Baxmans Trip

Discussion in 'Training Logs' started by BAX67, Dec 26, 2007.

  1. BAX67

    BAX67 New Member

    Hi everyone!  Starting a log here and my first HST cycle.  Any comments and help would be greatly appreciated.  A little background info.  Have been working out for three years, mostly muscle mag crap until I found this website in August.  While waiting to get authorized decided to do the intermediate Madcow 5x5, which I came across on this site.  Loved it!!  After 15 weeks I'm finally ready for a little change.  I would like to start HST on Thurs. but I've only been off seven days.  Should I wait another two days to start? Kind of anxious to hit the iron again and try this out you know.  Here's what I have set up for my first cycle.


    MWF Full Body
    Squats
    Bench
    Bent Row
    Standing military press
    Deadlift
    Dips
    Chins

    Age 40
    Weight 165
    Height 5'8
    Thanks, Looking forward to participating in the forum.
     
  2. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    You have the biggest, best, hardest free-weight compound exercises in your list.  The only problem is, nobody can do all those exercises 3x/week with heavy weights and survive it for long.  Not enough recovery.  Especially your lower back and joints will get destroyed trying to do all those big-boy compounds each and every workout.
    I can't imagine doing squat, deads and bent rows every workout, 3x/week.  I would get weaker each week!
    Once I got into the 5s phase, I would be in a wheel-chair! [​IMG]

    Most HSters alternate big compounds, A on monday, B on wednesday and so on, just like the 5x5 routines.

    A workable, common example is:

    A)
    Squat
    Bench
    Row
    (shoulder movement; e.g.= laterals)

    B)
    Deadlift
    Dips
    Chins
    Mil. Press

    Try that 3x/week and I think you will see much better results.
     
  3. BAX67

    BAX67 New Member

    Thanks Scientific, that's what I was wanting to do but how do I rotate the weight between squats and deadlifts. My dead is much higher than my squat. These are my numbers for 15's.
    Squat 115 130 145 155 170 180
    Deads 185 200 215 230 245 260
    Do I just do 115 for workout 1 and 200 on dead for workout 2?
     
  4. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Yes, that is how you would do it.
     
  5. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Just progress each one separately. You'll only be doing three of each, so cut it down to three increments for each instead of six.

    Something like:
    Squat 120 150 180
    Deads 200 230 260
     
  6. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Totenanz's example is even better.
     
  7. BAX67

    BAX67 New Member

    Thanks Totenanz and Scientific! Greatly appreciated!
    Do you think 7 days is enough for a sd.
     
  8. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    You can do several different things with your choices - Sci's split works, but some of us don't like splits: like to "git 'er done".
    I did 13 exersizes per routine at first, but that doesn't last. OTOH, you can begin with it, and taper off exersizes, paring down to the big four, or whatever you can handle.
    It's not really a bad routine. No, it's actually a good routine, but squats and deads won't likely last beyond the tens without suffering, so what I've done is alternate each workout with squats and deads. Also, what I've been doing lately as long as I could was to do deads hard and a few easy squat sets, then reverse that next workout, slamming the squats.
    It's all about your recovery abilities and frequency. Also, HST works only with the submax weights by the slight 'deconditioning' of the SD, so if you want results, I'd relax or do cardio the next two days. Nine is sort of a minimum; I've done better with 14. Eat some Hoho's.

    edit: wow, walked away from the keyboard for a minnit and all these guys popped in!
     
  9. BAX67

    BAX67 New Member

    First HST workout today.  Decided to do A/B split MWF.
    A                                           B
    Squats                            Deadlift
    Bench                               Dips
    Chins                               Bent Rows
    Military Press                   Arnold Press


    Workout 1
    Squats 120  15
    Bench   120  15
    Chins    BW+15  15
    Mil Pr     70   15
    Hanging leg raise  15  15
    Decline crunch        15  15

    Pretty easy workout.  Only lasted about 20 minutes.  
    Daily Calories 3250
    P 321
    Carb 305
    Fat 83
     
  10. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Dec. 26 2007,20:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">but squats and deads won't likely last beyond the tens without suffering, so what I've done is alternate each workout with squats and deads. Also, what I've been doing lately as long as I could was to do deads hard and a few easy squat sets, then reverse that next workout, slamming the squats.

    Also, HST works only with the submax weights by the slight 'deconditioning' of the SD, so if you want results, I'd relax or do cardio the next two days. Nine is sort of a minimum; I've done better with 14. Eat some Hoho's.</div>
    Yup, I've had a lot of luck alternating light and heavy days with squats and deads.

    SD needs time. 14 days are better than 9.

    I dunno about the Hoho's... [​IMG]
     
  11. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    SD has been discussed alot and there is very little convincing research which conclusively points to any benefit of taking time off other than recovery. This is one area of HST that really is doubted by many, and I have yet to see Bryan defend it with conclusive evidence. The amount of time taken to decondition the tissue sufficiently to allow lighter loads to stimulate hypertrophy will allow too much muscle atrophy. So its two steps backward, two step forward...you end up in the same place!
    Most HSTers understand this but still take a week or two off a few times/year for recovery and a mental break. But if you ask me the whole 'decondition' in 9-14 days thing is more a 'belief' than a fact.
     
