Is whey really needed?

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I keep thinking of our friend fruitarian, surely his protein intake could not have been that high, but his body really looked good, solid in fact, which raises the question...do we really need that mcuh protein?

Allow me to introduce just a little research:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Results from Experiments

Every movement we make, every thought we think, every heartthrob, involves waste and the expenditure of energy. There is a constant breaking down of our tissues; and the food ingested is the source of the material for repair. By this digestion, assimilation, and oxidation, energy is liberated for life's varied activities.

The idea has long been current that superior qualities of body and mind come from eating flesh food; but the verdict of science, after long observation and careful investigation and various experiments, is rapidly reversing this opinion. The experiments of Prof. Russell H. Chittenden, president of the American Physiological Society, and director of the Sheffield Scientific School at Yale, are convincing. His elaborate investigations, extending over long periods of time, prove that persons of widely varying habits of life, temperament, occupation and constitution, can maintain and even heighten their mental and physical vigor while subsisting upon a diet containing but one half the usual amount of protein, and in which the flesh is reduced to a minimum or is entirely absent.

The subjects of the first experiment were three physicians, three professors, and a clerk men of sedentary and chiefly of mental occupation. For a period of six months they were required to reduce the amount of meat and other protein foods by one half. &quot;Their weight remained stationary; but they improved in general health, and experienced a quite remarkable increase of mental clearness and energy.&quot;

For his next experiment, Professor Chittenden used a detachment of twenty soldiers from the hospital corps of the United States Army, &quot;representing a great variety of types of different ages, nationality, temperament, and degrees of intelligence.&quot; For a period of six months, these men lived upon a ration in which the protein was reduced to one third the usual amount, and the flesh to five sixths of an ounce daily.

There was a slight gain in weight, &quot;the general health was well maintained, and with suggestions of improvement that were frequently so marked as to challenge attention.&quot; &quot;Most conspicuous, however,&quot; remarks Professor Chittenden, &quot;was the effect observed on the muscular strength of the various subjects. . . . Without exception, we note a phenomenal gain in strength which demands explanation.&quot; There was an average gain in strength for each subject of about 50 percent.

For the third experiment Professor Chittenden secured as subjects a group of eight leading athletes at Yale, all in training trim. For five months they subsisted upon a diet comprised of one half to one third of the quantity of protein food they had been in the habit of eating. &quot;Gymnasium tests showed in every man a truly remarkable gain in strength and endurance.&quot;

Dr. Irving Fisher, professor of political economy at Yale University, concluded a series of experiments testing the endurance of forty-nine persons, about thirty of the number being flesh abstainers. The first endurance test was that of &quot;holding the arms horizontally.&quot; The flesh eaters averaged ten minutes. The flesh abstainers averaged forty-nine minutes. The longest time for a flesh eater was twenty-two minutes. The maximum time for a flesh abstainer was two hundred minutes. The second endurance test was that of &quot;deep knee bending.&quot; The flesh eaters averaged 383 times, the flesh abstainers 833. Professor Fisher explains the results on the basis that &quot;flesh foods contain in themselves fatigue poisons of various kinds, which naturally aggravate the action of the fatigue poisons produced in the body.&quot;

Professor Fisher remarks: &quot;These investigations, with those of Combe of Lausanne; Metchnikoff and Tisier of Paris; as well as Herter and others in the United States, seem gradually to be demonstrating that the fancied strength from meat is, like the fancied strength from alcohol, an illusion.&quot;

Professor Rubner, of Berlin, &quot;one of the world's foremost students of hygiene,&quot; read a paper before the International Congress of Hygiene and Demography on the &quot;Nutrition of the People,&quot; saying:

&quot;It is a fact that the diet of the well-to-do is not in itself physiologically justified; it is not even healthful; for on account of the false notions of the strengthening effects of meat, too much meat is used by young and old, and this is harmful.&quot;

In the long-distance races in Germany, the flesh abstainers have invariably been easy victors. Upon this point, Professor von Norden, in his monumental work on &quot;Metabolism and Practical Medicine,&quot; says:

&quot;In Germany, at least, in these competitive races, the vegetarian is ahead of the meat eater. The non-vegetarian cannot compete with the vegetarian in the matter of endurance in these long-distance walks. The vegetarian is ahead in the matter of rapid pedestrian feats.&quot;</div>
 
Fausto, I am thinking more and more that it isn't total daily protein intake that is key, but when the protein is consumed.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">&quot;In Germany, at least, in these competitive races, the vegetarian is ahead of the meat eater. The non-vegetarian cannot compete with the vegetarian in the matter of endurance in these long-distance walks. The vegetarian is ahead in the matter of rapid pedestrian feats.&quot;</div>

I have nothing against anyone that wants to go veggie but how does the vegetarian get on in World's Strongest Man comps? Oh, he doesn't compete.

