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Liege

For now it is ok as I am cutting, when I start bulking then I'll stop it!

What do you suggest for cardio then? None?
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(the_dark_master @ Nov. 20 2006,12:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I dare anyone to post these &quot;theories&quot; of fat utilisation upto Lyles board - then come back with the answers
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first of i wouldnt advise anyone to do hiit type cardio in the AM fasted.
doing ss-cardio is different as long as you dont do to much,and dont go above a certain bpm you will only use your fat stores,
now i know that fasted cardio am and hiit cardio unfasted,probably burn the same amount over a 24hr period,by different methods.
thats why i said if you do both then you are taking advantage of both methods.
also we are talking more about body composition here not total weight loss,i agree that cals in versus cals out over a 24hr period is what counts for total weight lost.
but if your saying that if two people eat 3000cls a day
A) eats 40%protein,40% carbs,20%fats.
B) eats 10%protein,50%fats,40%carbs,
that they will have the same body composition then i dissagree with you or lyle for that matter,
dont get me wrong i post on lyles site occasionally and i think he is totaly correct in a lot that he says,but people like lyle,berardi,and many other nutritionists and trainers dissagree on diet and training so who is correct
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so if you want to post it on lyles site go ahead,but just because they might say we are wrong that doesnt mean i have to agree with them(or infact that they are right)
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Faz

Makes sense the SS cardio fasted would burn the most fat, how long a session would you recommend?

Venuto says 30 minutes at least! and...

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The optimal zone for fat burning and cardiovascular conditioning is generally between 60% and 80% of your functional capacity or 70-85% of your age predicted maximum heart rate.</div>

And...I agree with you the guy eating A will be most likely to build muscle and loose fat.

About moring fasted cardio..arguments in favour of...

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Early morning fasted cardio: A simple method to increase the fat burning effects of your cardio by up to 300%

Any time of day that suits your schedule is a good time for cardio. The important thing is that you just do it. However, many bodybuilders and fitness models believe that early morning fasted cardio burns more body fat.

Although this is still controversial, the evidence is strong and there are many reasons to consider doing cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach.

The argument in favor of fasted early morning cardio goes something like this:

1. After an overnight 8-12 hour fast, your body's stores of glycogen are depleted and you burn more fat when glycogen is low.

2. Eating causes a release of insulin. Insulin interferes with the mobilization of body fat. Less insulin is present in the morning; so more body fat is burned when cardio is done in the morning.

3. There is less carbohydrate (glucose) in the bloodstream when you wake up after an overnight fast. With less glucose available, you burn more fat.

4. If you eat immediately before a workout, you have to burn off what you just ate first before tapping into stored body fat (and insulin is elevated after a meal.)

5. When you do cardio in the morning, your metabolism stays elevated for a period of time after the workout is over. If you do cardio in the evening, you burn calories during the session, but you fail to take advantage of the &quot;afterburn&quot; effect because your metabolic rate drops dramatically as soon as you go to sleep.

6. Morning cardio gives you a feeling of accomplishment and makes you feel great all day by releasing mood-enhancing endorphins.

7. Morning cardio &quot;energizes&quot; you and &quot;wakes you up.&quot;

8. Morning cardio may help regulate your appetite for the rest of the day.

9. Your body’s circadian rhythm adjusts to your morning routine, making it easier to wake up at the same time every day.

10. You’ll be less likely to &quot;blow off&quot; your workout when it’s out of the way early (like when you’re exhausted after work or when friends ask you to join them at the pub for happy hour).

11. You can always &quot;make time&quot; for exercise by setting your alarm earlier in the morning.

A common concern about doing cardio in the fasted state, especially if it’s done with high intensity, is the possibility of losing muscle. After an overnight fast, glycogen, blood glucose and insulin are all low.

This is an optimum environment for burning fat.

Unfortunately, it may also be an optimum environment for burning muscle because carbohydrate fuel sources are low and levels of the catabolic stress hormone cortisol are high. It sounds like morning cardio might be a double-edged sword, but there are ways to avert muscle loss.

