work, which could run alongside (i.e. on the opposite day) the submaximal effort.

I think for very advanced lifters, dynamic effort work, in a way (particularly with short rest periods), actually is serving a similar function.  However, I think a lot of people need that &quot;medium-heavy&quot; work to keep pushing strength along over time (i.e. Rip's logic), and as previously discussed, sets of 5 do this arguably as well as anything.

 

[leegee38]

I only know for sure that Ron agrees with me on this, Mike, but don't you find the the clusters with limited rest between them are very similar to the training Vince Gironda promoted? The only difference is that he prescribed you stop after a specific number of reps for each mini set, but I think his 6x6 with 15 seconds rest between provides relatively similar stimulation to a cluster set to 30 reps with limited rest. Do you think differently?

 

[mikeynov]

<div>
(leegee38 @ Aug. 30 2008,7:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I only know for sure that Ron agrees with me on this, Mike, but don't you find the the clusters with limited rest between them are very similar to the training Vince Gironda promoted?  The only difference is that he prescribed you stop after a specific number of reps for each mini set, but I think his 6x6 with 15 seconds rest between provides relatively similar stimulation to a cluster set to 30 reps with limited rest.  Do you think differently?</div>
I agree, the logic is quite similar.

However, I think the &quot;modified rest/pause&quot; described can be a lot more flexible than a static set/rep scheme.

 

[leegee38]

<div>
(mikeynov @ Aug. 30 2008,8:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">However, I think the &quot;modified rest/pause&quot; described can be a lot more flexible than a static set/rep scheme.</div>
I think so too, Mike. I just think that the number of good physiques that Vince produced over the years is probably evidence that you and Blade are on the right track. If you believe that load is an important component then your method should probably be superior to Vince's. I'll probalby attempt a cycle of something similar soon.

 

[mikeynov]

<div>
(leegee38 @ Aug. 30 2008,11:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(mikeynov @ Aug. 30 2008,8:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">However, I think the &quot;modified rest/pause&quot; described can be a lot more flexible than a static set/rep scheme.</div>
I think so too, Mike.  I just think that the number of good physiques that Vince produced over the years is probably evidence that you and Blade are on the right track.  If you believe that load is an important component then your method should probably be superior to Vince's.  I'll probalby attempt a cycle of something similar soon.</div>
Indeed, there does seem to be something to &quot;density&quot; style training.

In fact, I think you can fit other systems into this observation as well:

* DC training is the most obvious with the rest/pause, of course.

* However, consider the early style HIT routines AJ was putting people through.

Example:

Leg extensions
Leg Press
Squats
Leg Curls

That was AJ's &quot;leg routine&quot; at one point for his trainees, all exercises done back to back to back to back without rest. What he was identifying as &quot;high intensity&quot; could also be seen as &quot;very high density.&quot;

If you could arrange it, the above is actually a pretty fascinating idea. I.e. imagine modified rest pause using the same principle, where you started bouncing back and forth between multiple exercises between mini-sets that worked the same muscles.

* The old 20 rep, breathing squat routines in general (DC makes use of this separately, of course).

 

[scientific muscle]

<div>
(mikeynov @ Aug. 30 2008,11:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Indeed, there does seem to be something to &quot;density&quot; style training.</div>
I have to agree. One of the reasons I liked Dan Moore's &quot;Max-stimulation&quot; idea so much was the fact that an incredible density of load (volume/time) can be achieved using the method of 'm-time'.

 

[mikeynov]

SST

Squats

Warmed up to 280, and then back down to 260 for a set of 5.

This actually felt nicer/easier than the set of 5 last time with 255, so cool deal.  I think the weekends allow me to recharge a bit.

Strict Press

Warmed up to 150 for a single, and then back down to 130 for a set of 5.

Hammer Iso Row

As I'll note below, the weight I selected for a set of 5 (200, 2 plates + 10 lbs per side) I managed 11 reps with.  

So my &quot;actual&quot; set was 210 for a set of ~5.5.

HST

Leg Press + Calf Raises + Leg Curls

Leg Press - Warmed up to 6 plates + 25 + 5 lbs per side for a set of 10 reps.  I sucked in a breath or two after rep 8 between reps.

Calf Raises - 3 plates + 25 lbs per side for a set of 10, and then 15 reps in the bottom half.

Leg Curls - 150 + 1 increment (however much the little weights weigh) for a set of 10 reps.

Hammer Iso Row + Pullovers + Seated DB Curls

Hammer Iso Row - As above, my set of &quot;10&quot; was 200 lbs.

Pullovers - 150 for a set of 10 reps.  I need to be careful here, I felt a zingy type feeling down my left biceps upon initiating the concentric after ~5 reps or so.  Perhaps I should try tinkering with my setup.

Seated DB Curls - 42.5s for a set of 10.  Hard.

Incline DB Bench + Dips

Incline DB Bench - 70s for a set of 10 reps.

Dips - Me + 65 lbs for a set of 10 reps.

 

[mikeynov]

Another pretty good day.  I can feel strength improving on a session to session basis.

SST

Bench

Warmed up to 240 for a paused single, then back down to 217.5 for a set of 5, first rep paused.  Not too bad.

Chins

Warmed up to me + 125 for a single, then back down to me + 100 lbs for 5 reps.   Same deal as last time, last rep = chin JUST cleared the bar.