  12. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    [​IMG] I think there is a marker for deconditioning: strength. I find a significant difference between 9 and 14 days in my max strengths. Also, there were some who felt that it would actually take up to 30 days to &quot;decondition&quot; a muscle, but I'm thinking we're talking atrophy here.
    Now, you can try and grow on submax weights without an SD if you wish, but I'd have some doubts as to the possibility of that happening - the gyms are full of guys who stay the same, year after year, lifting the same weights, year after year. There is validity to your point IMO, in that if the SD is too long, you wind up in the same place. But if the SD is too short, the same result will occur.
    Some of these guys are growing on this program. Somebody's doing something right. According to our poll.
    I think some of us have hit on a &quot;better&quot; plan (not that there is a fitzall plan) of skipping 15's on some cycles. I personally wouldn't do 2 cycles in a row without them though. That puts you in the principal growth margin of the cycle, giving you more uptime...but some guys grow in the 15's too, so it gets confusing.
     
  13. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Excellent post Quadman. I personally believe that HST works because of its other principles: progressive mechanical loading, training frequency, etc. despite the SD principle which I have trouble swallowing.

    I think that one could even use the 15s as a 'de-load' instead of SDing, or just SD and skip the 15s, or even do both but growth will likely be delayed until the heavier stuff during such a long de-load of both 2 weeks off and 2 weeks of very sub-max loading. It sure is good for recovery of connective tissue though, that I won't argue!
    I prefer to think of SD as 'Strategic De-loading' for recovery purposes. [​IMG]
     
  14. BAX67

    BAX67 New Member

    I did a Russian powerlifting program this past summer for 9 weeks and 8 weeks of Madcow intermediate program with no time off.  This was after not lifting at all for 9 weeks(slipped on the ice and pulled a groin muscle-ouch).  Had nice gains in strength and size, but overtrained.  Got all irritable, pissy and couldn't sleep at night.  It took 2weeks for me to get back to sleeping right.  Anyways, I do believe the sd is important for the gains to keep coming.  The amount of time may be up to the individual.   I will follow your advice and stick to the 9-14 day plan because I want this program to work.  Thanks for all the excellent feedback.

    I'm not sore at all today.  I'm not surprised.  Next week I'll probally start to feel it.  Haven't done 15 reps of anything in a long time.

    Daily cals 3500
    pro 335
    carb 315
    fat   100

    Avg cals for week  3220
    Weight   165
     
  15. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Sci; you have to be careful not to confuse SD with deload: two different animals.
    I'm using deloads now on my longest HST cycle ever, running the reps down to 3's, and planning on finishing off the cycle with MS, all as an alternative experiment to my usual cycles. I've thought a lot about time on/off and the concept of &quot;backing up&quot; and came to this experiment for myself, not saying that anyone else would find it preferable. I'm using deloads since I'm overreaching and don't want to overtrain. So far it's working; I seem to be making new gains, at least in the mirror. Hard to tell with the fat though.
    I'll post more on this in my log as things 'develop'.
     
  16. BAX67

    BAX67 New Member

    Quaddancer, which log will you be posting your deload results in? I'd be interested in following that!
     
  17. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Dec. 31 2007,07:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sci; you have to be careful not to confuse SD with deload: two different animals.
    I'm using deloads now on my longest HST cycle ever, running the reps down to 3's, and planning on finishing off the cycle with MS, all as an alternative experiment to my usual cycles. I've thought a lot about time on/off and the concept of &quot;backing up&quot; and came to this experiment for myself, not saying that anyone else would find it preferable. I'm using deloads since I'm overreaching and don't want to overtrain. So far it's working; I seem to be making new gains, at least in the mirror. Hard to tell with the fat though.
    I'll post more on this in my log as things 'develop'.</div>
    Deloading refers to a decrease in load and/or work temporarily to increase recovery, which is similiar to unloading or total rest. Deloading now and then aids recovery and is helpful in intermediate to advanced periodized training.
    I believe that the deloading recovery effect (or unloading) of the SD period is why it has a beneficial effect, I don't believe that any significant RBE deconditioning happens in a short period of time.
     
  18. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Deconditioning and Science.

    This interesting discussion recently at the max-stim/hypertrophy-research forum goes into more detail.

    p.s.- sorry baxman, thread hijack over!
     
  19. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    <div>
    (BAX67 @ Dec. 31 2007,10:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Quaddancer, which log will you be posting your deload results in?  I'd be interested in following that!</div>
    http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....adancer

    It's not really a log or a thread on deloading; it's about losing mega size and strength in a 2 month &quot;SD&quot; and muscle memory (MM) in the 2 months return workouts, adding deloads and hopefully, continuing into new territory.
    Why, it's just an epic saga of monumental proportions regarding an odyssey of wondrous trials and tribulations. [​IMG]
    Not.
     
  20. BAX67

    BAX67 New Member

    Monday workout 2

    Deads  200    15
    Dips     BW      15
    Bent rows  90  15
    Arnold pr    30   15
    rev crunch  15  15
    crunch         15  15
    Looking forward to next week.  Doesn't feel like I'm doing much here.

    Daily calories 3460
    pro 307
    carb 352
    fat 92

    Not to worry sci, it all makes for good reading!
     

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