Doing away with bulking and cutting

[scientific muscle]

Cova....you are 17, 130 something pounds, and 15% bodyfat.
So basically, you are a normal, smallish, young teenager!

Forget cutting, forget supplements, forget about your bodyfat for awhile.
If I could go back to being a small out-of-shape (no offense) teenager (which I was also!) I would spend an hour in the gym three/days week lifting as heavy as possible doing all the big compounds. I would eat somewhat above maintence, and slowly watch the muscle pack on!

I remember when I was a 15 year old, 140 lb. guy, and I didn't even have a six-pack!!! I had pathetic amounts of muscle tissue...I think I could bench like 80 lb.s or something! I spent years reading muscle mags and worrying about how to get big and lean, and reading about supplements and bullsh!t, I slowly gained mass, but mostly I wasted my time.

You don't need supplements, you don't need to cut, you need to lift and gain weight slowly by eating a normal balanced diet.....period.

 

[Cova]

No you are totally right. All thermos do is give you an edge. If you still consume same amount of calories in surplus as you do with the thermos, you will merely be able to eat more.

I have checked many sites that have nothing to do with sales(networks and forums). I think what made the thermo testing i did be so successful was i wasn't eating much over basal maybe 2300 calories and i was doing about an hour and 10 minutes of stationary which according to the reader i burned about 650-750 calories depending on how long I went. Yeah so i dropped 7 pounds in a week maybe 2. I didn't lose any strength what-so-ever and i continued my aerobics like normal. I looked great, had a 29-30 inch waste but my LBM was like 125(yeah i know pathetic......) according to calculations.

In reality there are very few products that actually work but maybe it was because i was just getting into weights, had just changed my diet to pure whole foods, and started riding the bike like a mad-man.

 

[Cova]

<div>
(scientific muscle @ Dec. 05 2006,21:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Cova....you are 17, 130 something pounds, and 15% bodyfat.
So basically, you are a normal, smallish, young teenager!

Forget cutting, forget supplements, forget about your bodyfat for awhile.
If I could go back to being a small out-of-shape (no offense) teenager (which I was also!) I would spend an hour in the gym three/days week lifting as heavy as possible doing all the big compounds.  I would eat somewhat above maintence, and slowly watch the muscle pack on!

I remember when I was a 15 year old, 140 lb. guy, and I didn't even have a six-pack!!!  I had pathetic amounts of muscle tissue...I think I could bench like 80 lb.s or something!  I spent years reading muscle mags and worrying about how to get big and lean, and reading about supplements and bullsh!t, I slowly gained mass, but mostly I wasted my time.

You don't need supplements, you don't need to cut, you need to lift and gain weight slowly by eating a normal balanced diet.....period.</div>
Well, 130lbm...rough estimate is probably more. My problem is i am worried:
Not sure if this occurs in many teens but excess estrogen production when a certian BF reached. I am practically 16%BF(lowest ever was 14 and i had an awsome 4 pack).

 Gross i know, i have been there my entire life. Probably because the steroids in my inhaler forced my appetite to run crazy and i ate too much as a kid. I do not take any asthma stuff anymore. Not only that but i have a history of diabetics in my father's family. I am carb sensative(ironicaly the best energy macronutrient). So the only way to lose fat is to either lose it fast or stay  trying to get skinny and never gain any muscle. I am going to get bloodwork done to check my test levels and stuff. I have a suspicion my test is rather low-possibly due to a medication.

 

[bluejacket]

cova,

you are the classic case of &quot;too much information&quot;. it seems to be drowning out simple common sense training and eating. at your age and wgt. you should be spending the next 2-3 yrs on a basic bulking lifting and eating sched. instead your consumed with pure whole food, body fat %, the price of thermo supplements, steroids in asthma meds, excess estrogen, liquid diet plans, carb sensitivity, test levels, etc. etc. etc. the list is endless.

you have yet to provide any type of long/short range goals beyond losing 15lbs in 29days so i dont think i can be of anymore help to you.

this ship is begining to take on water and the captain is determined to go down with her.

good luck

 

[Cova]

Well ideally i would like to hit 200+ but that will be another 10 years....I would be perfectly fine if i could hit a lbm of 150 in the next 2 monthes. I do not no why i am going so slow. It seems the only time i ever did put on lots of muscle is when i was eating a rediculously huge amount of surplus.

Personally, i would rather be able to fit in my size 30 pants back when i weighed 140 but i also had a lbm of between 120-125.

