Max-Stim questions

Discussion in 'General Training' started by dkm1987, Jun 4, 2008.

  1. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (mikeynov @ Aug. 18 2008,10:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just as a suggestion, if Bryan wouldn't mind, I think a max-stim forum here would be an outstanding idea.</div>
    If Dan (or someone) could transfer some of the very interesting Max-Stim forum threads to a forum here that would be most welcome. I hope they still exist in a MySQL db somewhere! Dan?
     
  2. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    <div>
    (mikeynov @ Aug. 18 2008,5:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just as a suggestion, if Bryan wouldn't mind, I think a max-stim forum here would be an outstanding idea.</div>
    I would be willing to participate. I have quite extensive Max-stim training experience and I plan on using it as post-5s work in place of negatives in my HST cycles.

    I am also a big believer in LOOONG cycles if possible (like Dan Moore himself) and extending the 'progressive loading' principle using max-stim to combat metabolic fatigue while lifting relatively enormous loads and volumes is absolutely an advantageous tool in the HST arsenal.

    I remember doing max-stim deads, squats, benches, chin-ups, etc. and getting excellent results naturally. There's not many methods (if any) that will stimulate hypertrophy like lifting your 6 rep maximum 20 consecutive times in only a few minutes! [​IMG] Its the best thing since steroids! [​IMG]
     
  3. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    <div>
    (mikeynov @ Aug. 18 2008,5:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just as a suggestion, if Bryan wouldn't mind, I think a max-stim forum here would be an outstanding idea.</div>
    I vote 'yes' as well
     
  4. BenReffell

    BenReffell New Member

    I'd vote yes also.

    I only looked at the old site once and thought I'd check it out again when I get to the end of the 5's but by then it was gone, so I have very little knowledge of it. For me it is an essential (and related part of HST) as I mostly train alone given I move around a lot and normally train when most others are at work.
     
  5. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    My plan of integrating max-stim into my HST cycle.

    Weeks 1&amp;2: 2 sets of 15s

    Weeks 3&amp;4: 2 sets of 10s

    Weeks 5&amp;6: 4 sets of 5s

    Weeks 7&amp;8: 20 max-stim reps

    Weeks 9&amp;10: 15 max-stim reps

    Weeks 11&amp;12: 10 max-stim reps

    Week 13&amp;14: Strategic Deconditioning

    This extends the 'vanilla' HST cycle to 14 weeks by increasing the progression using fatigue management. Extending the cycle is always a positive thing as it means more time for growth, less time wasted on SD periods.
     
  6. mikeynov

    mikeynov Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (scientific muscle @ Aug. 21 2008,1:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My plan of integrating max-stim into my HST cycle.

    Weeks 1&amp;2: 2 sets of 15s

    Weeks 3&amp;4: 2 sets of 10s

    Weeks 5&amp;6: 4 sets of 5s

    Weeks 7&amp;8: 20 max-stim reps

    Weeks 9&amp;10: 15 max-stim reps

    Weeks 11&amp;12: 10 max-stim reps

    Week 13&amp;14: Strategic Deconditioning

    This extends the 'vanilla' HST cycle to 14 weeks by increasing the progression using fatigue management. Extending the cycle is always a positive thing as it means more time for growth, less time wasted on SD periods.</div>
    Consider, however, that SD isn't necessarily &quot;wasted time.&quot;

    Coming off of SD, what has happened? In theory, you have resensitized your muscle tissue's sensitivity to lighter loads again.

    From there, you begin rapidly escalating the load on a session per session basis in order to stay ahead of the RBE as much as possible.

    So why do we normally stop at the 5's or negatives phase? Because we are reaching the limits of our strength with pretty heavy for us loads, and going too far too quickly into this realm leads to an increase in risk of injury. Bryan could have just flat out recommended load cycling between something like 60-100% of 1 RM, but people would probably be exploding by the end.

    You have proposed lengthening the cycle by an appreciable margin, but past the 5's, how quickly are you going to be able to increase the load on a session per session basis? If we are conceding the &quot;shock&quot; that spurs our muscles into growth is handling a load that is appreciably above that to which it is accustomed, very slowly increasing your working weights week to week would obviously fall more into the category of &quot;strength training&quot; than hypertrophy training.

    Which is fine, of course - you have proposed, in essence, an HST cycle followed by something resembling a fatigue managed SST cycle.

    But is it &quot;wasted&quot; time after 6-8 weeks to SD for a couple of weeks and immediately load cycle again? If Bryan's gamble is correct, it's possible that you could actually grow faster doing this than slowly eeking out strength gains for weeks on end.
     
