Doing away with bulking and cutting

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Vagrant...Im guessing you are into MMA.

I boxed for a couple of months in college (nothing serious) and fighting for 4 rounds was the hardest damn thing I have ever done!

Bag work, boxing and training to fight in general is the toughest thing I have ever done!

Whats your background?

Boxing, muy thi, ju-jitsu?
 
Taekwondo for 2 years now. If you haven't tried it, it is all about speed and strength. There is no grappling during sparring. It is just taking a beating and while trying to dish out as much or more to your opponent.

I am going to probably train with and incorporate some jiu jitsu and aikido with jiu jitsu being on higher priority.
I am not going to switch until i get my blackbelt however so that will be in a couple years.

My uncle is I think a 4th or 5th dan and is developing his own techniques ATM and I plan on working with him. I am going to a weapon/practice seminar in alabama with him in December and I get my @$$ kicked in by the 3rd and 4th dans of jiu jitsu......they are also like 35-60 but hey, you don't get better by fighting somebody less skilled than you.
 
I started 20 years ago with shotokan karate.  After a few years learned in the street that it was useless on the ground and got some JJJ instruction, nothing like the BJJ that kicks everyone's butt in the octagon though.  I did boxing when boxers were all I could find to workout with. I got to take a week long 40 hour clinic of SSKF techniques and over time some of the various things I trained in stayed with me and others were abandoned.  

I can't really call what I do a "style", I just take what works best for me and leave what I can't do well with unconcious competence behind.

It mostly resembles SSKF with some shotokan influence all techniques linear and low.  I try to stay off the ground and when there, I just go for chokes or breaks, there is nothing fancy in anything I do.
 
That's awsome. In my opinion karate is hard to utilize in the everyday world and is more of a way to prepare yourself for a more extreme style of Martial Arts.

The downside of being a bodybuilder is when you build large masses of muscle in a short amount of time, you start to lose flexability(just my thigh joints). Any recomendations?
 
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(Cova @ Nov. 26 2006,20:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That's awsome. In my opinion karate is hard to utilize in the everyday world and is more of a way to prepare yourself for a more extreme style of Martial Arts.

The downside of being a body building is when you build large masses of muscle in a short amount of time, you start to lose flexability(just my thigh joints). Any recomendations?</div>
Stretching after workouts. The bigger muscles will be stronger and more flexible than the smaller ones.

However, during the time that the MS and obesity was gaining on me and taking abilities away my MA training was limited to slow practice with the heavy bag, just throwing techniques aiming for KO shots with each blow. That was all I was able to do. It did save my ass a couple of times when I was forced into altercations to be able to end a fight in only a couple of strikes because there was no way I could have gone a couple of minutes.

After the fateful day when I saw I was going to end up in a wheelchair and couldn't walk without assistance I started the bodybuilding again one step at a time. Now, 3 years later and 37 years old, I'm in the best shape of my life. Just not currently in fighting condition because of the time off from cardio.

There is a big difference between being &quot;in shape&quot; and &quot;in condition&quot;. We never know when something that requires conditioning may come up. That's why I say never give up cardio...just eat enough to support it.
 
From what I understand and read.

As for MMA and self defense.

Boxing, Muy-Thai, and BJJ...seem to be the bread and butter.

I have only limited expierence in boxing 4 months and karate about 3 months.

However I would love to get into Muy-Thai!
 
I feel that if you have a backround of karate and put about 5-20 years into aikido and BJJ, then you will perform well enough to kick any of those ultimate fighters asses for the most part. Aikido in average has the strongest punch......so i have been told. It is an amazing MAs and not too many people practice it. In an extremely small nutshell, BJJ is JJ on steroids.

However, you can not compare two or more different martial arts styles to one another. You simply compare who has put more dedication into what they love and it shows when they fight.
 
Well i am not in karate....i am in TKD. But you can not really say karate sucks because it all goes back to skill level.
 
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(vagrant @ Nov. 26 2006,18:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> No, you don't have to become obese to bulk because the amount of cutting needed will also burn up your muscle at about a 50/50 ratio with your fat.</div>
Where does this come from?

The benefits of cardio are so misunderstood by the majority of BBrs and those involved in strength training. The otherside of it all is that strength training does wonderful things for the heart and vasculature and when you vigorously combine the two, you get increases in LBM, increases in cardiovasculare fitness and big drops in Body fat. I always do cardio and strength training with equal vigor.
 
