FAQ re: post-WO

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]This was the original quote, for which you took credit:

"Take your protein without (or with less) carbs immediately after you workout. This will allow more amino acids to skirt past your enterocytes and liver and make it into the blood stream where they are taken up by skeletal muscle."

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I don't recall saying anything AT ALL about insulin having any effect whatsoever on amino acids or any other foods stuffs before they are actually absorbed into the blood. For you to insinuate this tells me you are just looking for a sparing match, and aren't really interested in helping other people on the board.


By suggesting that this would happen when taking protein without carbs, you implied that insulin plays a role in amino acid absorption.
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You're right. What I meant to convey was that a greater percentage of a single dose of protein might reach your muscles if there isn't a lot of insulin at that moment. I did not mean to sound as if there was a way to absorb protein without your intestines or enterocytes.

All I meant, based on those studies looking at the effects of carbs/insulin on regional protein deposition, was that its possible that if I take 20 grams of protein without carbs, I might get a greater percentage of thost 20 grams to make it through first pass metabolism by the splanchnic bed, and therefor be available for uptake in the muscle.

On top of this, research on Eukaryotic Initiation factors have made me further question the benefits of so many post workout carbs for well fed bodybuilders. Not to start another thread but it doesn't hurt to figure out what direct role, if any, carbohydrates play in post workout protein synthesis. For the sake of body composition, I like to maximize amino acid uptake into muscle (hence the Primer) without relying on so much sugar intake.
 
Thanks for the clarification, Bryan. You posts on nongenomic steroid activation made me think that if such was possible, anything was. So, once you admitted to having written that, I was just wondering if my understanding of the implicit was accurate. Like you said, just a misunderstanding. I certainly didn't mean to escalate this any further than that.

Blade, you take things way too personally. I prefaced all our arguments by saying that I'm not an expert and expect to find fault in myself. That I contradict myself (not that I see them as contradictions per se) only shows my willingness to change if wrong. I've admitted this many times, how many more would you like? You want to keep looking for what I wrote 6 months ago, go ahead. But it is not indicative of my views now. I thought that was made clear. BTW, I'm 21
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(not that it should matter).

Gene
 
No, I don't take it personally at all - I just observe that you get into arguments with other people on other forums, and often where HST, Bryan Haycock or Lyle McDonald are mentioned. Just conspicuous behaviour that led me to make my previous statements.

I'm glad we all figured out and agreed on this subject, though.
 
since this thread became so pointless anyway, ill add something else irrelevant:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Eukaryotic Initiation factors
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I take it you mean 'transcription factors'?
Ive never known them to be called 'initiation factors' before.
Hey maybe that will open up a whole new region of previously unread papers for me!
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you learn something new everyday!

7th feb 03- just found out that eukaryotic initiation factors have nothing to do with transcription. they are for initiation of translation.
Again something completely irrelvent for all except me! HAHAHAH
 
Thank you Bryan for simplifying a very well......simple process. I had this exact same question regarding macronutrient intake pre and post workout and wanted some feedback from what I consider the most intelligent forum on exercise and nutrition on the Internet. Certain forum members blasted me with "I need references" BS. Some people need to stick with the basic gist of the questions. I believe tai4ji2x wanted some clarification on a post in the FAQ section, not a bunch of crap about enterocytes and splanchnic beds. Bryan clearly answered the question in the context of bulking, leaning out and gaining while leaning in very clear detail. You reference mongers are clogging up threads with all this verbal diahhrea. I come here to expand my knowledge on my specialty which is exercise and nutrition. I probably have the same if not more academia credentials than many of you on this forum. I don't need by self-esteem massaged with my handy-dandy reference links. So I suggest to try to stick to the points of the posts without turning something good into battle of the journal reference stars. :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Bryan Haycock @ Feb. 05 2003,7:16)]Not to start another thread but it doesn't hurt to figure out what direct role, if any, carbohydrates play in post workout protein synthesis.
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I agree, I don't think a "regulatory" effect of insulin has been established in vivo. However, wouldn't you say that a direct suppressive effect on protein breakdown has been more clearly elucidated?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I had this exact same question regarding macronutrient intake pre and post workout and wanted some feedback from what I consider the most intelligent forum on exercise and nutrition on the Internet. Certain forum members blasted me with "I need references" BS. Some people need to stick with the basic gist of the questions. I believe tai4ji2x wanted some clarification on a post in the FAQ section, not a bunch of crap about enterocytes and splanchnic beds. Bryan clearly answered the question in the context of bulking, leaning out and gaining while leaning in very clear detail. You reference mongers are clogging up threads with all this verbal diahhrea. I come here to expand my knowledge on my specialty which is exercise and nutrition. I probably have the same if not more academia credentials than many of you on this forum. I don't need by self-esteem massaged with my handy-dandy reference links. So I suggest to try to stick to the points of the posts without turning something good into battle of the journal reference stars.
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Cliner9er:

You said: "I believe tai4ji2x wanted some clarification on a post in the FAQ"
Then: "not a bunch of crap about enterocytes and splanchnic beds"
[Note -- this about a question dealing explicitly about enterocytes and the liver (ie, splanchnic bed)]

What you like --- this is "the most intelligent forum on exercise and nutrition"
But, what you don't like --- I didn't "stick with the basic gist of the question"

Why you are here --- to "expand my knowledge on my specialty which is exercise and nutrition"
But, what you don't want --- "handy-dandy reference links" (for your specialty)

How you finish your post --- with academia credentials
But, what you don't like about this thread --- citing of journal references

Please forgive my asking, but isn't it very obvious that your dissatisfaction rests on logical contradictions?

