An old viking's new HST workout, comments are very welcome

[Ulfhednin]

Hi, first post here for me so a quick introduction is in order I think
I'm 34 years old, a so-called hardgainer and I've been working out on and off for most of my adult life but with so little gains I've always lost motivation after 6 months-1 year.
About a year ago I sat down and did my research before starting to work out again and this time for real. So a couple of things I figured out right away was:
-I don't eat enough, especially protein
-I've been following the standard fail-workout with focus on biceps and pecs and all upperbody (i know)
-I've never done squats (enough said)
-I've never used creatine

So with these revelations I've now done 5 HST cycles rectifying all the points mentioned above. Weight wise I went from 81 kg (178lbs) to 78 kg (171lbs) the first 2 weeks shredding off fat (yeah I have a good metabolism) and I'm now at 88kg (194lbs) after a year. Needless to say, I'm a devoted fan of HST and very happy that I discovered what appears to be the right workout for me. I've gotten very good gains both strength and muscle and not much fat on me.

Here's the routine I've followed 15-10-5 for two weeks each and then 2 weeks of 5 reps before my 9 days of DC, working out every other day (mon-wed-fri):
2xSquats/Leg press
2xBP/Inclined DB press
2xPull ups
2xMP
2xCalf press
1xDB Shrugs
1xBiceps curls/Hammer curls
1-2xDips
2xWrist rolls
5 min core

But this time (6th cycle) I wanted to change it up a little and did some minor alterations, now my fear is that in my vanity I've added too many exercises, take a look:
I'm doing 15-12-10-8-5 one week each except 5's which is two weeks, then two weeks on max and then 9 days DC
2-3xSquats
2xBP
2xChins
2xMP
2xCalf press
2xCable row
1-2xDips
1xDB Shrugs
2xIncline flys
2xOne leg Kickback (this exercise, like my core, is for my bad lower back - recently diagnosed as scheuermann's)
2xBiceps curls/Hammer curls
2xLying leg curl
10 min core

Reason I don't have Deadlift or bent over barbell row is that it causes pain in my lower back. I'm doing squats but I do feel some pressure on it as well so I might eventually change it out with leg press.
Not sure about my maxes this time around but my upper body strength is much higher compared to lower body due to earlier neglection of correct workout, but it's changing by the day.

Anyhow, is this too many exercises? I read somewhere 8-12 and this is now 12 (not counting core) but it is my 6th cycle so I feel I can handle it. I've seen some of the logs for the members here and it looks like most people have much fewer exercises.

 

[gbglifter]

First of all, hej Ulf och välkommen!

The general concensus here is to simplify things. Personally, I like to keep to as few exercises as possible. What usually steers how much I do is how hard I feel it taxes my CNS when doing the heavier cycles. There is no way I could handle 12 exercises when Im doing 4´s and heavier without burning out. You´re the only person than can tell if you´re doing too much, really.
How do you feel during the heavier cycles? It seems you´re SDing quite regularly so you might be taking that break exactly at the right time.

Regarding your lower back pain: do you know how you injured it? Have you done anything specific? It sounds like you need to build up strength in your lower back(and core). Which core exercises are you doing? I injured my lower back a few years ago (whilst squatting) and had pain for over a year. Naprapath treatment helped for the moment but what sorted it out completely was actually participating in a class at my gym called “core-ball”. A variant of the standard core class, whereby a pilates-type ball was used to support lower back while lower back, obliques, abs and hamstrings were trained. Sorted it out within a few weeks. Now its completely recovered. Just a thought.

 

[_tim]

You've enjoyed tremendous success thus far using HST, and your original template looks great. I agree with gbglifter that only you can tell whether this is too much. Yes, the consensus here is to simplify - but in the same vein there are quite a few folks who apply the principles of HST without using the template. If the increase in lifts is something you want to do, do it. Just be very attentive to the way your body responds.

 

[Totentanz]

I wouldn't bother doing flies as part of an HST cycle. They are good for metabolic work later on when it gets heavy but for a lift that you will progressing... well, flies are not optimal. Shrugs are better off with a BB than a DB - less chance that you will do something bad like roll your shoulders and you can progress the load up much higher. Is your doctor one who is knowledgeable about lifting? Deadlifts, if you could incorporate them, and did not go crazy, can significantly strengthen the lower back when done right.

