200, 300, 400, 500 - A quest for greatness

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(Aaron_F @ Aug. 24 2008,10:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(EL_VIEJO @ Aug. 23 2008,9:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I watched a few of your videos. Very impressive. You just might be the strongest person strength/body-weight on this forum. That 145lb chin is incredible.</div>
hes also one of the few that will disappear when he turns sideways</div>
Mikey is a smart guy, that's why he took the video from the front. If he'd taken it from the side you'd have just seen 45lb plates hovering in mid air!
(This 'hatin' on the skinnies' comment was brought to you by the League of Portly Gentlemen).
 
That John Carlson elitefts.com article was interesting. I expect many natty's have had the same experience over the years. I haven't been in the iron game long enough to have had all his experiences yet but I do feel that I now have some pretty realistic expectations of what is possible for a natty lifter.

What I found strange about Carlson's experience was that he spent a good deal of time lifting with the goal of increasing his bw from 207lb to 225lb bw yet he remained at 207lb. He then surmised that it was his training that was up the creek! He obviously knows his stuff (as far as training goes) but seemingly chose to ignore the fact that if you want to be heavier you have to eat over maintenance. Yes, you'll add some fat too but so what? Evidently he wants to maintain a certain level of leanness in which case it would seem that he will just stay at whatever body weight his p-ratio dictates he will need to be.

As I am getting leaner again I am very aware that I am losing muscle mass along the way. Without drugs this would seem to be unavoidable, although heavy training obviously helps retain as much as possible. Lean and as strong as possible? I don't think so.
 
Mikey,

I have just watch some of your videos...and you are one strong dude considering your size and weight.

Have you ever just said the heck with the strenght training part of training and just went on a binge of extra calories and hypertrophy type training?

I am guessing with your knowledge and desire you would like the results?

In other words a lot of us are guilty for hypertrophy training too much and not getting stronger but it appears you have been getting stronger and stronger but haven't done a lot of hypertrophy training?
 
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(Lol @ Aug. 24 2008,7:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That John Carlson elitefts.com article was interesting. I expect many natty's have had the same experience over the years. I haven't been in the iron game long enough to have had all his experiences yet but I do feel that I now have some pretty realistic expectations of what is possible for a natty lifter.

What I found strange about Carlson's experience was that he spent a good deal of time lifting with the goal of increasing his bw from 207lb to 225lb bw yet he remained at 207lb. He then surmised that it was his training that was up the creek! He obviously knows his stuff (as far as training goes) but seemingly chose to ignore the fact that if you want to be heavier you have to eat over maintenance. Yes, you'll add some fat too but so what? Evidently he wants to maintain a certain level of leanness in which case it would seem that he will just stay at whatever body weight his p-ratio dictates he will need to be.

As I am getting leaner again I am very aware that I am losing muscle mass along the way. Without drugs this would seem to be unavoidable, although heavy training obviously helps retain as much as possible. Lean and as strong as possible? I don't think so.</div>
I think the lack of eating excess calories was interesting, and I await part 2. I think I already know the answer, though...

If your training is not sponsoring growth, forcing down more calories will largely just make you fatter. If/when you decide to get leaner again, it is my experience that weight gained in this manner will be a sloppy mix of muscle/fat and you will wind up back at square one.

I actually ate myself up to the high 170's at one point thinking this was true, and my PL numbers benefitted. It's how I peaked out for my competition, actually.

But despite pretty cautious dieting, what happened was that, when dieting down to lower bodyfat again, none of the weight seemed to stick.

My experience is that legitimate, training-induced gains in muscle tend to &quot;stick,&quot; and seem to reset your &quot;set point&quot; for how much muscle you hold. When you &quot;force&quot; it by simply overeating, even if you &quot;strength train,&quot; the only way to be permanently more muscular/stronger is to stay fatter.
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Aug. 24 2008,2:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mikey,

I have just watch some of your videos...and you are one strong dude considering your size and weight.

Have you ever just said the heck with the strenght training part of training and just went on a binge of extra calories and hypertrophy type training?

I am guessing with your knowledge and desire you would like the results?

In other words a lot of us are guilty for hypertrophy training too much and not getting stronger but it appears you have been getting stronger and stronger but haven't done a lot of hypertrophy training?</div>
My first order of business is to get my strength up after going for low bodyfat over the summer.