Seems a lot of the claims in the above article are all about endurance; there's nothing really directly related to strength and the associated extra muscle mass that is required to be a stronger person.

This site may be of interest to any budding veggie lifters out there:

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Professor Fisher explains the results on the basis that &quot;flesh foods contain in themselves fatigue poisons of various kinds, which naturally aggravate the action of the fatigue poisons produced in the body.&quot;</div>
Any perspicacious nutritionists out there care to elaborate on this?
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(Lol @ Dec. 05 2008,9:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Any perspicacious nutritionists out there care to elaborate on this?
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What I've usually heard from &quot;nutitionist&quot; side of the equation is that it is caloric increase, rather than explosive amounts of protein, that's most critical.  With carbs and fats available for energy, protein is spared and available to build tissue.   Whether this is enough to &quot;maximize&quot; hyertophy is probably another argument.  

Seems there should exist research evaluating physiological changes in muscle tissue/mass during strength exercise at various levels of protein injestion (and no, I haven't checked the archives...yet).   Also, I'd be curious to know if any research validates the issue of kidney stress from high protein intake.

I'm also one of the skeptics who believes these protein shakes I'm drinking could be a lot $$ out the window.  Furthermore, I swear that half of what goes in comes one of the other ends!
 
<div>
(omega99 @ Dec. 05 2008,10:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Seems there should exist research evaluating physiological changes in muscle tissue/mass during strength exercise at various levels of protein injestion (and no, I haven't checked the archives...yet).   </div>

Not only timing but type and amount of protein as well. This isn't to say one must eat huge amounts of protein but one does need sufficient amounts and to me timing is a big issue. The type of protein is also an issue to me as it's been shown quite convincingly, to me anyway, that there is a substantial difference when ingesting soy vs. milk proteins. Whether there is as large a comparative difference between milk and meat protein probably not but timing would definitely be an issue. Also free form versus intact, whey versus casein, egg vs. milk and so on.

Here are a couple abstracts but there is a whole body of evidence out there. Read the work of Tipton, Wolfe, Kerksick and others.



Amino Acids. 2008 Jul 27.
Acute and long-term effects of resistance exercise with or without protein ingestion on muscle hypertrophy and gene expression.Hulmi JJ, Kovanen V, Selänne H, Kraemer WJ, Häkkinen K, Mero AA.
Department of Biology of Physical Activity, University of Jyväskylä, P.O. Box 35, 40014, Jyväskylä, Finland,

The effects of timed ingestion of high-quality protein before and after resistance exercise are not well known. In this study, young men were randomized to protein (n = 11), placebo (n = 10) and control (n = 10) groups. Muscle cross-sectional area by MRI and muscle forces were analyzed before and after 21 weeks of either heavy resistance training (RT) or control period. Muscle biopsies were taken before, and 1 and 48 h after 5 x 10 repetition leg press exercise (RE) as well as 21 weeks after RT. Protein (15 g of whey both before and after exercise) or non-energetic placebo were provided to subjects in the context of both single RE bout (acute responses) as well as each RE workout twice a week throughout the 21-week-RT. Protein intake increased (P &lt;/= 0.05) RT-induced muscle cross-sectional area enlargement and cell-cycle kinase cdk2 mRNA expression in the vastus lateralis muscle suggesting higher proliferating cell activation response with protein supplementation. Moreover, protein intake seemed to prevent 1 h post-RE decrease in myostatin and myogenin mRNA expression but did not affect activin receptor IIb, p21, FLRG, MAFbx or MyoD expression. In conclusion, protein intake close to resistance exercise workout may alter mRNA expression in a manner advantageous for muscle hypertrophy.

J Sports Sci. 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79.
Protein and amino acids for athletes.Tipton KD, Wolfe RR.
Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Shriner's Hospital for Children, 815 Market Street, Galveston, TX 77550, USA.

The main determinants of an athlete's protein needs are their training regime and habitual nutrient intake. Most athletes ingest sufficient protein in their habitual diet. Additional protein will confer only a minimal, albeit arguably important, additional advantage. Given sufficient energy intake, lean body mass can be maintained within a wide range of protein intakes. Since there is limited evidence for harmful effects of a high protein intake and there is a metabolic rationale for the efficacy of an increase in protein, if muscle hypertrophy is the goal, a higher protein intake within the context of an athlete's overall dietary requirements may be beneficial. However, there are few convincing outcome data to indicate that the ingestion of a high amount of protein (2-3 g x kg(-1) BW x day(-1), where BW = body weight) is necessary. Current literature suggests that it may be too simplistic to rely on recommendations of a particular amount of protein per day. Acute studies suggest that for any given amount of protein, the metabolic response is dependent on other factors, including the timing of ingestion in relation to exercise and/or other nutrients, the composition of ingested amino acids and the type of protein.