All aerobic exercise will have some effect on building muscle, but as long as you don’t overdo it, you shouldn’t worry about losing muscle.

It's a fact that muscle proteins are broken down and used for energy during aerobic exercise. But you are constantly breaking down and re-building muscle tissue anyway.

This process is called &quot;protein turnover&quot; and it’s a daily fact of life.

Your goal is to tip the scales  lightly in favor of increasing the anabolic side and reducing the catabolic side with nutrition just enough so you stay anabolic and you maintain muscle.

How do you build up more muscle than you break down? First, avoid excessive cardio. If your lean body mass has dropped, try limiting your cardio on an empty stomach to 30 minutes, and then it would be highly unlikely that amino acids will be burned as fuel.

Bodybuilding nutritionist Chris Aceto suggests, &quot;A strong cup of coffee should facilitate a shifting to burn more fat and less glycogen. If you can spare glycogen, you’ll
ultimately spare protein too.”

Second, give your body the proper nutritional support. Losing muscle probably has more to do with inadequate nutrition than with excessive aerobics.

Third, keep training with heavy weights, even during a fat loss phase. Using light weights and higher reps thinking that it will help you get more &quot;cut&quot; is a mistake:

What put the muscle on in the first place is likely to help you keep it there. Morning cardio is still controversial in academic circles, but in my book, it’s a sure-fire way to double or even triple the fat burning effects of your cardio.

Ask any highlevel bodybuilder or fitness model when they do their cardio and the chances are good that they’ll tell you they’re working up a sweat before breakfast early every morning.
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nice article mate..i would say at least 30mins there are a few options,
most economical being walk,jog,cycle,to work
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but treadmill,or static-bike,are also good just remember not to fast if you cant talk while you are doing it then your going to fast,and the coffee is a good idea..no milk or sugar though
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I am gonna get a lot of slack for this but here goes anyway. I think the whole cardio, muscle catabolism is WAY overated. The amount of cardio I do, by way of mountain biking and roller training, would make most here vomit then faint. I logged in over 15000 km total riding this year. Plus at least 5 hours per week of spinning classes as an instructor. At the same time I lifted at least three days a week, full body and ate around 3000 calories perday average with about 1-1.5 kg protein per kg body weight ( average body weight over this year is about 92 kilograms with a body fat % fluctuating between 12-19%). I have continued to get much stronger and my LBM mass has continued to rise as I SLOWELY lose fat weight. The constant obsession over catabolism/increase in cortisol levels in response to the levels of cardio that I deduce (perhaps falsely) the majority of people on this board perform is bullshit. Marathon runners on the whole don´t do much weight training which is why the are emaciated. On the other hand, the amount weight training the average visitor of this forum performs will, by leaps and bounds, negate any of the small catabolism resulting from cardio. In addition, the amounts of protein most take in while further prevent any noticable LBM loss or loss of strength.
Anyone doing full body workouts, 3 x a week can easily do 3-5 hours of cardio per week without noticing anything more than a pleasent increase in their cardiovascular function, an increase in fat burning and maybe a slight increase in carb craving ( which is not a bad idea given the absurd amounts of proteins some ingest).
 
drpierredebs i agree that people get carried away and worry to much about overtraining as i posted on another thread.
but we are talking about fasted training so you have to be carefull.
pierre you obviously have your nutrition sorted well done.
but as an ex marathon runner myself i think you may find that most of them use weights one way or another nowadays.
i think its there fixation on pasta that lets them down.
 
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(faz @ Nov. 22 2006,08:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">but as an ex marathon runner myself i think you may find that most of them use weights one way or another nowadays.</div>
Most hardore marathon runners don´t lift anywhere near as much as the peeps on this forum. Mountain bikers are slightly more musclular because alot of the time MTB is more resistance training-like than not. Road bikers are wierdos hopped up on drugs anyway.

