Is whey really needed?

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imported_electric

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I'd like a piece of your wisdom guys. I ran out of Whey and while shopping for a new tube I wondered, since it is so expensive it is really necessary or it is just a convenient way of getting protein.
I workout during the morning so I have breakfast with milk and eggs and around 2 hours after working out I have a meat-fest lunch. I usually have around 400g of meat for lunch which gives me something like 100g of protein. Added the other meals, in the end of the day I still get enough protein and calories without the whey shakes.
Is there a noticeable advantage in adding the whey protein shake 15-30 minutes after my lifting session (due to timing) or since I am already getting a sufficient amount of protein per day the advantage is minimal?
 
No. Whey is just for convenience. As long as you get protein before and after the workout, and your total daily intake is good, it won't really matter a whole lot.
 
Thanks for the answer Tot. Considering that I get my protein around 2-3 hours after my workout and in the form of meat (slow digesting) is it still ok or am I missing a window of opportunity and therefore getting less hypertrophy?
 
I don't think it will be a big deal... you'll likely still have plenty of protein in you from breakfast, right? I guess if you wanted to be sure, you could take a preworkout shake and no post, since you'll be eating later, and thereby at least use less whey so the stuff will last a lot longer.
 
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(Totentanz @ Oct. 27 2008,12:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">No.  Whey is just for convenience.  As long as you get protein before and after the workout, and your total daily intake is good, it won't really matter a whole lot.</div>
Whey is just for convenience, but I have been starting to question if our consumption of 1g/lb is even needed. As long as you have the protein around your workout, I think 0.5g/lb could work. In order to cut calories over the past few months, and to save some money, I have cut protein down to such levels. The mirror says my body looks more cut and my muscles un-touched. I may have the right genes or I am just not seeing the muscle losses, but I think the high protein levels of 200-300g/day are not necessary. Anyone care to debate?
 
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(colby2152 @ Nov. 07 2008,9:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Totentanz @ Oct. 27 2008,12:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">No.  Whey is just for convenience.  As long as you get protein before and after the workout, and your total daily intake is good, it won't really matter a whole lot.</div>
Whey is just for convenience, but I have been starting to question if our consumption of 1g/lb is even needed.  As long as you have the protein around your workout, I think 0.5g/lb could work.  In order to cut calories over the past few months, and to save some money, I have cut protein down to such levels.  The mirror says my body looks more cut and my muscles un-touched.  I may have the right genes or I am just not seeing the muscle losses, but I think the high protein levels of 200-300g/day are not necessary.  Anyone care to debate?</div>
ive seen people proposing diets any where from 500grams of protien to 8000cals a day. i think these are complete overkill unless you are at the pinicle of bodybuilding.

if you are using resistance training while dieting, its suprising how you can drop your callories down and still maintain muscle mass, however i still believe that 200grams plus is needed to grow(depending on the subjects lbm).
 
i think lcars makes a good point with regards to growing and the absurd pro. and cal levels. as far as colbys comments though, depending on bw, i dont think 2-300g of pro is high (for a lifter, bodybuilder)

here is what i think...... all of this is considering avg. joe trainer, middle of the road genetics, decent w/o program.

i prefer to take a real life approach to these things.

all macros are essential and serve a purpose. protein is the most important when it comes to this particular pursuit. of course carbs and fat are important (each in their own way) but without adeq. pro. intake its all pointless. 1g of pro. per lb of BW seems to be a pretty good level for most folks trying to either gain mass or lose wgt (while still maint. lbm).

here is the real life part.

can you gain wgt while getting in only .5g of pro (per lb)? certainly, as long as your in cal surplus. will it affect your p-ratio negatively (more fat then muscle)? possibly, since we are talking about joe avg. if your talking about a 200lb guy here thats 100g of pro per day. thats about 1 large chicken breast, 2-4 glasses of milk and a protein shake. the rest would of course be carbs and fat. doesnt sound like the ideal recipe for more muscle then fat gain.