My second order of business will be to do a lot more to be &quot;hypertrophy-specific&quot; in my training and eating. Which might mean I have to break my &quot;addiction&quot; to low rep training :-x
 
None the less your past and Im sure present physique looks awesome. Not to mention your current strength!

I guess out of selfishness...I would like to see the ol MikeyNov go on one hell of calorie splurg with mean HS training!
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I was feeling a little tired earlier today, but decided I'd have a cup of coffee before training on training days after seeing a piece of research which seemed to imply good things about caffeine on anaerobic exercise performance.

I think the combination of a bit of caffeine and the deloading that has already started to occur is seeing performance boosts already, because today was a good day.

This is phase II of my program, where I only go for top sets of 5 for the SST portion of my program. The HST component has now switched to 10's.

SST

Squats

Warmed all the way up to 275 for a single with a loose belt on. Didn't feel too bad.

Backed down to 250 for a set of 5.

Still a bit of hip shifting going on but the set actually felt pretty solid.

Weirdly, looking down Rip style actually felt good again today.

Bench

Warmed up to 225 for a paused single, which actually felt easy.

Back down to 210 for a set of 6, first rep paused. Hell, I might have had 7 in me with a gun to my head. Cool deal here.

Chins

Warmed up with me + 115 for an easy single, then backed down to me + 95 for a set of 5, from dead hang to bar to sternum on every rep.

HST

Leg Press + Leg Curls + Calf Raise

6 plates per side for a set of 10 on the 35 degree leg press. To make things more challenging, I took no rest between every rep instead of sucking in wind, which definitely increased the &quot;burn&quot; of the set.

Leg curls were 145 for a set of 10 done slowly.

Calf Raises were 3 plates + 5 lbs per side for a set of 10 reps followed by 15 half/slow reps at the bottom.

Hammer Iso Row + Machine Pullovers

150 (1 plate + 25 + 5 lbs per side) for a set of 10 in the Hammer Iso Row.

110 for a set of 10 in machine pullovers, with hands spaced closely and an emphasis on a strong lat stretch at the back of each repetition.

Incline DB Bench + Dips

A set of 62.5s for 10 in incline bench, with very slow eccentrics and pauses at the bottom of each to increase difficulty (i.e. following Bryan's guidelines of slowing things down early in the minicycle to make things a little harder).

A set of me + 50 lbs for 10 reps in dips when I got home, emphasizing slow eccentrics and momentary pauses at the bottom of each rep.

Seated Curls for the Girls

A set of 35s for 10 reps done slow-ish with emphasis on contracting my biceps at the top of each rep.
 
Very thought provoking stuff , as a fellow low rep high set addict this gives me much food for thought... my personal experience and observation has been that even the most rabid low rep / high set pler's are usually doing at least some 6's or 8's at some point in thier cycles and at any point in time may be repping some 12's to &quot;rehab&quot; some joint issues , this fits mikeynovs statements - although it would tend to indicate that the 12's you were doing to &quot;give your shoulders a break&quot; may be just as vital to the overall picture as the triples that were getting all the credit . Cool stuff as usual mikeynov
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(Aaron_F @ Aug. 25 2008,3:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mikey is all about teh abs, so he can look buff at the gay beach club.</div>
You are so mean.
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(Joe.Muscle @ Aug. 16 2008,9:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Glad to see you here Mikey.

I have took some time off from the forum as well and even to lifting...except fullbody once to twice a week.

I have been playing a ton of golf and now its time to get back in the gym to help the golf game / golf body...so your thread will be one I follow constantly!</div>
you play golf?

next you'll be extolling zero carb diets, if you know what I mean ;)

j/k hahah!
 
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(scientific muscle @ Aug. 26 2008,2:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Aaron_F @ Aug. 25 2008,3:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mikey is all about teh abs, so he can look buff at the gay beach club.</div>
You are so mean.
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</div>
if I had the homo abs, I would hang out there as well
 
SST

Deadlifts

Experimented a little more with form. I think I've discovered that just &quot;pulling&quot; the bar from the floor doesn't feel entirely right.

I actually think more about my arms being hooks and sort of leg pressing the floor away from me while &quot;anchoring&quot; my back position initially to start. This seems to work better.

Anyways, warmed up to 335 for a single (20 lbs over my intended working weight, a pattern I'm using in general now), then backed off to 2 sets of 315 for 5.

The first set I wore an unstrapped belt, which seemed to help for reasons unknown. Second set no belt, and this was a little tougher.