 

[Jester]

Scheuermann's is a fairly serious diagnosis - is it confirmed? Significant spinal curvature etc? It's not something you 'acquire', as I understand it, rather something that naturally develops as you progress through growing up and up etc.

 

[Ulfhednin]

Wow, thanks for the response guys, I was expecting no real interest in my post so I'm liking you HST forumites already!

First of all, hej Ulf och välkommen!

The general concensus here is to simplify things. Personally, I like to keep to as few exercises as possible. What usually steers how much I do is how hard I feel it taxes my CNS when doing the heavier cycles. There is no way I could handle 12 exercises when Im doing 4´s and heavier without burning out. You´re the only person than can tell if you´re doing too much, really.
How do you feel during the heavier cycles? It seems you´re SDing quite regularly so you might be taking that break exactly at the right time.

Takk skal du ha gbglifter!
When I'm hitting my max 5 reps it gets pretty heavy but usually not too hard on my CNS... I think. Although after my 4th exercise I've found I need a "break" hence the calf press. I also need longer pauses between sets at the heavier loads but I suppose this is quite normal.

You've enjoyed tremendous success thus far using HST, and your original template looks great. I agree with gbglifter that only you can tell whether this is too much. Yes, the consensus here is to simplify - but in the same vein there are quite a few folks who apply the principles of HST without using the template. If the increase in lifts is something you want to do, do it. Just be very attentive to the way your body responds.

I wouldn't bother doing flies as part of an HST cycle. They are good for metabolic work later on when it gets heavy but for a lift that you will progressing... well, flies are not optimal. Shrugs are better off with a BB than a DB - less chance that you will do something bad like roll your shoulders and you can progress the load up much higher.

Thanks for your feedback. Flies I've already noticed I won't be increasing much it was more the vain need of getting a bigger chest that lead to this addition Your logic is good and it will be the first exercise I remove if I start to feel it's too many exercises in my routine. BB shrugs, ok, do you hold the bar behind or infront of you (from what I can find out - infront seems the natural choice)? I agree with the progressive load logic here as well. I'll work out today and change it up then.

Regarding your lower back pain: do you know how you injured it? Have you done anything specific? It sounds like you need to build up strength in your lower back(and core). Which core exercises are you doing? I injured my lower back a few years ago (whilst squatting) and had pain for over a year. Naprapath treatment helped for the moment but what sorted it out completely was actually participating in a class at my gym called “core-ball”. A variant of the standard core class, whereby a pilates-type ball was used to support lower back while lower back, obliques, abs and hamstrings were trained. Sorted it out within a few weeks. Now its completely recovered. Just a thought.

Is your doctor one who is knowledgeable about lifting? Deadlifts, if you could incorporate them, and did not go crazy, can significantly strengthen the lower back when done right.

Scheuermann's is a fairly serious diagnosis - is it confirmed? Significant spinal curvature etc? It's not something you 'acquire', as I understand it, rather something that naturally develops as you progress through growing up and up etc.

My backpain started about 2 years ago before starting on HST or heavy workouts for a year or two. It started suddenly after I'd been sitting still for 15 hours+ (aircrew operational flight) and then had to lift and carry a heavy bag. It's a muscle pain as painkillers will remove it so I do 10 days painkillers a couple of times a year just to get a break from it. I took an X-ray and the doc found nothing, then finally an MRI a month ago and they found a slight curvature in my lower back (only). My posture is good and I don't hunch or anything so both me and my physiotherapist was surprised about the diagnose, Scheuermanns is also supposed to set in at late teens if I've hit those when I'm 32 I'm a slow guy . I've also been to an osteopath and a Chiropractor before the diagnosis and they've had different theories and solutions from shoes, stretches, exercises etc. So far nothing works much although lower back exercises and core workouts warms up my muscles and therefore removes the pain but only for a short while.