I seriously tried to cut down but i hit a plataeu within 2 monthes and could not drop anymore regardless of what i tried so i just started eating normally again and went back up to 140......

This is my workout:
Leg press
Leg extension
Bench press
Standing rows
Shoulder shrugs
Overhead Press
Tricep pulldowns
Bicep curl with Barbell
Tricep Extensions
Abs

I am thinking i need an AB routine with this being A. What do you think?

BTW guys....quit rating me this is crap.

I know my stuff with nutrition and i can easily help somebody else in a jam and have. I just cant help myself suceed-

... I lack experience in weightlifting, which is why i ask questions. I do not want to screw up in training.

 

[JonnyH]

<div>
(davidwillis @ Dec. 05 2006,14:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Is there any way to gain muscle, and loose fat (or at least not gain any) with only one hour per day to lift (or do cardio)?</div>
From what ive read not significantly unless you are a beginner to lifting with a higher than normal bf%, taking certain drugs or coming back to lifting after taking a while off. So i wouldnt be expecting to get that result.

Im still unsure of the process by which this would be achieved for anyone else.

Best thing to do is try it out obviously.
My next cycle im going to combine regular cardio + eating more than usual so im still gaining 1lb per week and see how this effects my gains.  

 

[Fausto]

Cova

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well ideally i would like to hit 200+ but that will be another 10 years</div>

What if I tell this is possible in 1 1/2 years with HST, maybe even one year but to be consevative and not get &quot;shot&quot; by all in the forum

?

That is 70 Lbs in 18 months, 3.88 ~ 4 Lbs per month or 0.97 ~ 1 Lb per week, it is easily achievable by eating 1 g/Lb bodyweight of protein, 5 g creatine daily, and keeping this day in - day out.

Now consider that and get moving!

 

[Fausto]

For routines, check out the thread &quot;Simplify and Win&quot;

 

[Lol]

<div>
(Cova @ Dec. 06 2006,06:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well ideally i would like to hit 200+ but that will be another 10 years....I would be perfectly fine if i could hit a lbm of 150 in the next 2 monthes. I do not no why i am going so slow. It seems the only time i ever did put on lots of muscle is when i was eating a rediculously huge amount of surplus.</div>
This has turned into a let's help Covs thread! Okay, my 2¢:

Cova: The folks here give some of the best advice to be had anywhere on the net. They have told you what to do if you want to grow and I think you know too. It's great that you love the subject but at this stage in your life you need to focus on the basics.

Compared to you I am an old bloke at 41. I think my test levels are probably lower than yours. I have a herniated disc from a work related accident (improving as I age - so there is a benefit!

). However, in a year and two weeks using HST and eating a LOT I have gone from 165lbs to my present 215lbs. Sure, I've added a fair bit of fat and I should probably have bulked slower but I've been learning too. I had no idea that I could grow that much in a year through training and diet alone.

Here's basically what I did 3 x weekly:

A: ATG squats, bench, Pendlay rows, Standing OH press
B: Conventional deadlifts, dips, chins, Standing OH press

Yeah, a really complex routine! I figure I can worry about the details later.

These were my goals: To squat 300lbs &amp; to dead 400lbs.

I made both goals within a year! I didn't really give a rat's a$$ how I looked. I just wanted to grow and get stronger and it worked.

Now my goal is to squat 400lb and dead 500lb as I actually now believe it's possible for a guy like me to do it. I haven't got great genetics so I may never look like much (flat biceps, dodgy right pec etc) but I know that when I can lift those weights I will be a lot bigger than I was. My squat is up to around 335 for 5 reps now and my deads - well, I'll find out in the next week or so but definitely over 410 for 5 reps.

Your goal should be to squat and deadlift at least 2x bodyweight and bench and chin 1.5x bodyweight. Focus on moving more weight in those 7 exercises. Forget the iso's for now unless you have the inclination, time and energy.

Weigh yourself once a week to see how things are going. If you haven't gained after two weeks then up your cals and keep doing that until you do gain. It really is that easy.

If I can do it so can you!

 

[Lol]

<div>
(Fausto @ Dec. 06 2006,07:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That is 70 Lbs in 18 months, 3.88 ~ 4 Lbs per month or 0.97  ~ 1 Lb per week, it is easily achievable by eating 1 g/Lb bodyweight of protein, 5 g creatine daily, and keeping this day in - day out.</div>
That's awesome Fausto. And I think you have gained less fat than me too. Hope the next 18 months are just as productive.

