"Eating fat makes you fat"

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(pete69 @ May 21 2008,11:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
Hence, eat more food and absorb less, less potential for fat gain.
...</div>
That assessment is incorrect.

Carbs accelerate transit. By doing so, it increase the amount of food that can be eaten. Adding fat to this will reduce the amount of food that can be eaten.

Fat slows down transit. By doing so, it reduces the amount of food one can eat. Adding carbs to this will increase the amount of food that can be eaten.

When we look only at the total quantity of food, fat is highly restrictive while carbs is highly permissive. There are several examples of this. Stevejones says he's not hungry and has a hard time eating enough to get up to the required 3200 calories per day. Some studies on the subject have looked at how much food we can eat. With carbs, subjects would eat as much as they desired, sometime as much as 10,000 calories per day, yet were still hungry a few hours after the last meal.

I don't see how eating more food and absorbing less could ever be true. Unless, of course, we were suffering from a condition that prevented us from absorbing nutrients. But that's not what the assessment pertains to.
 
Some garbage, different day.

From that one post we see you have little understanding about digestion, that you ignore any of the data on lower fat diets because they do not suit your opinion and spew forth misinformation like its got a gold stamp on it.
 
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(Aaron_F @ May 21 2008,6:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Some garbage, different day.

From that one post we see you have little understanding about digestion, that you ignore any of the data on lower fat diets because they do not suit your opinion and spew forth misinformation like its got a gold stamp on it.</div>
That sums it up quite well.
Smiley_High_Five.gif
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">&quot;Some studies on the subject have looked at how much food we can eat. With carbs, subjects would eat as much as they desired, sometime as much as 10,000 calories per day, yet were still hungry a few hours after the last meal.&quot;</div>

Citation of this study?
 
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(pete69 @ May 21 2008,9:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">&quot;Some studies on the subject have looked at how much food we can eat. With carbs, subjects would eat as much as they desired, sometime as much as 10,000 calories per day, yet were still hungry a few hours after the last meal.&quot;</div>

Citation of this study?</div>
What study do you refer to when you claim that &quot;Hence, eat more food and absorb less, less potential for fat gain.&quot;? I'd hate to see your own words turn against you. You're such a nice guy.
 
&quot;Some studies on the subject have looked at how much food we can eat. With carbs, subjects would eat as much as they desired, sometime as much as 10,000 calories per day, yet were still hungry a few hours after the last meal.&quot;

I recall stories of cannibals who didn't like to eat Chinese people, because after just a few hours they'd get hungry again...
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Martin,

Do you consider all fats to be equal? Is there a preferred source...saturated, hydrogenated, monounsaturated, polyunsaturated? It would seem that the health of a high fat diet could vary greatly based on the type of fats consumed.
 
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(soflsun @ May 22 2008,2:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Martin,

Do you consider all fats to be equal? Is there a preferred source...saturated, hydrogenated, monounsaturated, polyunsaturated? It would seem that the health of a high fat diet could vary greatly based on the type of fats consumed.</div>
There was an article on the NYT blogs recently about the role of polyunsturated fats i.e. corn oil in cancer. Here's the link:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008....st=blog

All fats are not created equal apparently. The way I see it, if it comes from a carbohydrate i.e. plant based, it must be bad for me. If it comes from an animal with the exception of animal milk, it must be good for me.
 
martin talks nonsense-ignore him. I read two of the papers he refers to about glaucoma and one about fat metabolism. He does not know how to read and comprehend scientific literature.
 
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(soflsun @ May 22 2008,8:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Do you consider all fats to be equal?  Is there a preferred source...saturated, hydrogenated, monounsaturated, polyunsaturated?  It would seem that the health of a high fat diet could vary greatly based on the type of fats consumed.</div>
If you want to know more, and want to know the truth, read The Colesterol Myths, by Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD. His book is the most well researched book I've ever read.