can you lose wgt while getting in .5g of protein? absolutely, as long as your in cal deficit. can you maint. the muscle? possibly, but again we are talking joe avg. look at the 200lb man again, at .5g thats 100 grams of pro. which comes out to 400 calories. a typical dieter of this size (trying to keep some mass) will prob. be in the 1500-2500 cal range depending on goals etc. well that means youve got anywhere from 1100 to 2100 cals to take in from carbs and fat. doesnt sound like the ideal recipe for fat loss and muslce retention.

bottom line for me is the fact that adequate pro. intake puts me in the best possible position to gain lbm when bulking and maint. the max amount when cutting. personally i dont think .5g would put me in that &quot;best possible&quot; position, perhaps it would put me in the &quot;just enough&quot; position but then again maybe not.

as long as adeq. amount of fat and carbs are in place for your goals (bulk or cut) then protein is where you can real make some progress. imo it has a high ceiling before it becomes too much and just a waste but has a dangerous bottom level (which im sure is very indiv.) that once reached could undo a lot of hard work and effort.
 
I'd be more inclined to jack protein way high while cutting than while bulking (at the very minimum 1.5 gr/ lb LBM)

This is fuzzy, anecdotal, and unscientific, but I'm sure the only time I lost muscle on my marathon cut was when I lowered protein to 140 gr/day. Let me explain.

For me, the macros on RFL would have been something like 225-300 gr protein/trace fat/trace carbs

On UD2.0, they'd be something like 150-225 protein/50-70 gr carb/rest fat

When going with the lower end of option two's set up for my diet days (150 gr protein), I saw things happen that I didn't like. This could be entirely coincidental, but I still haven't gotten my bicep size/strength entirely back and I won't do it again!

Its worth noting that apparently Lyle deems this two macro set ups more or less equivalent. The extra carbs on a UD2.0 diet day 'make up' for the lower protein as compared to PSMF, and exert a protein sparing effect.

For me, I don't buy it.

I think you can go much lower while bulking, but the advantage of eating high protein of course, is better hunger control (for me anyway), and possibly allowing greater total food intake due to the thermic effect of protein contra fat and carbohydrate. I wouldn't be surprised if it exerts minimal but perhaps significant to the neurotic, effects on p ratio.

FWIW colby, i believe the majority of the protein we eat helps us grow goes via other mechanisms than what are strictly speaking, anabolic pathways.

I remember Colgan stating years back that you could &quot;grow Tarzan from a teaspoon of protein.&quot; All the rest is to create a milleu in which that growth can happen in the first place via anti catabolic effects, hyperaminoacidemia, replacing protein that's oxidized as fuel, etc.
 
Wow, a lot of scientific explanations and good info. I'd like to answer the original question in more simpler (for me) terms.

The question was, &quot;Is whey protein necessary&quot;? The answer is, I believe,  yes and no.

The total calories and macro nutrient management is the key. So, if you are getting enough protein in your diet, at the right times, then no, whey is not necessary. If you are not getting enough protein in your diet plan, then, yes, whey would be necessary to supplement the macro-nutrient ration.

If I am getting the necessary 1gm (or whatever) ratio in my plan, then no more would be needed.

However, eating 6 times a day, I am having to supplement my plan with about 3 whey protein drinks a day to meet my nutrient rations.

I see these guys at work, that are just starting to work out, go and buy every stinking supplement on the shelf - because they see &quot;everybody&quot; else doing it. SO, I ask them &quot;why&quot; they are taking protein, and they can't tell me. So, I then help them determine their calories and macro breakdown, then show them where protein fits into their plan. Other than that, they were drinking stinking milkshakes all day and not knowing why!