SHow me one top 25% marathoner in most age classes that is not anything but emaciated.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The constant obsession over catabolism/increase in cortisol levels in response to the levels of cardio that I deduce (perhaps falsely) the majority of people on this board perform is bullshit.</div>

I totally agree, now the reason I started this thread was really to obtain better knowledge of what i was doing wrong, the conclusion is I am not eating enough and do not have creatine therefore my performance cannot be the same...thus the reason why I decided to do a cut until I can get my hands on protein powder and creatine.

And I have just found today a great special which I am definitelly gonna get, and it includes free creatine, albeit small (100 g) p/evry 5 Kg tub of protein, worth it nevertheless as it is free!

Thanks Pierre for clarifying this...and for cementing something I always thought was BS anyway...I mean some dudes get up in the middle of the night to eat
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ridiculous...all in the name of avoiding catabolism. Duh!
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(drpierredebs @ Nov. 22 2006,13:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(faz @ Nov. 22 2006,08:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">but as an ex marathon runner myself i think you may find that most of them use weights one way or another nowadays.</div>
Most hardore marathon runners don´t lift anywhere near as much as the peeps on this forum. Mountain bikers are slightly more musclular because alot of the time MTB is more resistance training-like than not. Road bikers are wierdos hopped up on drugs anyway.

SHow me one top 25% marathoner in most age classes that is not anything but emaciated.</div>
again pierre i agree but if most marathon runners ate a better diet more protein as well as concentrating so much on carbs,they wouldnt look so thin.
and most of the guys i used to train with did most of there mileage in the AM so they were not properly fuelled anyway.

here is what i said on the other thread
personaly i think people worry to much about overtraining,if your diet rest and workout is spot on i think it is very difficult to overtrain.

we are built to work,and not twice a week everyday.

if you look at the ironage lifters like steve reeves etc they did a lot of volume,they had great bodies and were natural,we have the benefit of better diet supps etc .

imho i dont think you could build a great body with only 2 workouts a week,and i dont care what the studies say.

so i think you see i agree with you but when we are talking about fasted cardio you have to train smart.
 
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fausto here is an article on cutting
Getting Cut and Defined


Q: How do you recommend I modify my training if my goal is just to lean up and get some more tone and definition if I'm just interested in aesthetics? I've been training haphazardly for a couple of years now, and, although I'm satisfied with my strength and bulk I wanna get lean and muscular. I think I got my diet right but would you recommend I increase the volume overall, add in a lot more cardio, or do both?
A: Well first of all technically there is really no such thing as &quot;toning&quot; or &quot;defining&quot;. A muscle can get bigger or it can get smaller. The fat covering a muscle can get bigger or it can get smaller. You change the appearance of a muscle by either making the muscle bigger or smaller and making the fat covering it bigger or smaller. You can also change the perception of definition with a tan. That's all you can really do!

So the same things that best stimulate a muscle when trying to &quot;bulk up&quot; will be the exact same things that best stimulate or maintain a muscle when &quot;toning up&quot;. Muscle size and appearance is impacted by the amount of protein contained in a muscle as well as how much glycogen it contains (how pumped it is). Glycogen is nothing but energy stored in the muscle. A person's weight can fluctuate 5-10 pounds just based on glycogen storage.

Fat loss or gain is impacted by overall energy status. So if you wanna look defined the best way to do that is to burn off the fat by changing your overall energy status, which means burning up more calories then you take in.

A lot of people actually waste a lot of training and probably a lot of potential growth by training with too much volume during situations when they aren't going to grow much no matter what they do, (such as during a diet).

Here's an example of what a lot of people do: Let's say I normally train 4 days per week with an average of about 20 to 25 sets per workout. I decide I wanna get defined and shed 10 pounds of fat so I start reducing my calories. I also really increase the volume of my workouts and start throwing in every fancy exercise under the sun in an effort to &quot;tone up&quot; and &quot;get a burn&quot;, since that's what all the magazines tell me I need to be doing. So instead of 20 to 25 sets per workout I increase the volume to where I'm doing 50 sets per workout.