FYI, here are some snippets on polyunsaturated fatty acids: <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The main part of a fatty acid is composed of a core of carbon atoms to which hydrogen atoms are attached. When the number of hydrogen atoms is optimal, their electrons form stable pairs with those of the carbon atoms. Examples of stable molecules are the saturated fatty acids, those said to be dangerous to the heart and the vessels. They are called saturated because they are saturated with hydrogen. Unsaturated fatty acids are missing hydrogen atoms. Monounsaturated fatty acids are missing two atoms, polyunsaturated fatty acids are missing four or more. This means that instead of sharing one pair of electrons with each other, some of the carbon atoms are sharing two pairs of electrons with their neighbor carbon instead of one pair, forming the so-called double bond. A double bond is less stable than a single bond. A hydrogen atom sitting close to a double bond is easily snatched by a free radical. Free radicals snatch hydrogen atoms because one or more of their electrons lack their partner; they are unpaired.
...
Inside the cells of our body oxidation is vital to cell function and life as long as this process is controlled by hormones and enzymes. Step by step, sugar and other fuel molecules are oxidized to water and carbon dioxide, a process that releases energy for the cell machinery. So far so good. But if oxidation occurs without control, as it may do if we are exposed to free radicals, molecules other than sugar may be oxidized. Among these others are the unstable polyunsaturated fatty acids. Loss of hydrogen atoms is disastrous to a polyunsaturated fatty acid (as to other molecules as well), because its stability is ruined and it is oxidized or split into lesser molecules with nasty qualities. Usually the human body is protected against oxidation thanks to many various antioxidats, kind molecules that donate hydrogen atoms to free radicals, thus protecting us against uncontrolled oxidation. Vitamin E, for example, is a well-known and important antioxidant that protects the polyunsaturated fatty acids in our cell membranes. There are many others. But if too many polyunsaturated fatty acids are present, or if too many free radicals are available, or if the amount of antioxidants are insufficient, then the antioxidants may fail to protect the body.
...
When too much polyunsaturated oil is given to laboratory animals, their white blood cells become damaged so that the animals die more easily from infectious diseases and cancer. We do not know for sure whether the same is valid for human beings, but we know that our immune system is sensitive to a surplus of polyunsaturated fatty acids. If preparation of such oils are added to the diet of patients who have received a kidney graft, the function of their white blood cells is hampered, resulting in better acceptance of foreighn material, including the transplanted kidney.
But other foreign and less useful material, such as bacteria and viruses, may also be accepted.
...
Today most deep-frying is done in vegetable oils. Very few know that if polyunsaturated fatty acids are kept hot over many hours, their tendency to produce cancer in laboratory animals increases.
...
The fact that polyunsaturated oils may increase aging was demonstrated by Dr. Edward Pickney. ... he asked a large number of patients how much polyunsaturated oils they usually consumed.
Fifty-four percent of the patients said that they had increased their intake considerably. Of those patients, 78 percent showed marked clinical signs of premature aging, and 60 percent had required the removal of one ore more skin lesions because of suspected malignany. Of the patients who had made no special efforts to consume polyunsaturated oils, thier figures were 18 and 8 percent respectively.
...
In the worldwide epidemiological study of atherosclerosis, the investigators found a connection between the degree of atherosclerosis and the total intake of fat. As there was no association between the intake of saturated fat and atherosclerosis, the association obviously concerned unsaturated fats.
...
The fact that polyunsaturated fats such as corn, soybean and sunflower oils are liquid, even at cold temperatures, has been a problem for oil manufacturers in countries where butter and lard, and not vegetable oil, were traditionally used in the diet. Vegetable oil cannot be spread on bread, give unsatisfactory results in baking and produce burnt and rancid smells when used for frying.
However, ... food technologists invented a method for converting liquid vegetable oil into solid fat. This method ... changes the chemical structure of the polysaturated fatty acids and creates something called trans fatty acids. ... The final product, which is a mixture of various polyunsaturated, saturated and trans fatty acids, is called partially hydrogenated oil and is used as an ingredient in many food products including margarine, crackers, cookies, doughnuts, french fries, potatoe chips, pastries and sweets.
...
... there is experimental evidence that trans fatty acids may inhibit growth. ... After two years the body weight of the mice fed with trans fatty acids was 20-25 percent lower than the weight of the control mice. Thus, although the mice had received exactly the same amount of calories, those who got trans fatty acids instead of other naturally occuring fatty acids did not grow as they should have.
... The consumption of trans fat has increased substantially in most Western countries during the last century.
... very often fat that is called polyunsaturated on the food labels may actually be trans fat, and foods labeled &quot;low-fat&quot; may in fact contain large amounts of fat, particularly trans fat.
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Still wanna pour those vegetable oils onto your foods? Still wanna use margarine in baking?