Strict Press

Warmed up to 145 for a single, and then backed down to 125 for a set of 6 reps.

Cable Rows

180 for a set of 5 here. I'm thinking I should just use the Hammer Row. Or, hell, maybe I'll suck it up and use barbell rows.

HST

Leg Press + Leg Curls + Calf Raise

6 plates + 10 lbs per side for a set of 10 done without rest between reps in the leg press.

10 total reps at home on the leg curl attached to my bench (forgot to do it at the gym). I overestimated here and had to do 8 + 1 + 1. Whatever.

3 plates + 10 lbs per side for a set of 10 reps, and then another 15 bottom half reps afterwards for calf raises in the leg press.

DB Incline Bench + Dips

65's for a set of 10 in DB incline bench.

Me + 55 lbs for a set of 10 in dips.

Hammer Iso Row + Pullover Machine

1 plate + 35 lbs per side for a set of 10 in rows.

Warmed up and then 125 for a set of 10 in pullovers. I actually positioned it such that I could truly &quot;push through my elbows,&quot; not really holding on with my hands. I did arguably feel this in my lats more, particularly when locking it out.

Seated DB Curls

37.5s for a set of 10 reps.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Deadlifts

Experimented a little more with form. I think I've discovered that just &quot;pulling&quot; the bar from the floor doesn't feel entirely right.

I actually think more about my arms being hooks and sort of leg pressing the floor away from me while &quot;anchoring&quot; my back position initially to start. This seems to work better.</div>

I've always done it this way. My legs get more involved than anything else during a deadlift, so it seemed natural to me from the start.
 
Fatigue is definitely catching up to me again, but my strength is still decent.

SST

Squats

Warmed up to 275 for a single, and then back down to 255 for a set of 5. Reasonably difficult.

Bench

Warmed up to 235 for a paused single, then back down to 215 for a set of 5, first rep paused. Also reasonably difficult.

Chins

115 for a single, and then me + 97.5 for a set of ~5. The last rep was borderline, with my chin JUST getting over the bar. Normal people would certainly count it
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HST

Leg Press + Calf Raises + Leg Curls

Leg Press - Warmed up to 6 plates + 25 lbs per side for a set of 10, done without rest between reps.

Calf Raises - 3 plates + 25 lbs per side for a set of 10, then ~15 mini-reps in the bottom half. I think I've actually seen some visual difference in my calves lately, at least in terms of vascularity, so it's possible this is actually working.

Leg Curls - 150 for a set of 10 with brief pauses at both ends.

Hammer Iso Row + Machine Pullover

Hammer Row - 165 for a set of 10.

Machine Pullover - 140 for a set of 10.

DB Incline Bench + Dips + Curls

DB Incline Bench - 67.5's for a set of 10 reps.

Dips - Me + 60 lbs for a set of 10 reps.

Seated DB Curls - 40's for a set of 10 reps.
 
Modified Rest-Pause and &quot;HST 2.0&quot;

At Lyle's board, a bunch of us labcoats had a pretty fascinating discussion about the idea of &quot;modified rest pause.&quot;

This arose (independently invented by at least me and Blade separately, possibly Ron/NWLifter, too) out of experiments arising from fatigue management/clustering methods ala max-stim.

The principle, basically, is to do a series of rest/pause sets in which your guideline to terminate the set you are in is a noticeable decrease in movement speed from one rep to the next. Some arbitrary time is picked (e.g. 15-30 seconds) in which you rest between bouts of these &quot;mini-sets&quot; until a prescribed number of reps have been hit.

Here's the description I gave on Lyle's board about the variation I experimented with:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Take a reasonable weight (something between, say, 5-15 RM):

* Perform repetitions until movement speed noticeably slows down, never risking failure
* Rest 30 seconds (or, to make things really simple, take 12-15 deep breaths ala DC training)
* Repeat the above sequence until a prescribed number of reps (10, 12, 15, 20, whatever) have been hit. If you want a good guideline, doubling the # of reps of whatever RM it is seems useful. E.g. 10 reps with a 5 RM, 20 reps with a 10 RM, etc.

Possible sequence using ~10 RM:

7 reps
30 seconds
5 reps
30 seconds
3 reps
30 seconds
3 reps
30 seconds
2 reps = 20 total reps</div>

Blade has taken this idea even further and has been using load intensification cycles ala HST using this principle.