Am I gonna be able to get any growth out of that extra volume? Heck no! The fact that I'm in a caloric deficit means I'll be lucky to even be able to hang on to the muscle and strength I already have. Most likely I'd lose size and strength from overtraining. All that extra volume is doing is making me burn more calories and increasing my caloric deficit - a caloric deficit which just as easily be met with cardio or paying more attention to my diet. That doesn't mean all that extra volume won't &quot;stimulate&quot; growth because it will. It's just that, due to my diet, there won't be any raw material around to build muscle from the stimulation.

It's also my opinion that all that extra volume will make my muscles more resistant to microtrauma so that when I do eventually get in &quot;muscle-building&quot; mode again I'll have to train that much harder to stimulate any sort've a growth response.

In actuality, if I wanted to tone up and shed some fat I'd be better off either maintaining or even slightly reducing my weight training volume whilst doing everything I can to maintain or increase the load (weight). Strength and size can be maintained with 1/3 to 1/2 the volume it took to build them.
 
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(faz @ Nov. 23 2006,04:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(drpierredebs @ Nov. 22 2006,13:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(faz @ Nov. 22 2006,08:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">but as an ex marathon runner myself i think you may find that most of them use weights one way or another nowadays.</div>
Most hardore marathon runners don´t lift anywhere near as much as the peeps on this forum. Mountain bikers are slightly more musclular because alot of the time MTB is more resistance training-like than not. Road bikers are wierdos hopped up on drugs anyway.

SHow me one top 25% marathoner in most age classes that is not anything but emaciated.</div>
again pierre i agree but if most marathon runners ate a better diet more protein as well as concentrating so much on carbs,they wouldnt look so thin.
and most of the guys i used to train with did most of there mileage in the AM so they were not properly fuelled anyway.

here is what i said on the other thread
personaly i think people worry to much about overtraining,if your diet rest and workout is spot on i think it is very difficult to overtrain.

we are built to work,and not twice a week everyday.

if you look at the ironage lifters like steve reeves etc they did a lot of volume,they had great bodies and were natural,we have the benefit of better diet supps etc .

imho i dont think you could build a great body with only 2 workouts a week,and i dont care what the studies say.    

so i think you see i agree with you but when we are talking about fasted cardio  you have to train smart.</div>
Yes we do agree, but I don´t think elite marathon runners want to have any more LBM than they have-it is just that much more weight for them to lug around during the race. No amount of smart training will result in the elite marthonist with a higher LBM and remaining elite.

sorry guys if this got off topic.

I decided a long time ago that I didn´t want to be an emaciated bike marathonist.
In the end it is always nice passing others during race up a mountain with my 90+ kg muscle packed body whilst they are struggling with their prepubescent 60kg boney legs. The major advantage of lifting heavy is that I never have muscle soreness and my leg power blows the doors of most of these guys not only uphill but on the flats where I, and most other big strong riders, are much faster.
None the less, the winners are usually very light, no muscle mass and hearts the size of a beer keg.
 
To get this thread back on topic.....
Fausto, why not incorporate Max-stim into every exercise and at least try it out for one cycle? I see so many people here saying, &quot;yeah, I tried max-stim for such-and-such exercise and it is great, I love it, wish I could do it for all my exercises.&quot;
YOU CAN! I have a pretty nice home gym, but all free-wieghts, no machines and I can do a full on max-stim workout for the whole body in less than an hour. I have tried every workout method under the sun over the years, and nothing compares to this method. I think someone should make a video of a full max-stim workout over at Dan's forum, so people can see it is not so hard to do.
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Ok, Sci...teach me how to do bench off my cage the max-stim way and without a partner.

Squats? Same story.

Deadlifts/Chins/Cable rows/Conc. curls/Tricep cable extensions I have tried and practice quite often, in fact most of the time.

I just find that for some exercises it is not practical!
 
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(Fausto @ Nov. 23 2006,09:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ok, Sci...teach me how to do bench off my cage the max-stim way and without a partner.