  7. I thought that there was some consensus that sets of around 10 reps were the ideal for hypertrophy with more reps being used for endurance and less reps for strength. Is this complete non-sense? Hypertrophy will be the same as long as there is enough load, progression and TUT?
     
  8. ratty

    ratty New Member

    <div>
    (electric @ Aug. 21 2008,10:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I thought that there was some consensus that sets of around 10 reps were the ideal for hypertrophy with more reps being used for endurance and less reps for strength. Is this complete non-sense? Hypertrophy will be the same as long as there is enough load, progression and TUT?</div>
    Yeah i used to think this aswel...ive read this in magazines as i think these are just peoples opinions..training at your 15RM will improve your ability to train with that load visa versa for 10 reps and 5 reps..

    As HST has proved the load which is necesary to induce hypertrophy is correlated to the muscle tissues level of conditioning at the time the load is applied.

    Hope this helps to clear up why you are confused???
     
  9. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Mikey, after typing that up and looking at ti, I was thinking the same thing. The loads would get too ridiculous and risking injury with the above plan.

    So how about simply doing max-stim post-5s? Like this:
    Weeks 1&amp;2: 2 sets of 15s

    Weeks 3&amp;4: 2 sets of 10s

    Weeks 5&amp;6: 4 sets of 5s

    Weeks 7&amp;8: 20 max-stim reps

    Weeks 9&amp;10: Strategic Deconditioning


    That seems more realistic.
     
  10. mikeynov

    mikeynov Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (scientific muscle @ Aug. 21 2008,12:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mikey, after typing that up and looking at ti, I was thinking the same thing. The loads would get too ridiculous and risking injury with the above plan.

    So how about simply doing max-stim post-5s? Like this:
    Weeks 1&amp;2: 2 sets of 15s

    Weeks 3&amp;4: 2 sets of 10s

    Weeks 5&amp;6: 4 sets of 5s

    Weeks 7&amp;8: 20 max-stim reps

    Weeks 9&amp;10: Strategic Deconditioning


    That seems more realistic.</div>
    Yep, that looks pretty solid to me.

    Also bear in mind there is nothing wrong with working on strength after the 5's - that is probably quite a useful strategy.

    It's just that, if trying to grow as fast as possible, I think we need to recalibrate our thinking regarding SD. I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the resistance to the concept of SD (in myself and others) isn't based on its efficacy, but rather a deeper psychological need to keep lifting and avoid time away from the gym [​IMG]
     
  11. overfiftylifter

    overfiftylifter New Member

    I have also been experimenting using rest-pause/Max Stim. with Matrix type movements. These movements are harder than conventional repetitions requiring more control/speed and less weight. For those of us who are older(my 55th summer), plagued with past injuries or more interested in hypertrophy than strength, this may be a way of training hard and safe. They are different than Jreps.

    An example of a complete Matrix repetition using the bench press:

    Lift the weight 1/2 way up pause, return to bottom and pause then all the way to the top again pause and then 1/2 way down then pause and return to the top and pause, go back to the bottom and finish with full rep. Rest 10-15 sec. and do the cycle again. The goal is to complete 10 rep cycles.

    There are a lot of contractions and brief pauses during each Matrix rep and the rest-pause reduces the limiting burn/pump that this style of training produces.

    Overfiftylifter-(Does Mr. Moore participate often in these forums?)
     
  12. nkl

    nkl Member

    Overfiftylifter, any scheme that involves fatigue-increasing methods (Matrix-reps, X-reps, rest-pause, static holds, isometrics, etc.) are in opposition to the principles of MaxStim. If you are looking for increased strain and Time Under Tension (TUT), which are the most potent triggers for muscle growth, just follow the proposed MaxStim method without any alterations - use a heavy load (5-10RM) and allow for enough M-time between repetitions to reach the repetition goal (approx. 20 reps).

    Why is this important? MaxStim is more aerobic in nature than anaerobic and relies on a different pathway of energy usage. An unobstructed blood supply will wash away lactic acid and other byproducts resulting from the contractions, and it will also replenish the muscle with fresh nutrients to be used for continued work. The electrochemical balance is also reset between repetitions, which is necessary for a fully functioning nerve-muscle interaction in order to trigger muscle fiber contractions. Thus fatigue is kept at bay and more work (i.e., more TUT) can be accomplished.