 

[faz]

cova the routine lol put up is

try that 3x a wk hiit cardio on off days.
fatburners only benefit people who are in the single didget fat levels IMO.
stop thinking so much your brain will hurt.
eat sensibly
train hard but smart
rest up
thats all you need .
and patience which is what you seem to lack

 

[Fausto]

Lol

That is not my gains no...I am just working out for Cov's here that the target he wishes to get (put on 70 Lbs) can easily be done in one 1/2 years at 1 lb per week, it is defintelly not a thumbsuck it has been done and it can be done.

Ooooooh How I wish I had gained that much, I'd have been 220 pounds at my height - a small gorilla - the only thing missing would have been the cage!

 

[jvroig]

Ok, let me join in now in the &quot;Let's help Cova thread&quot;

Young man, here's what you do to pack on muscle.
Deadlift, bench, rows, chins. -&gt; assuming you only have a bench at home and something to hang on to.
If you can, also do squats.

If you workout at a gym, then do Bench, Deadlift, squats, rows. Period. While you are running full of testosterone, focus on those four, and before you hit 20 years old, you'll be piling up the weights in those four and you'll be much much larger - probably close to 200 if not 200 already.

But of course, eat enough. Figure out your maintenance, then start by going voer by 500-700.

Short and simple. You don't need 12 exercises in your routine now. Just those four will be enough.

Regards,
-JV

 

[jvroig]

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ooooooh How I wish I had gained that much, I'd have been 220 pounds at my height - a small gorilla - the only thing missing would have been the cage!</div>

Fausto ol' buddy, if you get that big... as my show of support and congratulatons, I'll send you the cage myself

And maybe some bananas too if I get to drop by South Africa

 

[colby2152]

This post grew rapidly... need to read!

 

[imported_davidwillis]

I just saw a site where a guy says he found the seceret to gaining muscle and loosing fat at the same time link (warning, he is selling his book, and it is just a big add). But I am not willing to pay $40 to find out what his seceret is.

 

[Cova]

Thanks guys!

I weigh 162 with clothes on and when i started BBing (Early june) i was 133. I wasn't bulking up till just recently however so i all of a sudden made a huge recovery growth when i took a week off and started eating a lot.

My benchpress is a lever benchpress in which you sit up-right in. Would i make better gains with a normal bench and bar? I seem to be building the part of the tricep that is closest to the pectorals on the inside.(called the triceps brachii,long head)

I am mainly gaining mass in my legs.

I think the initial fat gain from my bulk was because i added too much in one day and i didn't let my metabolism increase.

 

[scientific muscle]

You are doing fine Cova.
What we are all saying is basically....Keep it simple. Body-building takes a loooong time, and all teh supplements and tweaking in the world won't make that much of a difference.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">All you need to gain muscle is three key ingredients:
1)Heavy compounds exercises, like JV or Lol suggested.
2)A small, but significant daily caloric surplus(enough for about 1lb.s/week)
3)TIME.
</div>
The third one is the one that makes me crazy, and causes all of us to read millions of articles and buy millions of supplements. Gaining muscle is a patient man's game, I have low patience like most people. I have been lifting on and off my whole life with ho-hum results. In May, 2006 I found HST principles and Hypertrophy-research.com. Since then I have gained about 10-12 lb.s of lbm. NOT BAD! But now I am gaining about 0.5-1 lb.s/week and I feel much stronger and more muscular than when I started. But I still get impatient...My upper arms are a measly 15.25 inches (at 6'1&quot; this is small), My chest is only 42&quot; or so. I want to be big and strong NOW! the fact that it is a slow, agonizing process sucks, but honestly....
Patience, following my basic routine, and eating my basic diet, will accomplish far more than trying hundreds of supplements, and tweaking my workout with the latest new method every week will ever do.

 

[colby2152]

Finally, I read through this long post. The title grabbed me, as I want to get to a point of no bulking or cutting like I was doing before. I got too engaged in the fact that I wanted a 6 pack. I no longer want that, so I guess I won the body-image war against American society. However, I will want to be slim around the waist and not have a gut, so a 2 pack will be in order.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">However, I do cycle my training and I do SD. I found it to be key to my growing again after many years of being stalled.