Squats? Same story.

Deadlifts/Chins/Cable rows/Conc. curls/Tricep cable extensions I have tried and practice quite often, in fact most of the time.

I just find that for some exercises it is not practical!</div>
Fausto, how is your rack set?

What I'm getting at is........

If your rack (just going from the pic you attached) is of the type that you must lift the bar off the rack and then lower it to your chest, then MS is no problem. If you are starting out in the bottom position then I can see where there are issues.

Scimuscle asked if I can shoot a video illustrating MS with varying exercises. When my son comes home this Christmas I will borrow his digital cam and shot some videos showing the core movements and put them up on my site.

MS is not as difficult as it sounds but I agree there are limitations based on the varying equipment that is out there.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If your rack (just going from the pic you attached) is of the type that you must lift the bar off the rack and then lower it to your chest, then MS is no problem. If you are starting out in the bottom position then I can see where there are issues.</div>
I don't understand this in particular. My machine has safety pins for squat and bench.
a.) the squat starts at the top, and has settable stops at the bottom for safety, with a 'stay post' at the top that you use to stop the cradle up there. So for MS, you do one rep and put the stay in and rest. (I lengthened the post to where I just lift the weight 1&quot; to free it.
b.) My bench starts at the bottom, on your preset height. (one reason I don't like it.) For MS, you just push out one rep and rest at the bottom. It can't come down any more, and you take your hands off the bar.
So, what's the difference?
 
Get under bar, unrack, walk forward, squat, walk back and re-rack, breathe a few seconds, repeat.

I don't do benches anymore, but I do an incline press...Un-rack, lower the bar to chest...press to lockout, re-rack. Breathe a few seconds..repeat. Very easy. Also I do it with dips, chins, BB rows, dead-lifts, upright rows....also have done it with flat bench, curls, triceps pushdowns, lat pull-downs, incline weighted crunches, Military press, shrugs, etc.......
 
First to Dan

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fausto, how is your rack set?

What I'm getting at is........

If your rack (just going from the pic you attached) is of the type that you must lift the bar off the rack and then lower it to your chest, then MS is no problem. If you are starting out in the bottom position then I can see where there are issues.</div>

Man...Dan...Its a big shlep...re-racking evry time...with a partner and with some time to flirt with it is ok...but alone, it is another story...besides the fact that alone I can only bench about 80 Kg. for safety reasons...I can surely try it and see, I may just end up doing 20 reps with 80 when normally I can only push about 8 tops.

As for the set up, it is variable, I normally set it up at the top as it is much easier to get the weight off, from the bottom....can be done, but it is way more difficult to get the bar off...I suppose I must get used to it, unfortunatelly the bar I got with the rack, is just big enough so I cannot use it as a safety cage, bacause the weight invariably starts knocking the stops driving me crazy and taking all my concentration off.
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Get under bar, unrack, walk forward, squat, walk back and re-rack, breathe a few seconds, repeat.</div>

Sci...that sounds like torture...besides being a big shlep...but I must agree of course it can be done...it is a mind over matter type of thing
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Normally when I train I try to get done a.s.a.p., as by the time I'm finished the wifey is just about dishing up, gives me a solid 45 minutes with warm up and all, but I have to move my ass through the program...else I'll be eating alone
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I ma sure some of you guys do not have this problem, specially the &quot;spring chickens&quot;
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but most of the married guys who train at home have all kinds of other commitments which get in the way!
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fausto having your own gym should be an advantage for max-stim.
when i get one i will be giving it a go and maybe using it for post 5s.
i tried it at the last gym i was at ,the problem is that when someone is waiting for a bench or squat rack everytime you rerack they walk towards you ,then when you pick the weight up again they give you funny looks,and when you do that 20 times they think your taking the p**s
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">fausto having your own gym should be an advantage for max-stim.</div>

Yes and no...I still find max-stim most applicable to leverage type machines, but one can of course make adjustments and so forth!
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