@Totentanz - The doctor knows nothing about lifting but what I've looked up on the all-knowing internet scheuermanns diagnosed people shouldn't do those exercises, and when I do that forward bend (with a straight back) it causes a sharp pain in my back and whenever I try deadlifts I'm forced to work with very light weights and it still is painful and remains so for a couple of days. I've close to never done deadlifts before so my technique is probably faulty but I've tried to do some good research and watched videos and instructions to do it right.
@gbglifter - I'll look into this core-ball thing to see if this will work for me. Thank you very much for a possible solution to my back problems. My current core exercises in addition to kickbacks are situps, sidesitups, plank and sideplank. I sometimes mix it up a bit (since I don't follow a HST program for my core which I find impossible) and do kneeling cable crunches, air plunges and weighted hyperextentions. Today I want to try Hanging Oblique Pendulum for kicks.

 

[Jester]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it isn't Scheuermann's. I would absolutely get another opinion. Scheuermann's is a developmental-age disease, and is not muscular; it's skeletal as far as I understand it. Not to say that you don't have pain etc, rather that something else is the cause.

 

[Ulfhednin]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it isn't Scheuermann's. I would absolutely get another opinion. Scheuermann's is a developmental-age disease, and is not muscular; it's skeletal as far as I understand it. Not to say that you don't have pain etc, rather that something else is the cause.

The thought has occured to me too so I will get a second opinion as soon as possible. Though the doctor seemed quite convinced by the MRI pictures.

Here's today's workout, fourth day of 5s so still increasing:
2xSquats 100 kg (220lbs)
2xBP 95 kg (209lbs)
2xChins BW +10kg (22lbs)
2xStanding military press 72,5 kg (159,5lbs)
2xCalf press 185 kg (407lbs)
2xCable row 80 kg (176lbs)
2xDips BW+20 kg (44lbs)
2xBB Shrugs 50 kg (110lbs) then 70 kg (154lbs)
2xOne leg Kickback 25 kg (55lbs)
2xBiceps curls/Hammer curls 22,5kg (49,5lbs)
2xLying leg curl 35kg (77lbs)
2xSide bends /w 15 kg (33lbs) and 20 kg (44lbs)
10 min core

So I tried the suggestions from Totentanz and removed the flies and switched to BB shrugs which was a nice surprise actually. I always hate lifting the 40 kg + dumbbells from the lower rack and using barbell was MUCH easier on my back. I started with 50 kg to try out the technique and then increased to 70 but I will be able to keep increasing quite a bit in this exercise I think.
Not sure but I guess you can notice the upper body-lower body difference in strength here: my Squats aren't very high and I've just started to add the lying leg curl so I hope to rectify the situation as I believe it is the way to reach my 90 kg bodyweight goal. My last cycle my BP was continously higher than squat so I hope I'll change it this cycle. (Because of my backproblems I've tried alternating squats with leg press but I found it a poor substitute) Today I learned how much more efficient it is to do Squat while gripping the bar thight and clenching my core harder than usual - no back pain at all!

 

[Ulfhednin]

Here's yesterday's workout on 5 reps (except calf press and shrugs which I use 15 reps for):
2xSquats 105 kg
2xBP 100 kg
2xChins BW +12,5kg
2xStanding military press 72,5 kg
2xCalf press 190 kg
2xCable row 85 kg
1xDips BW+25 kg
1xBB Shrugs 80 kg
2xOne leg Kickback 25 kg
2xBiceps curls/Hammer curls 25kg
2xLying leg curl 40kg
5 min core

I've already maxed out standing military press I believe but the rest is progressing fine.

 

[Ulfhednin]

Today's workout on 5 reps (except calf press and shrugs which I use 15 reps for):
2xSquats 105 kg
2xBP 105 kg
2xChins BW +15kg
2xStanding military press 72,5 kg
2xCalf press 195 kg
2xCable row 90 kg
1xDips BW+30 kg
1xBB Shrugs 85 kg
2xOne leg Kickback 25 kg
2xBiceps curls/Hammer curls 27,5 kg
2xLying leg curl 45kg
10 min core