J Am Coll Nutr. 2005 Apr;24(2):134S-139S.
Dietary protein to support anabolism with resistance exercise in young men.Phillips SM, Hartman JW, Wilkinson SB.
Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1 CANADA.

Resistance exercise is fundamentally anabolic and as such stimulates the process of skeletal muscle protein synthesis (MPS) in an absolute sense and relative to skeletal muscle protein breakdown (MPB). However, the net effect of resistance exercise is to shift net protein balance (NPB = MPS - MPB) to a more positive value; however, in the absence of feeding NPB remains negative. Feeding stimulates MPS to an extent where NPB becomes positive, for a transient time. When combined, resistance exercise and feeding synergistically interact to result in NPB being greater than with feeding alone. This feeding- and exercise-induced stimulation of NPB is what, albeit slowly, results in muscle hypertrophy. With this rudimentary knowledge we are now at the point where we can manipulate variables within the system to see what impact these interventions have on the processes of MPS, MPB, and NPB and ultimately and perhaps most importantly, muscle hypertrophy and strength. We used established models of skeletal muscle amino acid turnover to examine how protein source (milk versus soy) acutely affects the processes of MPS and MPB after resistance exercise. Our findings revealed that even when balanced quantities of total protein and energy are consumed that milk proteins are more effective in stimulating amino acid uptake and net protein deposition in skeletal muscle after resistance exercise than are hydrolyzed soy proteins. Importantly, the finding of increased amino acid uptake would be independent of the differences in amino acid composition of the two proteins. We propose that the improved net protein deposition with milk protein consumption is also not due to differences in amino acid composition, but is due to a different pattern of amino acid delivery associated with milk versus hydrolyzed soy proteins. If our acute findings are accurate then we hypothesized that chronically the greater net protein deposition associated with milk protein consumption post-resistance exercise would eventually lead to greater net protein accretion (i.e., muscle fiber hypertrophy), over a longer time period. In young men completing 12 weeks of resistance training (5d/wk) we observed a tendency (P = 0.11) for greater gains in whole body lean mass and whole as greater muscle fiber hypertrophy with consumption of milk. While strength gains were not different between the soy and milk-supplemented groups we would argue that the true significance of a greater increase in lean mass that we observed with milk consumption may be more important in groups of persons with lower initial lean mass and strength such as the elderly.

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Jan;292(1):E71-6. Epub 2006 Aug 8.
Stimulation of net muscle protein synthesis by whey protein ingestion before and after exercise.
Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Aarsland AA, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR.
The Univ. of Birmingham, School of Sport &amp; Exercise Sciences, Edgbaston, Birmington B15 2TT, UK.

Timing of nutrient ingestion has been demonstrated to influence the anabolic response of muscle following exercise. Previously, we demonstrated that net amino acid uptake was greater when free essential amino acids plus carbohydrates were ingested before resistance exercise rather than following exercise. However, it is unclear if ingestion of whole proteins before exercise would stimulate a superior response compared with following exercise. This study was designed to examine the response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of whey proteins both before and following resistance exercise. Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of two groups. A solution of whey proteins was consumed either immediately before exercise (PRE; n = 8) or immediately following exercise (POST; n = 9). Each subject performed 10 sets of 8 repetitions of leg extension exercise. Phenylalanine concentrations were measured in femoral arteriovenous samples to determine balance across the leg. Arterial amino acid concentrations were elevated by approximately 50%, and net amino acid balance switched from negative to positive following ingestion of proteins at either time. Amino acid uptake was not significantly different between PRE and POST when calculated from the beginning of exercise (67 +/- 22 and 27 +/- 10 for PRE and POST, respectively) or from the ingestion of each drink (60 +/- 17 and 63 +/- 15 for PRE and POST, respectively). Thus the response of net muscle protein balance to timing of intact protein ingestion does not respond as does that of the combination of free amino acids and carbohydrate.


Also check out
Protein Essentials by Jamie Hale, which I consulted with Jaime on and provided many studies.

And Lyle McDonald's The Protein Book

Both Great books

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Also, I'd be curious to know if any research validates the issue of kidney stress from high protein intake.</div>

In healthy subjects not really but what is &quot;high&quot; may be different among various people.

