'Eating for Size''article does not give amounts of

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by Ruhl, Apr 25, 2003.

  1. Ruhl

    Ruhl New Member

    Does HST recomend certain amounts of micronutrients intake for optimal growth and injury prevention? If so, what are the figures for these micronutrients?
     
  2. Dianabol

    Dianabol Guest

    Dear Ruhl,

    The micronutrient guidelines in "Eating for Size" is perhaps, somewhat scant.

    But if you were to be getting the majority of your carbohydrates from fresh fruit, leafy salads and wholegrains, you can be sure that you are getting a good dose of vitamins and minerals.

    Persuant to that, it still is recommended that you take:

    2-3gm of Vitamin C
    1gm Vit E
    1-3gm Magnesium Aspartate
    20mg zinc
    100mg CoQ10
    Plant-based anti-oxidant extracts e.g. grapeseed, lycopene etc.
    100mcg Selenium
    2400mcg folic acid
    B Complex vitamins -for ample B12 and B6
    Fish Oils (for EFAs) up to 10gm a day
    CLA - up to 6gm a day

    HST itself has no outright recommendations as to micronutrient intake. If you go to the Life Extension Website at: www.lef.org you can find rather extensive guidelines on micronutrient intake.

    Godspeed and happy HSTing :)
     
  3. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    I do not think there has been any real research on specific nutrients requirements and muscle growth. But in terms of strength/sporting performance, additional supplements above that required for preventing deficiency has shown no real improvement.

    In addition, supplemental vitamins (more specifically antioxidants, but most) show no real benefit to health. Food containing these vitamins do.
     
  4. Mindwraith

    Mindwraith New Member

    Aaron is right for the most part, however I'm not so sure that vitamin supplements (i.e. vitamin c, e, d) don't work as intended. They are just that, supplements for when you don't get what you need in your diet. I can't stand veggies, I still eat them but no where near the quantity that would fulfill the RDA. Most of the vitamins I get come from oats, milk and wheat. The most supplements will do is help you reach your RDA, which is important for overall health. If you don't feel like buying supplements just eat a bowl of total and drink your orange juice.

    He's right in that vitamins haven't really shown to support or improve physical growth. In other words just get your RDA's and worry more about eating for growth.

    There is some evidence however from a couple of studies which show that calcium helps to promote fat loss. But other than that the best it will do is build bone density which is important when lifting weights and preventing bone problems later on in life.
     
  5. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    there is no doubt they work, but its not just the supplements that we want. When there is a correlation between say vitamin C and preventing cancer, what actually caused that. The food that vitamin c is carried in (along with all the other chemicals/phytonutrients) or the vitamin c itself?

    Food is better, vitamins cannot make up for that, well not until they can blend down 5lbs of veges into a small handy pill
     
  6. Mindwraith

    Mindwraith New Member

    Its been tested in many case studies that vitamin C alone is what prevents scurvy and boosts the immune system in its ability to fight disease. I'm not sure where you're getting your doubts on this but this has been a known fact for several years now.

    Food is better, but not for the reasons you mention.
     
  7. Ruhl

    Ruhl New Member

    So I don't need additional vit/min in pill form in order to grow?

    What about vit C for example? When I took 1g of vit C in addition to what I get from my diet, I recovered quicker.
     
  8. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    I was using vitamin C as an example. Beyond the effect of prevention of scurvey (~10-20mg.day) and potentially increasing antioxidant protection (usually 200-500mg tops)there isnt a huge amount of benefit of huge doses.

    THe more common one that I should hasve used is beta-carotene and vitmain E. Vitamin E for example is associated with decreased risk of heart disease in long term cohort work. In supplemental trials, it shows no benifit at all (in some cases, short term anti-oxidant research shows no improvment in A/O status when supplementing with high amounts of vit E).

    In terms of vit C alone, eating foods rich in vit C will provide more benifit than any amount of vit C supplementation.
     
  9. Cliner9er

    Cliner9er New Member

    It all goes into the whole food vs. isolated micronutrient argument. (aka chicken or the egg). Is it the whole food and the synergistic effects of food or the isolated micro. Research in many isolated nutrients is poor especially the isolated Vit. E correaltion to heart disease risk.
     