So after looking around the internet a bit and watching yo Elliot! youtube movies I decided to try and replace my back squat with front squat. Never having tried front squats before I reconned it would be quite similar to back squats in load. So I did my warm up sets (BB only x 15 twice, then 40 kg x 5, 60 kg x 5, 80 kg x 5 which worked out fine. Surprising me with no lower back pain unlike my backsquats. Though I did fear I would be having problems on 100kg... which I did - horrible form to be able to survive with my "dignity" intact and get up on my own. Changed the load to 105 kg and did 2 sets of backsquats - again a pressure/pain in my lower back.
Although not true to the HST principle of increasing in weight for every workout, I've decided to learn how to master the front squat and completely ditch the backsquat because of my lower back. Next workout I will reduce the weight and focus on technique which I need to work on before trying the heavy loads again.

 

[Ulfhednin]

Workout today:

2xFront Squats 85 kg
2xBP 110 kg*
2xChins BW +17,5 kg*
2xBent over seated rear dumbell raise 7,5 kg
2xCalf press 200 kg*
2xCable row 95 kg*
1xDips BW+35 kg
2xBB Shrugs 60 kg
2xOne leg Kickback 25 kg
2xBiceps curls/Hammer curls 27,5 kg*
2xLying leg curl 45kg*
10 min core

*Max
So I've hit max in most of my exercises and will maintain the weight for 2 weeks. The rest I will keep increasing. The Front squat is noticably weak due to technique as I don't really get tired in my Quads by doing them. Will keep increasing it slowly and do plenty of warmup to allow for a better technique. Nevertheless, it is MUCH better on my lower back than squats - a huge difference really.

I'm happy about the progression of this cycle. So far I've gone up 2 kg's (closing in on my 90 kg BW goal), my benchpress is better than ever with a new PR of using 110 kg (242 lbs) as workout weight - my old 1RM BP is 115 kg so I believe I'll be able to top that this time around . Not that I should care too much about how heavy I lift but it's easier to measure progression in weight than muscle size - espesially since I never measure size.

 

[arooba786]

its too much buddy

 

[Ulfhednin]

its too much buddy

I've gotten the same impression, especially after reading the Simplify and win thread.

The thing is when I see these 4 exercise programs, e.g:

Deadlift
Benchpress
Chins
Standing military press

it covers the big, compound movements but following the HST's rule of "HST suggests that you limit the number of sets per exercise per workout to 1 or 2" this would cause my workout to barely last for 30 minutes. Furthermore it seems like these simple programs does a higher amount of sets than Brian recommends for HST. Now, being a HST noob on this site (and in general), I figure I'm probably not understanding something crucial. I understand the need for few exercises for a 5x5 program because of the sheer number of sets will lead to exhaustion as well as taking a lot of time with all the pauses, but I thought that is a different workout routine alltogether? Is it ok to do more than 2 sets per exercise?
Can anyone please explain to me what I'm not understanding? (I'm not being difficult or stubborn about having many exercises, I'm really not getting it )

 

[Jester]

2xBent over seated rear dumbell raise 7,5 kg
2xBiceps curls/Hammer curls 27,5 kg*
10 min core

Cut these, add in a set on the rows.

 

[Totentanz]

I've gotten the same impression, especially after reading the Simplify and win thread.

The thing is when I see these 4 exercise programs, e.g:

Deadlift
Benchpress
Chins
Standing military press

it covers the big, compound movements but following the HST's rule of "HST suggests that you limit the number of sets per exercise per workout to 1 or 2" this would cause my workout to barely last for 30 minutes. Furthermore it seems like these simple programs does a higher amount of sets than Brian recommends for HST. Now, being a HST noob on this site (and in general), I figure I'm probably not understanding something crucial. I understand the need for few exercises for a 5x5 program because of the sheer number of sets will lead to exhaustion as well as taking a lot of time with all the pauses, but I thought that is a different workout routine alltogether? Is it ok to do more than 2 sets per exercise?
Can anyone please explain to me what I'm not understanding? (I'm not being difficult or stubborn about having many exercises, I'm really not getting it )

You seem to be confusing the words "rule" and "suggestion."

HST suggests that you limit the number of sets per exercise per workout to 1 or 2

Volume must be set appropriate to the individual. Fewer exercises require more sets than doing more exercises with only 1 or 2 sets.