    If you are a believer in fatigue-induced hypertrophy (aka. ischeamic hypoxia by occlusion), you must understand that this method of training will not mix well with MaxStim. The actions of the MaxStim method extends to the recovery phase after the workout, where the protein-stimulating cellular actions (via the mTOR chain) become inhibited by the byproducts of fatigue. Do not mix for best results.
     
  13. overfiftylifter

    overfiftylifter New Member

    nkl-I think you are correct. My experience using different techniques like Matrix to reduce the weight to a more comfortable 50-60% 1RM has not been successful due to the amount of fatigue products that hinder recovery. I have been trying to manipulate the Max-Stim program to allow a lesser weight to be used for us older lifters with chronic orthopedic problems. I am using a uniform 5 sec pause between reps using a weight that allows 20-25 reps. I stop at about 1 rep prior to total failure and use a 2/2 cadence. When 25 reps are achieved the weight is increased.

    I guess one of the reasons Max-Stim should work if my old knowledge of muscle physiology still works is that it may force more stress on fast twitch fibers which are more associated with hypertrophy than slow twitch. I believe when muscles fatigue they switch from fast to slow and if your priority is hypertrophy, then challenging the fast twitch would be optimal.

    I was hoping either Bryan Haycock or Dan Moore had some ideas. They don't seem to post often.

    Overfiftylifter-living and learning
     
  14. nkl

    nkl Member

    Overfiftylifter, I would suggest making the load at least 70% of 1RM and extend the M-time (perhaps to 10s) to allow for 20 reps. Hypertrophy response isn't very high to weights below 70% of 1RM.

    I hope this will work for you.

    BTW, welcome to the HST forum! [​IMG]
     
  15. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    my goals for this cycle are :

    1) incorporating max stim at the end the way sci muscle laid out

    2) learning to organize my thoughts as clearly and scientifically as nkl ! [​IMG]
     
  16. nkl

    nkl Member

    <div>
    (beingisbeing @ Aug. 31 2008,5:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">my goals for this cycle are :

    1) incorporating max stim at the end the way sci muscle laid out

    2) learning to organize my thoughts as clearly and scientifically as nkl ! [​IMG]</div>
    Gee, thanks! And I thought I was merely babbling as thoughts passed through my head!  [​IMG]

    Good luck with MaxStim!
     
  17. BenReffell

    BenReffell New Member

    Scientific / Mikey (or anyone who has extended with max-stim)

    What sort of weight increments do you plan on using during the max-stim weeks?

    I just carried on with the normal HST increments into my max-stim weeks but did the same weight twice eg Mon &amp; Wed then went to the next increment. (However I reduced the number of exercises to a minimum &quot;a la&quot; simplfy and win, my HST was the full &quot;vanilla&quot; program of 12 exercises)

    However I managed to injure my rotator (subscapularis) on my 3rd day of max-stim as someone came to talk to me and I &quot;forgot&quot; [​IMG] I'd not warmed my back up before cable rows as this was normally my last back exercise on the full vanilla HST.

    But it was already beginning to feel like too much weight (Before HST I've never gone much below 8RM). What have you guys found works best?
     
  18. bobpit

    bobpit New Member

    Dan

    1) About a year ago you had started the &quot;MaxStim Experiment&quot;. You would train 1 bicep the maxstim way and the other bicep in a different way. Did you ever finish the experiment? What were the results?

    2) I think the DLs are too tiring to do with same volume as the other exercises. I weight about 81 kgr. My 7RM DL is 145 kgr. I think that during maxstim or even HST, I should do HALF the volume for DLs.

    I tried maxstim in June and I felt that the DL and SQ was too difficult, felt overtrained. Other exercises were no problem.
     
  19. I have been curious about the separate arm training as well. I was going to ask myself, but you beat me to it.
     
  20. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (BenReffell @ Sep. 04 2008,3:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">(or anyone who has extended with max-stim)

    What sort of weight increments do you plan on using during the max-stim weeks?

    I just carried on with the normal HST increments into my max-stim weeks but did the same weight twice eg Mon &amp; Wed then went to the next increment.</div>
    I usually try to increment 5 lbs for arm exercises and 10 lbs for leg or full-body exercises. Of course, I'm doing a full cycle of Max-Stim; somebody who's only using it for the final two weeks of an HST cycle may want to do something different.

    Sometimes the equipment I use doesn't allow for small increments; that's when I'll used the same weight for two consecutive workouts.

    I've found that 20 reps of my 5RM makes for a pretty good workout. So long as I keep my M-time below 30 seconds, I'm still pretty much in line with what Dan Moore has suggested.
     

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