Just my two cents. Am I in the ballgame?  
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I gave in and bought some egg protein, which is way cheaper. In any case my question was really considering that I am getting enough daily protein in my diet through other means (milk, eggs and meat), from 150-200g/day. What I wanted to know was if the fact that Whey has a higher BV then these other protein sources and that whey can be used with a better timing (15-30 minutes after working out) and is digested faster has a significant impact in lbm gain or if the only significant variable is daily protein intake.
 
Sorry electric. Apparently I misunderstood your question, and rambled on during my early AM - not had coffee yet rambling! My answer doesn't apply to your question. Now it's time to head back to the coffee pot!
 
Tim, don't worry. Although it was not what I originally asked, your post is relevant and might help other viewers reading this thread.
I agree with you that Whey is a fantastic aid to help reach a daily protein intake, specially for the heavier weighted lifters. Specially because protein from meat blunts hunger and makes it really tough to eat enough during a bulk.
 
I think there are enough studies showing pre WO protein + during WO protein both elevate PS

During WO: You want a fast protein that raises insulin during WO and is gut easy, so whey is 'necessary' if you want to try to reap the benefits of during WO nurtition. You won't be walking around with an omelet in the gym, obviously.

Pre WO: Is 50 grams of mixed whole food 2-3 hrs before WO just as good as a buncha whey 30-60 mins before workout? I don't know, but I'd guess no.

Post WO: You want slower digesting anti catabolic goodies here anyway, which is why Lyle advocates MPI (80% Casein/20% Whey). When I queried about whole food vs MPI post workout, he said there's one study or so looking at this and it was with odd parameters that wouldn't exactly apply to most of us.

I'm pretty sure Martin Berkhan only uses whole food himself, pre and post, and his physique is as good as it gets for a nattie his size. I wouldn't invoke genetics b/c he's posted pics of himself looking like fat sloppy ****. So obviously whole food only is good enough.

how much does it really help/differ then, to use whey pre/during vs whole food? I don't know that this can be quantified, but I'm sure it has *some* positive effect.

And I its taken me 9 weeks to barely gain 2 lbs, so do the opposite of everything I say and you'll do fine
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yeah I was actually drinking MPI pre/during WO for a while with no problem

the only con that came up at BR if I recall, is MPI tends to be heavier on the gut and make you feel like yacking if you drink it during exercise vs whey

I never had a problem
 
I prefer whey over mpi, especially at the concentrations that i generally stick with, i find it too thick and chalky
 
here is something i came across today that speaks again to the amount of protein when dieting.......its from martin berkhans IF blog. http://leangains.com/

Q: Why is protein kept so high on rest days?

A: Protein is kept high for three reasons.

1) Highest TEF* of all macronutrients; 20-25% of the energy gets wasted as heat, making the true metabolic impact closer to 3,25 kcal/g** (carbs and fat have a TEF around 2-4%, making the effect negligible).

* = Thermic Effect of Food.

** = Livesey. Metabolizable energy of macronutrients. Am J Clin Nutr. 1995 Nov;62(5 Suppl):1135S-1142S

2) Greatest effect on satiety.

3) Spares muscle protein stores. While, 1 g/lb may be adequate assuming energy balance, it is not so during dieting conditions. In a calorie deficit, de novo gluconeogenesis, which is the conversion of dietary protein or muscle protein to carbs, is greatly accelerated. Having an ample supply of protein available from the diet, ample in this case being much more than enough (&gt;1 g/lb), prevents amino acids from muscle being used in the dnl process.

You'd want to maximize these three factors to lose fat while preserving muscle mass, but even so I generally recommend a higher than adequate protein intake for anyone wanting to maximize lean gains and avoid fat gains regardless of energy balance (more so for reasons 1 and 2 when in energy balance).

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Stupid thermic effect data, always presented as the highest possible result on proteins side and lowest possible result on the other ends
 
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(Aaron_F @ Nov. 15 2008,12:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Milk, whey, casein, will not make much difference in reality.</div>
I dunno, the whey powder I've got dissolves in milk or water, and is quite drinkable. The casein I have turns into pudding...
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