Why does it matter if your workouts would be done in 30 minutes? Isn't the effectiveness of the routine what matters, not how long it has you in the gym?

However, I see nothing wrong with using up to 8 exercises in a routine.

 

[Ulfhednin]

Cut these, add in a set on the rows.

I'm usually not doing Bent over seated rear dumbell raises, it was just a temporary replacement for standing military press due to tiredness after my benchpress.
The Biceps curls/Hammer curls I know is not needed since I do chins and rows but I have the energy still to squeeze it in there so I thought; why not. I like your suggestion though - to instead add a set to rows.
My core training is only there due to my bad back and as soon (if ever) as I get better I will probably skip core for deadlifts.

You seem to be confusing the words "rule" and "suggestion."

Volume must be set appropriate to the individual. Fewer exercises require more sets than doing more exercises with only 1 or 2 sets.

However, I see nothing wrong with using up to 8 exercises in a routine.

So would this routine (ABABAB) work better for muscle growth with 3 sets than what I've been doing 'till now?
Routine A
Front squat
Benchpress
Chins
Standing overhead press
Calf press
BB Shrugs
5 min core

Routine B
Leg press
Incline Bench
Dips
Leg curls
Seated narrow grip row
Calf press
5 min core

Why does it matter if your workouts would be done in 30 minutes? Isn't the effectiveness of the routine what matters, not how long it has you in the gym?

It is indeed the effectiveness that counts, not time spent in the gym. I'm actually already proving this when most of my friends have these weird split routines that takes them forever, throwing in plenty of cardio on top of it but barely notice gains. However, I feel (though my feelings shouldn't control this) working out for only 1,5 hours a week is insufficient for optimal muscle growth. Even my current 3 hours a week seems like it should have been more.

 

[gbglifter]

My first workouts of each cycle barely take 20-25 minutes. The final workouts take at most one hour. I know Im able to give each muscle enough load in this time and progress it (the load) right through the entire cycle. I have however been cutting for Three months, but I cant see me changing what obviously works even when I start eating more. My workmate and I train at the same gym. We started at the same time. He was only doing shoulders yesterday(idiot) and when I was finished and ready to go get changed he was only half way through.

 

[Totentanz]

So would this routine (ABABAB) work better for muscle growth with 3 sets than what I've been doing 'till now?
Routine A
Front squat
Benchpress
Chins
Standing overhead press
Calf press
BB Shrugs
5 min core

Routine B
Leg press
Incline Bench
Dips
Leg curls
Seated narrow grip row
Calf press
5 min core

That routine looks fine. You could throw in some arm work if you really really need to. If you did, I would only do biceps one workout and triceps the other, not both in the same workout.

It is indeed the effectiveness that counts, not time spent in the gym. I'm actually already proving this when most of my friends have these weird split routines that takes them forever, throwing in plenty of cardio on top of it but barely notice gains. However, I feel (though my feelings shouldn't control this) working out for only 1,5 hours a week is insufficient for optimal muscle growth. Even my current 3 hours a week seems like it should have been more.

As you already figured out, your feelings don't matter, your feelings don't have a role in muscle growth. How long your workout lasts does not have a role in muscle growth, so assuming you have a good routine and adequate diet, then the length of time you spend in the gym won't be more or less optimal for muscle growth. As gbglifter pointed out, even if you think a routine is short, it will get longer in the 5s.

 

[Ulfhednin]

Today's workout:

3xFront squat 80 kg
3xBenchpress 110 kg
3xChins BW +17,5 kg
2xCalf press 200 kg
3xStanding overhead press 70 kg
2xBB Shrugs 70 kg
5 min core

So I added an extra set while removing several exercises. Overall workout took longer than usual (more than an hour) but I'm pretty satisfied with my workout performance. I actually started a workout yesterday but it failed so miserably with tweaking a back muscle, unrested and stressed for timing so I got up and quit after only 10 minutes, lol. Much better today though.

 

[Ulfhednin]

For today's workout I did a light cardio 20 min and core training for about 30 min since I cut back on my core during my weight training