High Carb vs. High Fat

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by Rippt, Nov 28, 2003.

  1. Rippt

    Rippt New Member

    I know Bryan is more of an advocate of high carbs for gaining size but... How does the high fat/cyclical high carb diet compare?

    Here is the premise:

    High Fat: Insulin is low most of the time so fat supposedly can't make it into fat cells while the EXTREMELY high calories and slight test boost from the high fat support growth. Additionally, the carb-loads serve to boost insulin and IGF-1 when there is room for carbs in muscle glycogen.

    High carb, low fat: There are just enough excess calories (but not nearly as much as in the high fat diet) to support growth. However, insulin is more commonly present to help ingested protein "make it" into muscle tissue.
     
  2. DrPhil

    DrPhil New Member

    The claim that the human body cant store fat without carbs is bullshit, IMO. [​IMG]
     
  3. stevie

    stevie New Member

    that doesnt have to be the case.
     
  4. Blade

    Blade Super Moderator Staff Member

    Both fats and aminos can make it into cells just fine without the presence of carbs or insulin.
     
  5. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    That's right, fat cells do not require insulin to be stored. In short, the body will eventually reach equilibrium on any diet, high carb, low carb, high fat, or whatever. You can go an a zero carb diet and stop losing weight even with lots of exercise. This is because the body will increase its ability to store fat in response to it being the only fuel source.

    The easiest way to avoid fat storage is to reduce the amount of fat in the diet, and to use sufficient cardio.

    I do use low carb dieting however and feel it is most effective to increase the body's ability to mobilize stored fat.
     
  6. Rippt

    Rippt New Member

    So you would use low carbs with low fat?
     
  7. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    You should eat less calories.

    THat is the most important factor.

    After that, you are looking at the overall fat balance for the day. If you eat 500kcal over maintenance, some of course will be used to repair muscle (as long as you are stimulating the damage :)) but the remainder will be stored as fat (even if your diet is protein and fat only)

    Fat intake + fat oxidised = fat balance

    high fat diets raise fat intake and low carb diets raise fat oxdiation, = balance

    too much fat intake and low carb diet = +ve fat balance (if cal +ve)
    too little fat intake and low carb diet = -ve fat balance (if cal -ve)

    too much fat and higher carb = +ve fat balance (ic cal +ve)
    low fat + higher carbs = -ve fat balance (if cal -ve)

    a +ve caloric high carb low fat diet will still cuase a +ve fat balance (storing all the fat you eat as well as potentially making some more)
     
  8. Mindwraith

    Mindwraith New Member

    You guys and your carbs and fat debates. IT DOESNT MATTER. Calories are the only thing that really matters when bulking or cutting. So when asking carbs or fat, I say cut or increase both of them in a wide variety of ways so you dont get burnt out on limited food choices. You wanna cut calories and eat more? Eat less fat, fat is the most calorie dense. This is so easy and has been for a while, there are SOO many fat free things to eat out there it would blow your mind. If you drink soft drinks a lot drink diet (sprite and crystal lite taste the most like regular).

    The only macronutrient I really concern myself with is protein, and even then it seems through much experimentation the overall protein levels aren't as important as the pre/post workout shake. While I do aim for 1g/lb in protein that ends up being +/- 40g on any given day. This isn't an exact science, don't over analyze it.

    So in summary, forget about macronutrients and focus on calories only. Its as simple as it was in your grandmother's day. Eat more and train hard to gain muscle, eat less and train hard to lose fat.
     
  9. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Simple,

    you cant say its simple

    Bodybuilders dont like simple :)

    they like myth, and philosophy and HIT and and...

    [​IMG]
     
  10. jboy

    jboy New Member

    The whole diet/nutrition aspect of bodybuilding has been by far the most frustrating and difficult piece of the puzzle for me! Everywhere you turn you get one contradictory opinion after another. No matter where you stand on macronutrients ratios and the timing of their consumption, you’re going to find plenty of others who disagree with you. I suppose some of this stems from the fact that different people respond differently to different diets. I also think that many different diets can produce similar results.

    With that said, I’ve personally found that restricted carb diets (not to be confused with no-carb) work better for me when it comes to losing the most fat and maintaining maximum muscle. Personally I think pure CDK sucks! I have no energy to train without carbs in my diet. On the other hand, just being in a calorie deficit drains my energy, so restricting carbs to pre and post workout doesn’t effect me much beyond that of a high-carb calorie-restricted diet.

    One last thing…I definitely disagree that a calorie is a calorie! Not with my body anyway! JMHO as always!
     
  11. pete69

    pete69 New Member

    Bryan, I never heard that before. Eating a zero carb, high fat diet will lead to increased fat storage b/c it is your only energy source. From what research are you drawing that from? I'd love to know since i'm currently on a zero carb, moderate-high fat diet and want to know if this is happening.

    Also, even with no carbs, isn't there plenty of glucose being generated via gluconeogenesis, so the body is still using some glucose for fuel?
     
  12. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    The only time that low carb diets increase fat storage is once fat intake is greater than fat oxidation. This generally occurs at caloric balance.
     
  13. Lance

    Lance New Member

    I've come to the conclusion over time from reading these boards that calories make the most difference. I like to eat lower carbs, i feel they tend to aid leanness whether bulking or cutting. This may just be a visual trick due to the lack of water retention when eating lower carbs.

    Being as calories are what matter ... the only other thing that i worry about is muscle glycogen or muscle fullness. I worry that by eating lower carbs, my muscles are going to get flat, or they aren't going to be as full as they can be/look.

    Any comments?
     
  14. vicious

    vicious New Member

    It helps to schedule most of the carbs (with some fat) after your workout for 4 hours or so. That will facilitate glycogen upload.

    cheers,
    Jules
     
  15. VIPER

    VIPER New Member

    I also agree that calories are probably the most important factor as I've seen this myslelf as well. What I'm wondering is how much carbs are enough to load the muscles close to or at normal levels of glycogen storage? I am saying this referring more to a diet when using HST not the UD2. The amount of carbs will be dependant upon the individual, but what would be a rough estimate for say a 190 pound person. The only time I cut carbs significantly less is when I am dieting down but that's to get less total calories.
     
  16. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Are we talking about caloric intake under training conditions, or maintenance or dieting?

    If it's with reference to either of the latter two, but more so dieting, then surely the Atkins Diet needs to be brought in. A high fat, high protein diet with extremely low carbs, which has shown results. Whether or not it's otherwise healthy or not is a different discussion, but the diet itself has weight loss results.

    How does this weigh in (no pun) to the discussion? Well it seems somewhat evident that the uptake of carbs and fats are different and/or the mechanism of storing fats in adipose tissue is initiated to different degrees depending on diet.

    i.e. the body may ingest x-number of calories, but only uptake/use/store a portion of them, dependent on what type of calorie they are.

    I'm prob. taking a couple of token steps in the logic, but just seems that way.
     
  17. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    I dont relaly understand what you are asking

    Yes, the atkins diet can result in weight loss

    but so can a high carb low fat diet
     
  18. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Ok.......shooting me down if that's the case [​IMG]
     

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