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(quadancer @ Nov. 25 2006,15:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Pierre, I'm not a post flamer, but when you used your stretched avatar as a reference to 'prove' your point, I couldn't sit still, nor could Steve. But you've started a really interesting thread that has been very educational. I also don't like people using 'roiders pics for avatars...unless maybe they actually LOOK like that!  
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Synopsis: We're all friends who agree to disagree! Peace, my brothers!</div>
actually the avatar was not strectched, but compressed and it wasn´t me who did the compression.

´
Thanks,

Pierre
 
The old BB myth of being &quot;musclebound&quot; pops up now and then. They took some tests and found that many or most of the BB'ers were more flexible than their sedentary counterparts, due to stretching and just doing exersize period. That was back around '95. Some of the massive 'roiders probably don't qualify though, I would think.
As for you guys in martial arts, I would think it would be a total necessity to do full body stretching at least twice a day, since your performance would be hampered by lack of free range.
 
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(vagrant @ Nov. 26 2006,18:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now for the bulking idea.  No, you don't have to become obese to bulk because the amount of cutting needed will also burn up your muscle at about a 50/50 ratio with your fat.  In the end, you'll gain 30 or 40lbs, lose it and have maybe 2-5lbs of muscle gains at the end.</div>
i dont quite get what your saying there but if it is that when you do a cut youll lose 50/50 muscle and fat,i dont agree.maybe i read it wrong?

i approach a cutting cycle by adding cardio and not a callorie deficit anyway.so i retain more muscle,by avoiding the starvation response the body can employ when callories run way short.catabolism is our enemy and needs to be avoided at all costs.done correctly a cut can be done without major muscle loss.

lcars
 
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(Old and Grey @ Nov. 27 2006,08:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Inflexibility has nothing to do with big muscles or weight lifting.</div>
Very true.

A long time ago I had a chance to train with some Olympic lifters, some of whom were national caliber and one a former world record holder. These guys were not body builders, but make no mistake, they had very large muscles.

At least one or two were said to be able to do the splits or come very close, despite their large thigh size. Also, try to hold just a 45 lb bar overhead in a snatch position and do an overhead squat if you have inflexible shoulders. Same thing with a squat clean and racking the bar on your deltoids.

It's just a question of stretching.
 
I like this thread. I've been reading a lot at Berardi's website. He talks a lot about this. Some people have called him a con-man, but all his info is free. Yes, he has a diet book, and a stake in some supplements, but lots of guys do. His presentation does not makle his own products seem necessary. He refers to them, but doesn't insist they are needed for results.

Anyway, here are some of his case studies:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">*Case Study #1:
National Level Cross Country Skier; Female - 20y
Client Information from September 2002:
5’6&quot; ; 160lb ; 22% fat
(125lb lean, 35lbs fat)

Exercise Expenditure:
~1200kcal/day

Energy Intake:
~2500kcal/day
15% protein
65% carbohydrate
20% fat
Client Information from December 2002:
5’6&quot; ; 135lb ; 9% fat
(123lb lean, 12lbs fat)

Exercise Expenditure:
~1200kcal/day

Energy Intake:
~4000kcal/day
35% protein
40% carbohydrate
25% fat
Net result — 12 weeks:
25lbs lost; -23lb fat; -2lbs lean
*Note that in case study #1, we increased energy intake by a whopping 1500 per day while energy expenditure remained the same. Since the athlete was weight stable in September—prior to hiring me—you might have expected her to have gained weight during our 12 week program. However, as you can see, she lost 25lbs (while preserving most of her muscle mass). Since the energy balance model above, as it appears, can’t explain this very interesting result, that’s one strike.
*Case Study #2:
Beginner Weight Lifter; Male — 23y
Client Information from August 2003:
5’6&quot; ; 180lb ; 30% fat
(126lb lean, 54lbs fat)

Exercise Expenditure:
~200kcal/day

Energy Intake:
~1700kcal/day
21% protein
57% carbohydrate
22% fat
Client Information from October 2003:
5’6&quot; ; 173lb ; 20% body fat
(138.5lb lean, 34.5lbs fat)