Deadlifts

I performed an experiment today and tried deadlifting in my oly shoes.  I recall Rip saying something to the effect that he actually preferred deadlifting in heeled shoes, as he felt it helped his quad strength off the floor.

Given the form I am practicing now, &quot;leg pressing the weight off the floor while keeping my back angle fixed,&quot; I decided to try this and, sure enough, it actually felt a little better.  Arguably stricter, too (i.e. when arching my back I could feel some tension in my hamstrings, which is a good sign that I am maintaining neutrality).

Warmed up to 345 for a single, then back down to 325 for a couple sets of 5.  First one not so bad, second one reasonably challenging, but next week starts single sets of 5, so this went about perfectly.


HST

Leg Press + Calf Raises + Leg Curls

Leg Press - warmed up to 7 plates per side for a set of 10.  This is an all time PR.

I actually noticed leg pressing in my oly shoes feels better.

Calf Raises - 3 plates + 25 + 5 lbs per side for a set of 10 reps + 15 bottom half reps immediately afterwards.

Leg Curls - 150 + 2 increments (one behind 170) for a set of 10 reps.

Hammer Iso Row + Machine Pullover + Seated Curls

Hammer Iso Row - 2 plates + 10 + 2.5 lbs per side (205) for a set of 8 reps.  Lats definitely fatigued from the chinning and deadlifts beforehand.

Machine Pullover - 165? (one notch above 15) for a set of 10 reps.

Seated Curls - 45s for a set of 10.  I felt that twinge-y feeling in my left biceps doing these today.  Not a huge deal, but curious what it is.

Incline DB Bench + Dips

Incline DB Bench - 72.5s for a set of 10 reps.

Dips - Me + 70 lbs for a set of 10 reps.

 

[Lol]

I pretty much always deadlift in my Oly shoes. They definitely make me focus more on the quad drive off the floor. However, I think if I was going for a PR I'd switch to flat-soled shoes like Chucks just for the bit of extra leverage afforded.

 

[TunnelRat]

<div>
(mikeynov @ Sep. 02 2008,8:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bench

Warmed up to 240 for a paused single, then back down to 217.5 for a set of 5

Chins

Warmed up to me + 125 for a single, then back down to me + 100 lbs for 5 reps.  

Deadlifts

Warmed up to 345 for a single, then back down to 325 for a couple sets of 5.</div>
Didn't we discuss this practice a few days (weeks?) ago.

It would seem to me that lifting heavy then scaling back for reps would work to get all the motor units firing. I would tend to think that is a good thing.

Then somebody opined that it was not a good idea (though I forget why...). I'm a little old and slow about learning some of these concepts, but a few words of explanation here would be a help for me.

 

[mikeynov]

<div>
(TunnelRat @ Sep. 02 2008,11:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(mikeynov @ Sep. 02 2008,8:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bench

Warmed up to 240 for a paused single, then back down to 217.5 for a set of 5

Chins

Warmed up to me + 125 for a single, then back down to me + 100 lbs for 5 reps.  

Deadlifts

Warmed up to 345 for a single, then back down to 325 for a couple sets of 5.</div>
Didn't we discuss this practice a few days (weeks?) ago.

It would seem to me that lifting heavy then scaling back for reps would work to get all the motor units firing. I would tend to think that is a good thing.

Then somebody opined that it was not a good idea (though I forget why...). I'm a little old and slow about learning some of these concepts, but a few words of explanation here would be a help for me.</div>
I think that discussion was in the context of applying it to HST. I.e. venturing too quickly into heavy loads too early in the cycle for the sake of performance, which is secondary to hypertrophy considerations.

In terms of performance, the old Charles Poliquin 1-6 method or whatever he called it works quite well.

In this case, warm up to a medium-heavy single, then back down for your work set(s).

 

[mikeynov]

Uh oh.  After feeling like my strength was going up every session, I managed to have a mediocre day.  I blame the weather/rain!

SST

Squats

These actually felt fine, and I warmed up to 285 for a single.

Then back down to 265 for a set of...4.5.  I actually managed to fail my 5th rep, which I definitely did not anticipate doing either before the set or during it.  I just got juiced straining on the way up, and had to set it down in the rack.

I literally can't remember the last time I failed a rep in squats.  This set a bad tone, unfortunately.

Press

Even warmups on this felt like garbage, and I went up to 145 for a couple of singles, which did not feel very quick. I also got a pinchy pain on the first of these singles in my left shoulder, which I am prone to occasionally getting, so I need to be cautious here.

Back down to 132.5 for a set of 4.5.  Could not manage the last rep on this, either.

Chest Supported Rows

At this point, because some dude was sitting on the Hammer Iso Row on his cell phone for like 20+ minutes, I just did some random chest supported row for a set of 9.

HST

I decided that I hit most of my 10 RM's in this, and given that I might be borderline overtrained, decided to skip this for the day.

Instead, I did a set of 35 bottom half leg presses with light weight and some pauses, 25 continuous style pushups, and 25 continuous style lat pulldowns to pump a whole bunch of blood into all my muskelz.

As of next week, I think I may switch to an upper/lower split with the same exercises to make any given day a little more manageable, and also peak my strength exercises over a few weeks.

 

[mikeynov]

Also, I am getting fat way too fast. The belt seems a little tighter every time I wear it, and my weight is steadily climbing.

Obviously, getting back what I had before is good, but getting overfat in the process is less good. Apparently 3500 average daily kcals was a little overly ambitious?