But, polys are not entirely evil - used in moderation:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What we know for certain is that polyunsaturated fatty acids may produce a great many unfortunate effects, none of them pleasant for human beings. We need polyunsaturated fats in small amounts to keep  us healthy; some of them are even essential to life.</div>From wikipedia on omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">n-3 fatty acids (popularly referred to as [omega]-3 fatty acids or omega-3 fatty acids) are a family of [poly]unsaturated fatty acids which have in common a carbon–carbon double bond in the n-3 position; that is, the third bond from the end of the fatty acid. Important nutritionally essential n-3 fatty acids are: [alpha]-linolenic acid (ALA), eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).
...
n-6 fatty acids (popularly referred to as [omega]-6 fatty acids or omega-6 fatty acids) are a family of [poly]unsaturated fatty acids which have in common a carbon–carbon double bond in the n-6 position; that is, the sixth bond from the end of the fatty acid. Linoleic acid (18:2, n-6), the shortest-chained n-6 fatty acid, is an essential fatty acid. Arachidonic acid (20:4) is a physiologically significant n-6 fatty acid and is the precursor for prostaglandins and other physiologically active molecules.</div>
 
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(nkl @ May 22 2008,11:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Still wanna pour those vegetable oils onto your foods? Still wanna use margarine in baking?</div>
Why lump everything into one thing?

Not all vegetable oils are high in n-6 fatty acids and not all margerines actually contain hydrogenated fat.

If I go to my fridge I have a margerine and some good butter from grass fed moo cows.

The margerine has 0.8% of its fatty acids as trans isomers.

The butter has somewhere around 5%
 
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(stevejones @ May 22 2008,4:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">with the exception of animal milk, it must be good for me.</div>so what's wrong with cheese</div>
Milk contains lactose, a know allergen. It's not surprising that many of us become lactose intolerant after we've been weaned.

If I'm not mistaken, fresh cheese such as cottage cheese contains a lot of lactose compared to aged or old cheese such as blue or triple cream. So that would constitute an exception for me at least. Not that I'm intolerant but lactose is a sugar and I don't eat sugar.
 
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(drpierredebs @ May 22 2008,4:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">martin talks nonsense-ignore him. I read two of the papers he refers to about glaucoma and one about fat metabolism. He does not know how to read and comprehend scientific literature.</div>
I could say the same about you. But I don't. Because I'm polite. Unlike you.
 
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(nkl @ May 22 2008,5:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
If you want to know more, and want to know the truth, read The Colesterol Myths, by Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD. His book is the most well researched book I've ever read.
...</div>
Speaking of cholesterol, this will shed more light on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPPYaVcXo1I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xrr8MjDJ78&amp;feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xrr8MjDJ78&amp;feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xrr8MjDJ78&amp;feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xrr8MjDJ78&amp;feature=related
 
I buy Cabot's Cheddar Cheese at wally world


http://www.cabotcheese.com/f1.php?....top.php


&quot;7.  . The Lactose Myth. Aged cheeses, such as Cabot’s naturally aged cheddar contain 0 grams of lactose. Contrary to popular belief, unlike many dairy products, cheese in general is extremely low in lactose - most has 1 gram or less per serving - and therefore should not cause any lactose intolerance related symptoms. &quot;
 
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(stevejones @ May 22 2008,6:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I buy Cabot's Cheddar Cheese at wally world


http://www.cabotcheese.com/f1.php?....top.php


&quot;7. . The Lactose Myth. Aged cheeses, such as Cabot’s naturally aged cheddar contain 0 grams of lactose. Contrary to popular belief, unlike many dairy products, cheese in general is extremely low in lactose - most has 1 gram or less per serving - and therefore should not cause any lactose intolerance related symptoms. &quot;</div>
I buy Saint-Andre triple cream cheese at La Vielle Europe here in Montreal:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-andr%C3%A9_(fromage)

One of those would constitute a whole meal for me.
 
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(Martin Levac @ May 22 2008,6:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"></div>
Fine, but what I'm getting at is 0 grams is 0 grams....so if I'm trying to avoid all sugar in this little experiment of mine, I can eat as much cabot's as I want, right?
 
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(stevejones @ May 22 2008,6:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fine, but what I'm getting at is 0 grams is 0 grams....so if I'm trying to avoid all sugar in this little experiment of mine, I can eat as much cabot's as I want, right?</div>
Yeah, that's what I think too.
 
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(Aaron_F @ May 22 2008,12:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(nkl @ May 22 2008,11:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Still wanna pour those vegetable oils onto your foods? Still wanna use margarine in baking?</div>
Why lump everything into one thing?

Not all vegetable oils are high in n-6 fatty acids and not all margerines actually contain hydrogenated fat.

If I go to my fridge I have a margerine and some good butter from grass fed moo cows.

The margerine has 0.8% of its fatty acids as trans isomers.

The butter has somewhere around 5%</div>
I use flax seed oil myself (in moderation). What I mean is that we should take care not to overdose with polyunsaturated fats, especially if there are in the hydrogenated form. Since this book was published the public awareness of trans fats have made products containing these unhealthy fats a lot fewer. But there are still media reports of hidden trans fats in various products popping up every now and then. The market is being sanitized.
 
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