Exercise Expenditure:
~600kcal/day

Energy Intake:
~2200 - 2400kcal/day
35 - 40% protein
30 - 35% carbohydrate
30 - 35% fat
Net result — 8 weeks:
7lb weight loss; -19.5lb fat, +12.5lb lean
*Notice that in case study #2, we increased energy intake by between 500 and 700 per day while increasing energy expenditure by about 400 per day. Again, since the lifter was weight stable in June, prior to hiring me, you might have expected him to have gained weight or at least remained weight stable during this 8 week program. However, as you can see, he lost 7 lbs. But that’s not the most interesting story. During the 8 weeks, he lost almost 20lbs of fat while gaining almost 13 lbs of lean mass. Since the energy balance model above, as it appears, can’t explain this very interesting result, that’s two strikes.
*Case Study #3:
Mixed Martial Arts Trainer; Male — 35y
Client Information from June 2004:
5’10&quot; ; 179lb ; 19% fat
(148.6lb lean, 30.4lbs fat)

Exercise Expenditure:
~300kcal/day

Energy Intake:
~1100 - 1500kcal/day
48% protein
25% carbohydrate
27% fat
Client Information from August 2004:
5’10&quot; ; 187lb ; 9% body fat
(170.2lb lean, 16.8lbs fat)

Exercise Expenditure:
~600kcal/day

Energy Intake:
~2400 - 2600kcal/day
26 - 38% protein
28 — 42% carbohydrate
22 — 34% fat
Net results — 8 weeks:
8lb weight gain; -13.6 lb fat, +21.6 lb
*Notice that in case study #3, we increased energy intake by between 1100 and 1300 per day while increasing energy expenditure by only about 300 per day. Again, since the lifter was weight stable in June, prior to hiring me, you might have expected him to have experienced a large gain in mass, both significant muscle and fat gains. However, as you can see, he gained 8 total lbs, having lost almost 14lbs of fat while gaining nearly 22lbs of lean mass.
While the energy balance equation might have predicted weight gain, it’s
unlikely that it would have predicted the radical shift in body composition seen in this individual. Yet another strike against the current view of energy
balance, as it appears.
</div>

He follows principles based on the timing of nutrition around exercise, both resistance and aerobic. He has a reputation of &quot;super-high&quot; calorie plans. Part of this is in the way the body responds to higher calories in conjunction with exercise to increase the metabolism.
 
There does tend to be the belief around that cardio during bulking simply increases the amount of calories you need to eat &amp; that the only necessary detail is eating a certain amount more than your body burns.

But if someone started eating 1000 calories more than usual and burning an extra 1000 calories during exercise...apart from increasing metabolism theyd be sending a large amount more nutrients into their body.

For eating that much more to have exactly the same effect as eating and burning less (meaning it only comes down to the gap between energy burned and taken in)...exactly the same ratio of those new extra calories from protein/carbs/fat put into your body would have to be oxidized for energy during the cardio.
If the ratio changed the slightest bit the guy would have different results from eating more and exercising more, as hed be burning a different amount of protein/carbs/fat over the course of the day/week/month etc.

I think theres a good chance that more fat/carbs would be used during the extra cardio than the extra protein put into the body. Protein would still make up an amount of it...but it may be a good way to make sure the extra cardio didnt limit any gains in muscle mass as any protein catabolized could be replaced by the protein in the blood stream ? And the extra cardio would result in more carbs/fat being used for energy than usual which would increase the rate at which u lose fat.

This would seem like a possible way to minimize/lose fat &amp; maintain the same gains in muscle mass.

Ofcourse its very possible that this is completely wrong also  
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Ive seen some studies aswell showing that cardio definately helps with hypertrophy (especially it would seem in the legs) so regardless it would definately seem to be beneficial for anyone bulking.
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Nov. 27 2006,09:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The old BB myth of being &quot;musclebound&quot; pops up now and then. They took some tests and found that many or most of the BB'ers were more flexible than their sedentary counterparts, due to stretching and just doing exersize period. That was back around '95. Some of the massive 'roiders probably don't qualify though, I would think.
As for you guys in martial arts, I would think it would be a total necessity to do full body stretching at least twice a day, since your performance would be hampered by lack of free range.</div>
reach for the sky with your right hand, now bend your arm at the elbow so that the palm of your hand is behind your head, now use your left hand to reach up to the middle of your back with your palm facing away from you...try to lock the fingers of both hands

I used to be able to do that before I was into bbing....I can't even come close to making both hands touch now, much less interlock. I think my legs are more flexible than they used to be though.
 
Heck, I never could do that anyway! One thing I notice is that I can't grab my opposing forearm behind my back to pull up and pop my spine anymore. Ever since my lats grew. But I think that's just simple mechanics, not inflexibility.

I think having BEEF in the way is a GOOD thing!
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Steve i can see where you get at with the stretching and all, but some muscle are justing going to get in the way when they get huge.....like lats(as mentioned above).
 
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