Again check out Jamie's Book, I know he has a section dedicated to this.
 
Thanks for posting that Dan.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">While strength gains were not different between the soy and milk-supplemented groups we would argue that the true significance of a greater increase in lean mass that we observed with milk consumption may be more important in groups of persons with lower initial lean mass and strength such as the elderly.</div>

That quote alone is a good reason why I need to keep taking the cow juice!
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Has anybody else (ie. other than Dan) read Lyle's or Jamie's Protein books? Is it worth getting both? I would have thought that there would be a lot of cross-over between the two.
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Milk: it does a body good!

Omega, interesting points about general caloric intake around the workout. Anything to add to that Dan?
 
These were mostly studies on milk proteins, IE whey and or casein, but there are some studies looking at whole milk and fat free milk as well.

Also the significance of these is still questionable as many of these studies were on subjects who were overnight fasted and the question then becomes what happens when the subjects are fed.

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Oct;16(5):494-509.
The effect of whey isolate and resistance training on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine.Cribb PJ, Williams AD, Carey MF, Hayes A.
Exercise Metabolism Unit, Center for Ageing, Rehabilitation, Exercise and Sport (CARES), Australia.

Different dietary proteins affect whole body protein anabolism and accretion and therefore, have the potential to influence results obtained from resistance training. This study examined the effects of supplementation with two proteins, hydrolyzed whey isolate (WI) and casein ©, on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine levels during a 10 wk, supervised resistance training program. In a double-blind protocol, 13 male, recreational bodybuilders supplemented their normal diet with either WI or C (1.5 gm/kg body wt/d) for the duration of the program. Strength was assessed by 1-RM in three exercises (barbell bench press, squat, and cable pull-down). Body composition was assessed by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry. Plasma glutamine levels were determined by the enzymatic method with spectrophotometric detection. All assessments occurred in the week before and the week following 10 wk of training. Plasma glutamine levels did not change in either supplement group following the intervention. The WI group achieved a significantly greater gain (P &lt; 0.01) in lean mass than the C group (5.0 +/- 0.3 vs. 0.8 +/- 0.4 kg for WI and C, respectively) and a significant (P &lt; 0.05) change in fat mass (-1.5 +/- 0.5 kg) compared to the C group (+0.2 +/- 0.3 kg). The WI group also achieved significantly greater (P &lt; 0.05) improvements in strength compared to the C group in each assessment of strength. When the strength changes were expressed relative to body weight, the WI group still achieved significantly greater (P &lt; 0.05) improvements in strength compared to the C group.

Also what is still in the air is.......the amount of intact protein needed. The study by Tang last year shows us the amount may indeed be quite low.

Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2007 Dec;32(6):1132-8. Links
Minimal whey protein with carbohydrate stimulates muscle protein synthesis following resistance exercise in trained young men.Tang JE, Manolakos JJ, Kujbida GW, Lysecki PJ, Moore DR, Phillips SM.
Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1, Canada.

Whey protein is a supplemental protein source often used by athletes, particularly those aiming to gain muscle mass; however, direct evidence for its efficacy in stimulating muscle protein synthesis (MPS) is lacking. We aimed to determine the impact of consuming whey protein on skeletal muscle protein turnover in the post-exercise period. Eight healthy resistance-trained young men (age=21+/-1 .0 years; BMI=26.8+/-0.9 kg/m2 (means+/-SE)) participated in a double-blind randomized crossover trial in which they performed a unilateral leg resistance exercise workout (EX: 4 sets of knee extensions and 4 sets of leg press; 8-10 repetitions/set; 80% of maximal), such that one leg was not exercised and acted as a rested (RE) comparator. After exercise, subjects consumed either an isoenergetic whey protein plus carbohydrate beverage (WHEY: 10 g protein and 21 g fructose) or a carbohydrate-only beverage (CHO: 21 g fructose and 10 g maltodextran). Subjects received pulse-tracer injections of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine and L-[15N]phenylalanine to measure MPS. Exercise stimulated a rise in MPS in the WHEY-EX and CHO-EX legs, which were greater than MPS in the WHEY-RE leg and the CHO-RE leg (all p&lt;0.05), respectively. The rate of MPS in the WHEY-EX leg was greater than in the CHO-EX leg (p&lt;0.001). We conclude that a small dose (10 g) of whey protein with carbohydrate (21 g) can stimulate a rise in MPS after resistance exercise in trained young men that would be supportive of a positive net protein balance, which, over time, would lead to hypertrophy.

Also since this topic was about whey, is there truly a difference between whey and casein?