Gene
 
Gene, Gene the quote machine. I see you had to regroup and edit your responses from your previous reply. You must have came up with some more "witty" responses to impress the forum. For no other reason than to pacify your pathetic desire to misconstrue statements from resident experts in protein metabolism. Haycock, McDonald and Blade have probably forgot more than you have ever REALLY learned. So go ahead and spend another half hour digging through your text books and pull quotes from statements I am sure everyone will be dazzled by your comments. For now I am going to have my pre-workout shake without carbs or maybe with carbs, but I may turn into a big ball of goo if I do that. Oh no.
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Cliner9er @ Feb. 07 2003,6:38)]Certain forum members blasted me with "I need references" BS
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Nobody blasted you.
What you said was 'I read a French study ...... Any thoughts on this study? Has anyone seen it? Should I change my thinking? Thank you in advance."
If we dont know what study you are referering to, how can we comment?
Without references to provide some degree of evidence, how does one think that people make up their minds over something. How could Bryan devise HSt wihtout any research (Guess? well it worked for the old trainers). Would anyone have believed him that training 3x week fullbody can work? if he didnt provide adequate referencing.
References are your friend
 
I won't cite references, cuz certain forum members don't like it, but let me comment about carbs.

I have been doin my readings a bit, and it seems that, post-workout, one needs to up the high GI carb intake ALONG with protein.

The reason is that you want a biggest anabolic spike you want post-exercise. As it turns out, without insulin spike that you get from high GI carb ingestion, there simply won't be full anabolism.

The protein ingestion will increase/initiate anabolic process, but the presence of insulin will amplify it. Not to mention that insulin prevents muscle breakdown (proteolysis).

You need an optimal combination of protein and high GI carbs post-workout.
 
I am nearly a profane but I also have always been reading that the best anabolic post workout enviroment is given by protein+HGI carbs.
As my faith in science and Bryan's accuracy is firm,if he tells me that more protein are delivered to muscles when assumed without carbs I trust him.Now my question is:if problem lies only in proteins transit over gut why not take only fast proteins(whey/whey idrolized)+BCAA immediatly after workout
and take HGI as soon we are sure aminoacids are alredy in the blood?Cant we in this way drive the max possible aminos to muscle still having high insulin rate?

I apologise for my ugly English and I hope what I wrote is clear
 
If you took a fast protein just before your workout, and your workout doesn't take all day, those aminos are still in your bloodstream.

The slow protein will get in fast enough, but it will last much longer, providing nourishment during recovery.
 
All this is very interesting. But here's something from a recent (11/02) Lyle McDonald interview:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Lyle M: Anyhow, the conundrum we're faced with is this: Which is more important, improving muscular recovery/avoiding muscle loss by spiking insulin OR keeping fat burning going by not spiking insulin?
Wannabebig: That's the million-dollar question isn't it?
Lyle M: Well, this is the question I go around and around and around on in my head. Right now, I have to think (especially based on the fact that insulin levels just don't seem to be that big of a deal overall) that recovery/slowing catabolism is the more important facet. That is, fat loss is going to be mainly caused by the caloric deficit. And muscle loss is enough of a problem to begin with. I think a post-workout carb/protein drink is the better choice. Of course, you still have to count those calories towards the daily total but I think that's the better way to go.
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You can probably find many authorities supporting the exact opposite. Lyle himself was swearing by the keto diet for a long time, only to admit later that "I really wanted it to be true, but it seems that finally it all comes down to caloric balance".
So, what should the average bodybuilder (e.g. the one without a PhD) do ? I don't know, but I will stick with my high carb post-workout meal, just because it's being proven effective by generations of bodybuilders. Will I get fat ? No, I will not, because it actually DOES come down to caloric balance. Well, some clever tweaks may allow you to ingest 50-100 kcals more per day and get away with it, but I guess it doesn't really matter, right ? And even if I get 5 grams fatter by including carbs in my post-workout meal, I guess this too doesn't really matter, right ?
 
My favourite postworkoutshake:
300 ml nonfatmilk, 4 scoops of chocolate dextrose powder, 10 scoops of caseinprotein.
fills me up nicely, but not too much,
gives me fast carbs , but not too much,
gives me lots of protein and a small bit of fat.

eat a banana along with the shake.

have a half a pound of steak, some potatoes or rice, and a fresh salad, an hour or so after the shake.

Not too scientific, i know.
But it does grow some muscle.

bye
andré
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]4 scoops of chocolate dextrose powder, 10 scoops of caseinprotein
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How many grams of protein does this shake give you ?? !!
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I wish I was your protein supplier
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yes, ten scoops.
but dont worry : each scoop contains 3 grams powder, guys. together with the 300 cc milk the total protein-content of the shake is 40 grams. not such a monster shake, i guess.

i am curious: how large did you think my scoops were?

bye and keep on pumping eh?....

andré
 
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