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[Jester]

You won't get resensitisation to previous 5RM loads - there's too much tension there.

What you will (hopefully) get is a new 5RM as per usual, and then when you re-start the reduced CNS strain will enable you to rinse & repeat. The method you've described is basically how Lyle McDonald recommends bulking cycles be conducted; mild deloading as opposed to wholesale deconditioning.

 

[Bulldog]

Yes, that is my main concern... seems like almost every winter, something comes up that screws up my plans. If I can get through three cycles without something happening, I will be extremely happy.

Another struggle for me at this point is eating enough. I really struggle to add on more weight once I get over 240 lbs and I still haven't managed to really exceed 250. I'm hoping this time around will be different.

Might be worth noting that I will be starting up creatine soon.

I know the supplement companies recommend "loading" creating for a week or so but I know that isn't really necessary. But does it need to be taken every day or only on training days? What's the best approach?

 

[Jester]

5g a day, everyday, forever. In water or whatever.

 

[HST_Rihad]

You won't get resensitisation to previous 5RM loads - there's too much tension there.

What you will (hopefully) get is a new 5RM as per usual, and then when you re-start the reduced CNS strain will enable you to rinse & repeat. The method you've described is basically how Lyle McDonald recommends bulking cycles be conducted; mild deloading as opposed to wholesale deconditioning.

Yeah, Lyle has this de-loading built in his Generic Bulk. It just seems more appropriate not to end the cycle while I'm on a cut anyway. I tried this 2-week de-load only in inclined bench press during my previous cutting cycle, and gained another rep in the end (went from 5RM to 6RM with the same load).

I'll also try combining their ideas when I finally stop cutting in the future: extend my 5's cycle by doing one or two such 2 week deloads + 2 week 5RM work, up to 8 weeks extra work total. 5RM's will work for hypertrophy for quite some time (according to HST), and I'll try to coax out some more growth with the mild deconditioning and CNS recovery going on (considering six 5% deload steps: 70-75-80-85-90-95, that's two weeks, and wham, another 100% 17 days later.

This can be considered a zig-zag taken to its extremes.

 

[Totentanz]

I know the supplement companies recommend "loading" creating for a week or so but I know that isn't really necessary. But does it need to be taken every day or only on training days? What's the best approach?

You get creatine from your diet anyway, so it's unlikely that loading is necessary. I'm not convinced that such excessive consumption of creatine is ideal or necessarily healthy anyway. I prefer to just go with 5g a day. Eventually you get to saturation anyway and the excess is pissed out. It's up to you whether you take it every day or just on training days. Every day is probably ideal. To be honest, I typically add it to my preworkout and so I only end up taking it on training days. I eat a lot of meat and other foods that have creatine in it anyway, so I figure I'm staying fairly topped off on it regardless.

 

[Totentanz]

Yeah, Lyle has this de-loading built in his Generic Bulk. It just seems more appropriate not to end the cycle while I'm on a cut anyway. I tried this 2-week de-load only in inclined bench press during my previous cutting cycle, and gained another rep in the end (went from 5RM to 6RM with the same load).

I'll also try combining their ideas when I finally stop cutting in the future: extend my 5's cycle by doing one or two such 2 week deloads + 2 week 5RM work, up to 8 weeks extra work total. 5RM's will work for hypertrophy for quite some time (according to HST), and I'll try to coax out some more growth with the mild deconditioning and CNS recovery going on (considering six 5% deload steps: 70-75-80-85-90-95, that's two weeks, and wham, another 100% 17 days later.

This can be considered a zig-zag taken to its extremes.

I feel that you can safely go back to 80% of your 10 RM without risking significant muscle loss. Remember that the stimlus necessary to maintain muscle is less than what is necessary to build muscle. So while on a cut, if you need a break from the 5s, it is safe to go back into the second week of 10s or whatever. You could even do 8s if you wanted. Or you can start the 5s back over too if you want. Since you probably won't be getting significant growth, it doesn't really matter to get as deconditioned as you would prior to a mass gain cycle.
I would not SD on a cut unless you are feeling beaten up or need to take a break from the lowered calories. And obviously if you did SD, you'd want to eat at maintenance during that time.

 

[HST_Rihad]

I feel that you can safely go back to 80% of your 10 RM without risking significant muscle loss. Remember that the stimlus necessary to maintain muscle is less than what is necessary to build muscle.

I always thought it was volume that could be brought down during cutting, but load had to be sufficient for maintaining, i.e. stay the same. See this note by Lyle.

The basic conclusion, again from both research and practical experience is that both volume and frequency of training can usually be cut by up to 2/3rds (that is, to 1/3rd of what you did to improve it) but with one massively important caveat: the intensity of that training must be maintained.

And obviously if you did SD, you'd want to eat at maintenance during that time.

When on SD I actually get away with eating roughly the same amount of food, because daily caloric expenditure no longer includes training overhead (elevated protein resynthesis etc.), hence I actually eat roughly at maintenance than cutting calories when training. Lyle wrote about this phenomenon here:

Weight training is a different story entirely. Studies have shown that properly done weight training can raise RMR by quite a bit for anywhere from 24-36 hours. One recent study, using a mere 12 sets measured a total caloric burn of 700 calories over baseline in the two days after the workout. This can add up quickly.

p.s.: no, I'm not one of Lyle's zealots regarding his theories, he just sums up some of the research info nicely.