Well we see that taking whey either before or after makes little difference (see Stimulation of net muscle protein synthesis by whey protein ingestion before and after exercise. Tipton KD), so what about casein pre or post. This question really hasn't been directly addresses and I would like to see a study done using this. But, we can draw some conclusions. We know leucine is a primary signalling protein wrt protein synthesis and we also roughly know the rate of appearance when ingesting casein. So my guess would be it's about the same with only one caveat, you would need to ingest the casein a little longer before the workout but that's probably about it. Granted the Cribbs study above shows differently but ....................
 
<div>
(colby2152 @ Dec. 06 2008,10:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Milk: it does a body good!

Omega, interesting points about general caloric intake around the workout.  Anything to add to that Dan?</div>
I think it's an obvious no brainer but a pre and or post WO shake is so much easier on the gut than a steak, veggie and tater dinner
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Whey is 90% marketing. I mean sure, if you don't have enough protein in your diet, your muscles can't grow... But here's a secret, if you're a naturalm and ARENT a vegetarian, annorexic or something similiar, you're probably getting more than enough through diet if its anywhere near balanced/sane.

Most of this marketing is based on, well if you need 10 more grams over baseline to grow muscle, why not gorge 200 more (just in case)

If you're putting 10 pounds of muscle a year, how useful is it to obsess about all this detail? So what, you gonna put on 10.3 pounds instead if you DIAL everything in? Pre, post, timing, when, what type, casein vs. whey vs. post-process, micro-processed... BLAH! You're just putting 10 pounds a year anyway, duh!

Nutritional detail-obsession is ussually just a cover up for anabolics in pros and athletes.
 
<div>
(Dan Moore @ Dec. 06 2008,11:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">These were mostly studies on milk proteins, IE whey and or casein, but there are some studies looking at whole milk and fat free milk as well.

Also the significance of these is still questionable as many of these studies were on subjects who were overnight fasted and the question then becomes what happens when the subjects are fed.

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Oct;16(5):494-509.
The effect of whey isolate and resistance training on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine.Cribb PJ, Williams AD, Carey MF, Hayes A.
Exercise Metabolism Unit, Center for Ageing, Rehabilitation, Exercise and Sport (CARES), Australia.

Different dietary proteins affect whole body protein anabolism and accretion and therefore, have the potential to influence results obtained from resistance training. This study examined the effects of supplementation with two proteins, hydrolyzed whey isolate (WI) and casein ©, on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine levels during a 10 wk, supervised resistance training program. In a double-blind protocol, 13 male, recreational bodybuilders supplemented their normal diet with either WI or C (1.5 gm/kg body wt/d) for the duration of the program. Strength was assessed by 1-RM in three exercises (barbell bench press, squat, and cable pull-down). Body composition was assessed by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry. Plasma glutamine levels were determined by the enzymatic method with spectrophotometric detection. All assessments occurred in the week before and the week following 10 wk of training. Plasma glutamine levels did not change in either supplement group following the intervention. The WI group achieved a significantly greater gain (P &lt; 0.01) in lean mass than the C group (5.0 +/- 0.3 vs. 0.8 +/- 0.4 kg for WI and C, respectively) and a significant (P &lt; 0.05) change in fat mass (-1.5 +/- 0.5 kg) compared to the C group (+0.2 +/- 0.3 kg). The WI group also achieved significantly greater (P &lt; 0.05) improvements in strength compared to the C group in each assessment of strength. When the strength changes were expressed relative to body weight, the WI group still achieved significantly greater (P &lt; 0.05) improvements in strength compared to the C group.

Also what is still in the air is.......the amount of intact protein needed. The study by Tang last year shows us the amount may indeed be quite low.

Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2007 Dec;32(6):1132-8. Links
Minimal whey protein with carbohydrate stimulates muscle protein synthesis following resistance exercise in trained young men.Tang JE, Manolakos JJ, Kujbida GW, Lysecki PJ, Moore DR, Phillips SM.
Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1, Canada.