</div>

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I do the same thing, at 250 cal over maintenance, but I emphasis the calories a little bit differently:

Protein
Good fats
complex carbs
simple carbs (sans sugar carbs)
bad fats

Of course the 250 cal is a guesstimate. I usually ending up putting on about 5 pounds per year now with bodyfat staying at 9%. So, I am probably, on average less than 100 cal daily over maintenance. </div>

Looks like I will keep quoting O&amp;G, but his mindset was the one I followed to a T (minus the spring/summer cut of 06), and it worked as I slowly cut down bodyfat% and put on plenty of LBM (30 lbs) since June 05.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you try to eat just a little more than maintenance, say just a few hundred cals over, how do you know that you are getting it consistantly right (maintenance is a guesstimate after all and it will vary everyday depending on requirements)?</div>

Lol makes a good point there. Maintenance/BMR/TDEE levels are all estimations from equations and sample statistics you can take every day from your body. The more observations you have, the more data you will get, and it will follow a normal distribution (BMR vs. body weight, fluctuations) and you can account for it. It's what I do in a not-so-simple Excel spreadsheet that a few of you have... but I enhanced it with standard deviations in the latest version!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">To me, bulking is eating more calories than you are burning, and cutting is eating less calories than you are burning. You can't gain muscle mass while you are cutting, and can't lose fat while you're bulking (noobs need not apply). Your statements concerning bodyfat levels are very vague. You never specify certain percentages. </div>

SteveJones, I think it has been proved for many different subjects. We have enough here across the forum to show this. The power of losing fat while building muscle is based upon one's bodyfat percentage. The higher it is, the more efficient they will be able to lose fat and build muscle at the same time.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Right Im kind of confused over this thread. We all agree that to gain WEIGHT you've got to eat at a calorie surplus right? I have recently gone from 210--224 while gaining definition in my abs.

</div>

Also, take note of the fact that while one may not lose fat on a slight caloric surplus, their bodyfat% can still go down making them leaner. One's fat levels could stay the same or even go up and their bodyfat% could go down with the ample addition of LBM.

Case in point:
Weight: 200
bf%: 15
LBM: 170
fat: 30

After a slow bulk in some variable time..
Weight: 220
bf%: 14.54%
LBM: 188
fat: 32

Extremely efficient results... this just proves the math of it. The person put on weight through a bulk albeit slow. This person gained fat and muscle, and his bodyfat% went down by a bit slimming him down. More extreme examples could be used, but I will keep my own personal story out of this one as O&amp;G already used his.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Seriously, after reading all this and many other discussions, most agree that it is very hard to put on LBM with a caloric deficit.</div>

This may be the other half of the argument. I think a slow cut of within 250 calories of your maintenance levels should have inverse effects of a slow bulk. Person may lose a good amount of fat over time, while losing a little bit of muscle. Unless their bodyfat% is greater than oh say 15%, they will not be able to lose fat, put on muscle on a CUTTING cycle or caloric deficit.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What one guys may call a bulk might look like a cut to someone else.</div>

Joe, you must compare apples to apples. Therefore two people's differing maintenance levels must be relative to their caloric intake.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Start:
Weight 300lb
FFM - 120lb
FM - 180lb
BF - 60%

Post huge 2 year cut:
BW 170lb
FFM 160lb
FM 10lb
BF 7%

That's a net fat loss of 170lbs (and I thought all this time it was only 160lbs) OOPS. And a LBM gain of 40lbs using my body fat for fuel. (there is where the excess for muscle growth came from 9 big calories/gram of fat).</div>

That's insane, I commend you.

I couldn't really comment on the last couple pages as there was much karate talk and some science mumbo jumbo. There's my 14 cents.

-Colby

 

[Fausto]

JV ol'buddy, howdy?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fausto ol' buddy, if you get that big... as my show of support and congratulatons, I'll send you the cage myself And maybe some bananas too if I get to drop by South Africa</div>

Fat chance...the wife will put up some serious fight first, she's already telling me that me thighs are getting too big and how that is going to make me look shorter

...nah, me target is 178 or 80 Kg no more no less, once I am there I'll just keep it.

As for the bananas, they might not get here fresh dude! I love the darn things eat them regularly. Got to start cutting rather regularly though, the other day measured my BF and scored 16.83% gooodness...time to cut big time.

My most inetersting question, and now in line with the original thread, what happens if one starts doing cardio daily instead of cutting, and just slightly trim the meals, say 250 or so? What then? Dr Debbs, others