The idea here is that you can, theoretically, greatly increase the acute stimulus by doing all this work in a relatively short time period, but proactively stopping using movement speed as a guideline becomes a means of avoiding overtraining.

What's neat about this method is that it might solve one of the dilemmas of HST, imho, which is insufficient acute stimulus to drive gains past some point on a full body split. I.e. an inability to do &quot;enough&quot; to grow acutely on a session per session basis.

As such, I have been giving thought to an HST 2.0 - same old principles, slightly modified methodology.

The way this would work would be as such:

* SD as normal
* Optionally (encouraged), the cycle is started in the standard HST format using a block of 2 weeks of 15's. This serves both to condition our tissues for the heavier loads to come, and serves as a break-in to increase our volition strength before we embark on the modified rest pause.
* Starting with the third week, approximately ~6 weeks of this modified rest/pause method are used scaling from 15 RM (~65% 1 RM) to 5 RM (~85% 1 RM). I think a good, default number of total reps would be 20, which is what Dan uses for Max-Stim.
* It is my opinion that, as loads get very high (~5-8 RM), doing 20 total reps as part of one huge set with only ~30 seconds rest between mini-sets might become problematic from a recovery point of view. I.e. training into/near failure too much towards the end of the mega-set.

As such, I think a useful guideline would be to use no more than 5 total &quot;mini-sets&quot; at any given time. If you have not completed your prescribed number of reps, no sweat - just rest a few minutes as if the mini-sets represented one &quot;normal&quot; set, and do another series of up to 5 mini-sets.

I would guess 2 such series would be enough all the way up to ~5 RM to squeeze in 20 total reps.

If anyone wanted hard numbers as to what the %'s of 1 RM would look like starting at the beginning of week 3, it might be something like this:

Week 3
65
66.25
67.5

Week 4
68.75
70
71.25

Week 5
72.5
73.75
75

Week 6
76.25
77.5
78.75

Week 7
80
81.25
82.5

Week 8
83.75
85
86.25

Week 9 - SD

Default, encouraged exercises:

* Knee extension dominant lower body (high bar squat, leg press)
* Hip extension dominant lower body (low bar squat, SLDL, RDL)
* Calves (any calf raise variant, donkeys would probably be most useful)

* Vertical push (any seated or standing shoulder press)
* Vertical pull (lat pulldowns, chins, pullups)
* Horizontal Push (bench variants, dips)
* Horizontal Pull (row variants)

* Biceps
* Triceps

As a thought, though, I'm not sure we'd need to use the modified rest/pause on calves, biceps, or triceps unless one of these were a weak point for the individual. These could probably be done using &quot;conventional&quot; sets.
 
HIT 2.0

Seriously. This isn't a joke!

For people who want an even simpler template, use the exercises above and the modified rest/pause described in the previous post. We're going to create a &quot;double progression&quot; method to make an improved HIT-esque routine.

2-3 times a week:

* Select a ~10-12 RM weight initially for each of the above lifts.
* Use the modified rest/pause technique described previously, attempting to reach 20 total reps.
* If you can perform the 20 total reps in 5-minisets or fewer, increase the weight by some small increment the next time you lift. If you are going to risk failure, ONLY risk failure the very last mini-set if you have a chance in that mini-set of hitting your prescribed rep count.

Note that this would replace the &quot;usual&quot; 8-12 double progression, Darden/Jones style HIT.

Of course, other variants could certainly be created using the guidelines I posted previously. As an example, you could still do 12 total reps, but with a ~6 RM. Lots of possibilities.
 
Mike:

Any reason you would favor mini sets over straight max-stim singles with M time and more symmetrical distribution of the repetitions?

Is the driving assumption still that the fatigue that inhibits using greater weight/load primarily metabolic, and thus not conducive to hypertrophy?
 
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(beingisbeing @ Aug. 29 2008,6:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mike:

Any reason you would favor mini sets over straight max-stim singles with M time and more symmetrical distribution of the repetitions?

Is the driving assumption still that the fatigue that inhibits using greater weight/load primarily metabolic, and thus not conducive to hypertrophy?</div>
Well, the long and short answer is that, really, modified rest pause seems the more promising candidate because the person who has tested it the most in himself/others, Blade, seems to be seeing more results with this than variable m-time cluster training.

Density seems like an important factor in training efficacy (if for no other reason than it accounts for a lot of varied anecdote), and while it's possible to use high density in max-stim type training with rests between every rep, this seems a more straightforward means of doing so.
 
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