Whey protein is a supplemental protein source often used by athletes, particularly those aiming to gain muscle mass; however, direct evidence for its efficacy in stimulating muscle protein synthesis (MPS) is lacking. We aimed to determine the impact of consuming whey protein on skeletal muscle protein turnover in the post-exercise period. Eight healthy resistance-trained young men (age=21+/-1 .0 years; BMI=26.8+/-0.9 kg/m2 (means+/-SE)) participated in a double-blind randomized crossover trial in which they performed a unilateral leg resistance exercise workout (EX: 4 sets of knee extensions and 4 sets of leg press; 8-10 repetitions/set; 80% of maximal), such that one leg was not exercised and acted as a rested (RE) comparator. After exercise, subjects consumed either an isoenergetic whey protein plus carbohydrate beverage (WHEY: 10 g protein and 21 g fructose) or a carbohydrate-only beverage (CHO: 21 g fructose and 10 g maltodextran). Subjects received pulse-tracer injections of L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine and L-[15N]phenylalanine to measure MPS. Exercise stimulated a rise in MPS in the WHEY-EX and CHO-EX legs, which were greater than MPS in the WHEY-RE leg and the CHO-RE leg (all p&lt;0.05), respectively. The rate of MPS in the WHEY-EX leg was greater than in the CHO-EX leg (p&lt;0.001). We conclude that a small dose (10 g) of whey protein with carbohydrate (21 g) can stimulate a rise in MPS after resistance exercise in trained young men that would be supportive of a positive net protein balance, which, over time, would lead to hypertrophy.

Also since this topic was about whey, is there truly a difference between whey and casein?

Well we see that taking whey either before or after makes little difference (see Stimulation of net muscle protein synthesis by whey protein ingestion before and after exercise. Tipton KD), so what about casein pre or post. This question really hasn't been directly addresses and I would like to see a study done using this. But, we can draw some conclusions. We know leucine is a primary signalling protein wrt protein synthesis and we also roughly know the rate of appearance when ingesting casein. So my guess would be it's about the same with only one caveat, you would need to ingest the casein a little longer before the workout but that's probably about it. Granted the Cribbs study above shows differently but ....................</div>
Apparently net-nitrogen-balance was-assumed to be a marker of potential hypertrophy some decades ago.

It no longer is. Most marketing referencing &quot;studies on the anabolic effects of whey/casein,whatever&quot; are about studies involving nitrogen balance... Which was only assumed to be an indicator of possible hypertrophy, it no longer i.s
 
most modern studies around casein/whey most defeinately do no involve nitrogen balance as their only measure... a large number use much much muhc more sensitive analytical techniques than that.
 
<div>
(Aaron_F @ Apr. 04 2009,12:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">most modern studies around casein/whey most defeinately do no involve nitrogen balance as their only measure...  a large number use much much muhc more sensitive analytical techniques than that.</div>
Yeah they involve pretty much ANYTHING except actual MUSCLE-mass.

Ever wonder why not a single study on whey has a placebo group, non-whey group and a whey group.

And then measures MUSCLE-MASS increases? [not because it can't be done, it can, seen studies for leg-exercises where they did that]

Whey has got to be the biggest-scam of the century [in terms of overblown benefits and marketing].
 
<div>
(Aaron_F @ Apr. 09 2009,4:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">so what you are saying is that you have no idea about the current research in the area</div>
That's the kind of languaging people resort to when they see they're out of arguments &quot;so you don't get it all do you!&quot;.

I didn't see any links to any studies.

Give me 10 good pubmed studies that prove whey has anything to do with increasing MUSCLE MASS... (not markers that used to be presumed to maybe, coulda, shoulda, maybe be indicative of anabolism).

Give me 10 studies that show whey has any muscle-mass increasing effects. In fact, give me 1. Not clever languaging, just plain simple... &quot;we gave group a whey, and we gave group b placebo, and group a added 50% more muscle mass with the same exercise and nutrition&quot;...

Where's this study? Again, don't try to spin in some &quot;yeah but markers of potential anabolism show that whey vs. casein has better solubility to the bla bla bla&quot;.

Simple... A+B=C = Where is this study?
 
So in typical troll style you go from single study request, to suddenly wanting a large combinations of studies.  


Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001 Sep;11(3):349-64.Links
   The effect of whey protein supplementation with and without creatine monohydrate combined with resistance training on lean tissue mass and muscle strength.
   Burke DG, Chilibeck PD, Davidson KS, Candow DG, Farthing J, Smith-Palmer T.

   Department of Human Kinetics, St. Francis Xavier University, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, B2G 2W5, Canada.

   Our purpose was to assess muscular adaptations during 6 weeks of resistance training in 36 males randomly assigned to supplementation with whey protein (W; 1.2 g/kg/day), whey protein and creatine monohydrate (WC; 0.1 g/kg/day), or placebo (P; 1.2 g/kg/day maltodextrin). Measures included lean tissue mass by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry, bench press and squat strength (1-repetition maximum), and knee extension/flexion peak torque. Lean tissue mass increased to a greater extent with training in WC compared to the other groups, and in the W compared to the P group (p &lt; .05). Bench press strength increased to a greater extent for WC compared to W and P (p &lt; .05). Knee extension peak torque increased with training for WC and W (p &lt; .05), but not for P. All other measures increased to a similar extent across groups. Continued training without supplementation for an additional 6 weeks resulted in maintenance of strength and lean tissue mass in all groups. Males that supplemented with whey protein while resistance training demonstrated greater improvement in knee extension peak torque and lean tissue mass than males engaged in training alone. Males that supplemented with a combination of whey protein and creatine had greater increases in lean tissue mass and bench press than those who supplemented with only whey protein or placebo. However, not all strength measures were improved with supplementation, since subjects who supplemented with creatine and/or whey protein had similar increases in squat strength and knee flexion peak torque compared to subjects who received placebo.