  10. Ruhl

    Ruhl New Member

    I was taking 1 iron tablet a day (5mg elemental iron among other things to help digest it). Now I have found a tablet that is 21 times stronger (105mg iron). Would taking large amounts or vit/min in such a convenient form as a single tablet be good for hypertrophy or just potentially dangerous?
     
  11. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Dont take iron unless you have a diagnosed iron deficiency. Excessive Iron isnt good, especially for men.
     
  12. Vitamin C actually has a slight anti-hypertrophic effect (Bryan avoids taking it around workouts.) I don't fret over that small factor; I prefer being more resistant to colds and such.

    Iron is not necessary for men; most eat so much iron-rich meat that they have an excess of iron. We don't bleed very often these days, either. The extra iron just increases free radical damage in the body. Most "just for men" multivitamins these days omit iron entirely. The good ones, anyway.

    LEF is definitely a biased source, but they do provide some good info. Their recommendations have nothing to do with hypertrophy, though. They're all about trying to increase lifespan.
     
  13. TheCrown

    TheCrown New Member

    @dianabol:

    at first I'd like to thank you!

    very good, intelligent posts you make!

    'd like to know where you got this supplementation regime from?

    especially the magnesium aspertate seems interesting!

    how does recommend this regime or where do you have it from?

    thx [​IMG]
     
  14. TheCrown

    TheCrown New Member

  15. Dianabol

    Dianabol Guest

    Dear TheCrown,

    My apologies for my tardy reply. Your message has been replied (check your inbox).

    On the magnesium aspartate, it's about the magnesium lottery. Read more about it at www.drumlib.com

    Godspeed, and happy HSTing :)
     
  16. Janne

    Janne New Member

    Just some food for thought: This study suggests that vitamin C supplementation after an injury increases tissue damage and oxidative stress, which, if I'm not mistaken, could be benifitial for hypertrophy.
     
  17. TheCrown

    TheCrown New Member

    Hello,

    thx dianabol for your link, but I don't know where you found that information on that site? do you have a direct link?

    anyway, I think that THIS thread should get much, much more attention.

    there are studies that tell clearly that people with mineral, and vitamin deficiencies and imbalaces CAN'T build muscle!

    I think that you could tune up hypertrophy greatly by the right supplements!

    Magnesium seems very, VERY important! There are some studies that say directly that magnesium enhances muscle hypertrophy!

    I have a theory that potassium and copper supplementation will make muscle hypertrophy MUCH easier!
    and by the way you get healthier!

    Originally everyone associates BodyBuilders WITH healthy people!
    I think that only healthy people can put on REALLY muscle mass.

    Therefore this topic should get much more attention.

    dianabol, what be nice, if you can give me a direct link.

    anyway, read the texts under

    getbig.com

    there is a text with the most important minerals and vitamins for bodybuiling.

    its a real goot introduction!



    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    Just so people don't think I don't think micronutrients are important, let me say that I think micronutrients are very important.

    However, my approach is to ensure adequate micronutrient as indicated by the individuals particular needs. In other words, body size, immune status, emotional stress, activity level, and macronutrient ratios can effect an individuals need for various micronutrients.

    In fact, I had even designed a multi Vit/Mineral as part of the HSN line for individuals engaging in high levels of exercise. It is a simple matter of supply & demand that prevents me from producing it. I just can't compete with the big vitamin producers. [​IMG]

    So, yes, I think micronutrients are important. And yes, I think phytochemicals are also important. More on phytochemicals later. ;)
     
  19. Janne

    Janne New Member

    Given that some antioxidants may hinder hypertrophy by reducing oxadative stress, do you think they should be avoided immediately before and/or after workouts?
     
  20. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    Well, its like using a machine the has so much friction that the eccentric portion of an exercise becomes much lighter than the concentric portion. Sure, it will still work, but it could work a little better if the eccentric portion was just as heavy...like free weights.

    So, to answer your question, yeah, I avoid antioxidants right before training. After all, we want oxidative stress to go up in order to create a good stimulus.
     

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