 

[Jester]

I think there's a substantial gap between the theory being discussed here and the application of this theory. What time frame are we talking about? Weeks? You aren't (essentially) fasting away LBM of any significant amount over that time period, whether you do nothing, 80% of 10RM, 5's range, 15s.

When you're cutting: retain high loads, reduce volume. You don't need excessive energy expenditure from the training, all you need is sufficient stimulus to keep homestatic balance of anabolism and catabolism where it is (or as close as you can make it).

I've successfully cut on 4-6 reps at 5RM, per exercise. It's not fun from a psychological standpoint, but from an energy-management perspective it's easiest and assists in managing your diet; the cravings are drastically reduced.

 

[HST_Rihad]

Yup, I have no fear of dropping 5's loads to 70% and building back up in 2 weeks, at least not any more than taking complete SD. I usually do 1-2 sets now during cutting (plus some higher rep work), so when I drop to 70% I'll increase sets to 3 to try to compensate the reduced load a bit.

 

[Jester]

You don't need that 3rd set. If you're cutting, you REALLY don't need (or want) that 3rd set.

 

[HST_Rihad]

I don't do that 3rd set (during a cut) when going back from SD and following the usual ramp-up, because 2 sets seem to be sufficient. But having been conditioned to 5RMs for a few weeks AND dropping the load to 70% is another story - there you're already conditioned to both loads and volume and everything. Speaking of which, I might not choose to do the 3rd set if it feels 2 much (pun intended). I'll play it by ear.

 

[Jester]

I really should articulate my thoughts in a more coherent and comprehensive post at some point in time (load, volume, hypertrophy, adaptations, SD, deloading etc.), but given I CBF'd right now, I'll just say that the 3rd set is not going to be useful and if your aim is to a) deload, and arguably should also include --> b) recuperate/reserve/reestablish/restore maximal CNS function, then you're much better off with two sets only. Or 9-12 reps rather than 15 reps.

 

[HST_Rihad]

The idea of trying 3 sets after a de-load isn't to squeeze out some growth or anything, just an effort to counter-measure the sudden acute drop of loads, nothing else. It wouldn't hamper recovery by any measurable amount if done during the first week of de-load (70-75-80%), but would be more likely to ensure adequate response in face of decreased load. Just my opinion, though. 1-2 sets may just as well be enough.

 

[gbglifter]

cutting/

Whilst cutting I just jumped between the 8's and the 4's. 2 weeks of 8's with One set per exercise. Then 2 weeks of 4's with two sets per exercise. The ocassional metabolic work. That was all that took to maintain mass and even allowed for a whopping strength increase during that time.

 

[Totentanz]

I always thought it was volume that could be brought down during cutting, but load had to be sufficient for maintaining, i.e. stay the same. See this note by Lyle.

You'll note that I said that the load still had to be enough to maintain muscle mass. Yes, you have to go "heavy" but realize that what normal people consider heavy (i.e. typical bodybuilders who think "going heavy" means using something they can do for 12 reps) is different than what we consider heavy.

When on SD I actually get away with eating roughly the same amount of food, because daily caloric expenditure no longer includes training overhead (elevated protein resynthesis etc.), hence I actually eat roughly at maintenance than cutting calories when training. Lyle wrote about this phenomenon here:

You'd likely be better off bumping the calories up a bit back toward your old maintenance to act like a refeed. You've read enough of Lyle's stuff to know about the metabolic slowdown that occurs after periods of low calories. Refeeds are an important part of dieting.

 

[HST_Rihad]

Regarding metabolic slowdown: I may be totally wrong on this, but I take the feeling of hunger, or more precisely almost complete lack of it throughout a day to mean that my ghrelin levels are low, hence leptin is likely high enough for no metabolic slowdown to occur.

 

[Totentanz]

That's not the best way to be tracking that.

You would be much better off taking your temperature upon waking each morning and when it drops significantly compared to baseline, then you know you need a refeed.

 

[Totentanz]

The new location I'm working at has a lot of problems that are probably going to take me another couple months to turn around. Kinda sucks because I thought it was going to be better than it was but once I got in there and started digging, turns out the previous guy wasn't doing a lot of stuff he was supposed to. Oh well, that's why I get paid... to go in and fix broken places for the company. I did get a talking to from the higher ups about not being so aggressive with the changes this time around and to take it slower since they don't want to turnover as many employees as we did at the last place. I agreed but had my fingers crossed behind my back. I don't believe in keeping weak links and dead weight around. I most especially dislike employees, especially management, who cannot adapt and want to maintain the current status quo. In my opinion, maintaining the status quo is basically a synonym for stagnation.

Moral of the story is that I haven't been able to eat enough, weight is down to 226 even though I'm supposed to be bulking. Might be better off just calling this a slow cut and accepting the fact that I don't even have time to eat except when I'm at home.

 

[Lol]

I assume you have all staff on at least a Smolov squat program as part of your "shake up and wake up" call?

Getting in enough cals to bulk at your size is no laughing matter. All I can suggest is that you have a large tub of peanut butter, laced with honey that you tuck into regularly throughout the day. I chuck it into some yoghurt with extra nuts, seeds and fruit but you may not have time for that, or a handy fridge for the yoghurt.

 

[Totentanz]

I'm using tactics like that right now just to maintain... haven't been getting to the gym that much, only about once a week the last couple weeks. Working 50 or more hours a week currently. Sort of regretting taking the promotion right now but it will get better with time. I'm just impatient when it comes to fixing things.