but then you wanted a study with a non-whey group included as well, so i guess that invalidates that reply

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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So in typical troll style you go from single study request</div>

Ok, this is the next level, now i'm a troll if I don't buy into the marketing and demand science and facts. Nice, good tactic ;) I believe the church used it during the crusades.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> to suddenly wanting a large combinations of studies.   </div>

No, just one single combination.

Marketing claim is: IF you consume whey, you put on more muscle than if you don't.

Ideal study would be: You get one group of guys who are on whey, and one who are on placebo... See which group gains how much mucle. (ACTUAL muscle, not &quot;markers of potential muscle synthesis&quot;, or other clever stuff they use to mask the lack of results)



This study you posted is familiar to me because its oft-quoted by marketers, and it was ORDERED BY MUSCLETECH and was done in 2 parts
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
but then you wanted a study with a non-whey group included as well, so i guess that invalidates that reply

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</div>

You actually posted a study that does include a non-whey group, look at the P section. Again, this is how clever marketers sell stuff to people, using the fact that most people aren't trained in reading studies. You're reading the abstract, and not the numbers and full study. The abstract is spun into sounding like what it needs to for marketing, since no one goes and reads the full study.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001 Sep;11(3):349-64.Links
   The effect of whey protein supplementation with and without creatine monohydrate combined with resistance training on lean tissue mass and muscle strength.
   Burke DG, Chilibeck PD, Davidson KS, Candow DG, Farthing J, Smith-Palmer T.

   Department of Human Kinetics, St. Francis Xavier University, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, B2G 2W5, Canada.

   Our purpose was to assess muscular adaptations during 6 weeks of resistance training in 36 males randomly assigned to supplementation with whey protein (W; 1.2 g/kg/day), whey protein and creatine monohydrate (WC; 0.1 g/kg/day), or placebo (P; 1.2 g/kg/day maltodextrin). Measures included lean tissue mass by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry, bench press and squat strength (1-repetition maximum), and knee extension/flexion peak torque. Lean tissue mass increased to a greater extent with training in WC compared to the other groups, and in the W compared to the P group (p &lt; .05). Bench press strength increased to a greater extent for WC compared to W and P (p &lt; .05). Knee extension peak torque increased with training for WC and W (p &lt; .05), but not for P. </div>

Two answers:

1) Did you read carefuly? &quot;Males that supplemented with a combination of whey protein and creatine had greater increases in lean tissue mass and bench press than those who supplemented with only whey protein or placebo.&quot;

It says that the CREATINE group was the one with greater increases. Not the whey group. Its cleverly designed so there is no &quot;just creatine group&quot; vs. &quot;just whey group&quot;, they added whey to the creatine, so the winning group would include &quot;whey&quot; in it, pretty sneaky. They don't mention the whey group is identical to the non-whey group in results.

They also make sure that in the abstract they mention exercises which did better on the W group... and just those


2. They don't mention that out of the who knows how many exercises, the knee-extension is most likely just a statistical anomaly. They don't outright lie, since at the bottom they point out:

&quot;However, not all strength measures were improved with supplementation, since subjects who supplemented with creatine and/or whey protein had similar increases in squat strength and knee flexion peak torque compared to subjects who received placebo.&quot;


2) They did a follow up study that same year (no idea why they redid it the same year, yet to find out). It also involved the same groups, except it went for 8 weeks and involved more subjects. Only the 6-week one with less subjects is online right now (the one you quoted)

An explanation of the second 2001 study from the book &quot;how much protein&quot;:

=========================
After 8 weeks all 3 groups made significant gains in fat-
free  mass.  The  high  protein  (whey-based) group  gained  a  little  over  6  pounds,  the Carbohydrate  group  gained almost 7.5 pounds of  lean mass and  the group who did not  receive any  supplements  still gained over 3 pounds of fat free mass.  

Let’s say that again.  

Between the two groups, the non-whey group gained MORE muscle.
=========================


All the later studies by this exact team (brooke et al), use terms like &quot;no benefit&quot; of whey above weigh-resistance exercise alone. Or &quot;minimal difference&quot;. (either way)
 
Well, the study Aaron posted does mention that: &quot;Lean tissue mass increased to a greater extent with training in WC compared to the other groups, and in the W compared to the P group (p &lt; .05). &quot;
That is, Whey + Creatine increased the most but Whey still increased more then Placebo group although they don't mention values.
 
<div>
(Alek @ Apr. 14 2009,6:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ok, this is the next level, now i'm a troll if I don't buy into the marketing and demand science and facts. Nice, good tactic ;) I believe the church used it during the crusades.</div>
No, you are a troll when you ask for one thing, when called on it, you ask for a different thing.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">No, just one single combination.</div>

except you didnt ask for one thing..

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Marketing claim is: IF you consume whey, you put on more muscle than if you don't.

Ideal study would be: You get one group of guys who are on whey, and one who are on placebo... See which group gains how much mucle. (ACTUAL muscle, not &quot;markers of potential muscle synthesis&quot;, or other clever stuff they use to mask the lack of results)</div>

Nobody here is marketing, so what are you on about?  Now I may only be guessing, but did you read the entire thread?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
This study you posted is familiar to me because its oft-quoted by marketers, and it was ORDERED BY MUSCLETECH and was done in 2 parts
smile.gif
</div>

oh, you are the special kind who think research happens by magic, that researchers have millions of dollars to flit around and do research on random stuff.  Do you have any evidence that the researchers broke ethics to bend over for the mighty muscletech sausage?  I am sure 5grand is worth that...


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You actually posted a study that does include a non-whey group, look at the P section. Again, this is how clever marketers sell stuff to people, using the fact that most people aren't trained in reading studies. You're reading the abstract, and not the numbers and full study. The abstract is spun into sounding like what it needs to for marketing, since no one goes and reads the full study.</div>

Perhaps you should read what was written before replying?  or by non-whey did you mean two placebo groups?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Two answers:

1) Did you read carefuly? &quot;Males that supplemented with a combination of whey protein and creatine had greater increases in lean tissue mass and bench press than those who supplemented with only whey protein or placebo.&quot;


It says that the CREATINE group was the one with greater increases. Not the whey group. Its cleverly designed so there is no &quot;just creatine group&quot; vs. &quot;just whey group&quot;, they added whey to the creatine, so the winning group would include &quot;whey&quot; in it, pretty sneaky. They don't mention the whey group is identical to the non-whey group in results.</div>

no-significant difference does not mean identical.  The significant difference for teh whey group was before, and after training period.

The placebo group achieved no significant change with training.

Body mass was greater in Whey+creatine and Whey groups compared to placebo

As would be expected in a short term trial containing inadequate numbers...  but then I never went into the relative power of the study...  

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">They also make sure that in the abstract they mention exercises which did better on the W group... and just those


2. They don't mention that out of the who knows how many exercises, the knee-extension is most likely just a statistical anomaly. They don't outright lie, since at the bottom they point out:

&quot;However, not all strength measures were improved with supplementation, since subjects who supplemented with creatine and/or whey protein had similar increases in squat strength and knee flexion peak torque compared to subjects who received placebo.&quot;</div>

How much information do you believe an author can fit into an abstract &lt;250 words?  

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">2) They did a follow up study that same year (no idea why they redid it the same year, yet to find out). It also involved the same groups, except it went for 8 weeks and involved more subjects. Only the 6-week one with less subjects is online right now (the one you quoted)

An explanation of the second 2001 study from the book &quot;how much protein&quot;:</div>
Link to the book?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">=========================
After 8 weeks all 3 groups made significant gains in fat-
free  mass.  The  high  protein  (whey-based) group  gained  a  little  over  6  pounds,  the Carbohydrate  group  gained almost 7.5 pounds of  lean mass and  the group who did not  receive any  supplements  still gained over 3 pounds of fat free mass.  

Let’s say that again.  

Between the two groups, the non-whey group gained MORE muscle. </div>

So before you complaining about no significant difference based off the published study (which was +3lbs), but now you appear to be claiming a significant difference based off 1.5lbs of difference?  (which is unlikely to be significant unless we are talking about huge numbers of subjects)

Guess it only matters on one side of the equation

But taking it as a comment from a book about unpublished research, that is the fun of research using human subjects...  but I wonder what happens when somebody publishes a meta-analysis on the subject.


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">All the later studies by this exact team (brooke et al), use terms like &quot;no benefit&quot; of whey above weigh-resistance exercise alone. Or &quot;minimal difference&quot;. (either way)</div>

Do you mean Brooke or Burke?  reference?
 
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