TangoDown's Vanilla HST Run
- Thread starter TangoDown
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TangoDown
Member
Thanks!
Yeah I'll keep that in mind. If I improve the break I think I can finish 405lb at this point. I'll keep playing around.
A friend of mine is interested in the program you wrote for me. Difference being, he wants squat to be as primary a movement as deadlift (whereas I'm just using leg press once a week at 80% triples). How would you program that?
About him: He's 5'8" like me and recently cut to 140lb (don't ask me why...). He's squatted 325lb @ 160lb but his best bench was only 185lb. He's got decently strong legs but I think he needs direct back work programmed in because his upper back strength is a real weakness for him - reason being his best deadlift is only 10lb higher than his best squat squat.
He finished out 5x5 last fall and has been struggling with intermediate progression since. Tried out some Russian volume programs which didn't work for him but I think he didn't eat enough. I think he tried out Candito's program too.
This is the program as you wrote it without modifications so you don't have to dig:
This + 2 days a week of rest-pause bench @ 90%. Dunno how necessary this is with his bench #s but what do you think?
Yeah I'll keep that in mind. If I improve the break I think I can finish 405lb at this point. I'll keep playing around.
A friend of mine is interested in the program you wrote for me. Difference being, he wants squat to be as primary a movement as deadlift (whereas I'm just using leg press once a week at 80% triples). How would you program that?
About him: He's 5'8" like me and recently cut to 140lb (don't ask me why...). He's squatted 325lb @ 160lb but his best bench was only 185lb. He's got decently strong legs but I think he needs direct back work programmed in because his upper back strength is a real weakness for him - reason being his best deadlift is only 10lb higher than his best squat squat.
He finished out 5x5 last fall and has been struggling with intermediate progression since. Tried out some Russian volume programs which didn't work for him but I think he didn't eat enough. I think he tried out Candito's program too.
This is the program as you wrote it without modifications so you don't have to dig:
This + 2 days a week of rest-pause bench @ 90%. Dunno how necessary this is with his bench #s but what do you think?
My personal thoughts was squats, as well as quads hypertrophy is that the ideal program functions around back squats, front squats and power cleans. I will presume that Bulgarian training is not an option.
M: 10-15 singles at 90%. 3min rest periods
W: Front squats - 15 reps of triples, at 85% of your front squat max. I generally don't recommend front squat maxing for 1RM, but 3RM and 5RM is certainly fine. Power cleans as well, working up to 3-4 triples.
F: 10-15 reps in doubles and triples at 85%. 5min rest periods.
When you can't add load, you add volume to each cluster but maintain the total volume (don't go from 10-15 in clusters of 2, to 20-30 in clusters of 4). When your double has become a quad for 2-3 clusters then add load again.
1. Use a damn squat rack.
2. If you're low bar squatting, then I advise doing a pyramid of deadlifts on Wednesday up to a top set triple, but nothing else. If you're high-barring, then man up and do deadlifts.
3. This is about getting stronger, which means muscle will follow if you eat properly. Squats are generally not regarded as being force-production dependent lifts like O-lifting, though obviously there's a grey area there.
M: 10-15 singles at 90%. 3min rest periods
W: Front squats - 15 reps of triples, at 85% of your front squat max. I generally don't recommend front squat maxing for 1RM, but 3RM and 5RM is certainly fine. Power cleans as well, working up to 3-4 triples.
F: 10-15 reps in doubles and triples at 85%. 5min rest periods.
When you can't add load, you add volume to each cluster but maintain the total volume (don't go from 10-15 in clusters of 2, to 20-30 in clusters of 4). When your double has become a quad for 2-3 clusters then add load again.
1. Use a damn squat rack.
2. If you're low bar squatting, then I advise doing a pyramid of deadlifts on Wednesday up to a top set triple, but nothing else. If you're high-barring, then man up and do deadlifts.
3. This is about getting stronger, which means muscle will follow if you eat properly. Squats are generally not regarded as being force-production dependent lifts like O-lifting, though obviously there's a grey area there.
TangoDown
Member
Sounds good. I'll let him know all this.
Considering his bench numbers I think I'll have him cluster bench. Start 2 intervals under 5RM, cluster 12-15 reps at 2 minutes rest. If he's getting like 5, 3, 3 or 5, 4, 3, or 4, 4, 4, he can move the weight up by 5lb. Point is to increase reps in clusters to decrease total amount of clusters.
I suppose twice a week, maybe 3 times considering his bench is low.
Back work, I don't know if I want to give him rows because he's complained in the past of cheating - especially with Pendlays. Maybe I'd just have him grease the grooves with BW pullups/chinups until he can do 15 and then start adding weight and clustering those. He should get there fairly fast at his new low body weight.
As for deadlift, how should that be programmed? I assume all of that in your writeup is for squat. Is he just deadlifting as was written in my program? I saw your comment on deadlifting on Weds. But is he just deadlifting on Weds? He's going to do high bar because of bicep tendonitis.
Considering his bench numbers I think I'll have him cluster bench. Start 2 intervals under 5RM, cluster 12-15 reps at 2 minutes rest. If he's getting like 5, 3, 3 or 5, 4, 3, or 4, 4, 4, he can move the weight up by 5lb. Point is to increase reps in clusters to decrease total amount of clusters.
I suppose twice a week, maybe 3 times considering his bench is low.
Back work, I don't know if I want to give him rows because he's complained in the past of cheating - especially with Pendlays. Maybe I'd just have him grease the grooves with BW pullups/chinups until he can do 15 and then start adding weight and clustering those. He should get there fairly fast at his new low body weight.
As for deadlift, how should that be programmed? I assume all of that in your writeup is for squat. Is he just deadlifting as was written in my program? I saw your comment on deadlifting on Weds. But is he just deadlifting on Weds? He's going to do high bar because of bicep tendonitis.
No, he needs rows. Spinal erectors (ass to neck) and traps are not going to be involved enough. Landmine rows are a strong choice as they put the muscles concerned in a stretched position. Having said that, the recovery time for these can vary between individuals.
He absolutely needs to be doing work for this pulling chain. Cheating at Pendlays is not the end of the world - Google up 'Rubish Rows' - they're an entirely viable replacement option. Snatch Grip Pendlays are also viable. Lying/supported rows are fine. The other point to make is that dynamic torso movement during rows is expected IMO, as holding a perfectly still torso is not going to be possible at heavier loads, and IMO not safe.
Deadlift programming as above - pyramid up on Wednesday to a top set of triple. Frankly, I'd probably do 3-4 top triples. Considering squat volume and frequency, and squat being what he cares about ... that's what I'd do for someone at this level. On M and F I would advocate doing 12-15 max-stim rack pull reps, at approximately 3-4RM load. Set it one inch below the knees.
He absolutely needs to be doing work for this pulling chain. Cheating at Pendlays is not the end of the world - Google up 'Rubish Rows' - they're an entirely viable replacement option. Snatch Grip Pendlays are also viable. Lying/supported rows are fine. The other point to make is that dynamic torso movement during rows is expected IMO, as holding a perfectly still torso is not going to be possible at heavier loads, and IMO not safe.
Deadlift programming as above - pyramid up on Wednesday to a top set of triple. Frankly, I'd probably do 3-4 top triples. Considering squat volume and frequency, and squat being what he cares about ... that's what I'd do for someone at this level. On M and F I would advocate doing 12-15 max-stim rack pull reps, at approximately 3-4RM load. Set it one inch below the knees.
TangoDown
Member
About 170lb
Tried to alter bench form by bringing the bar down farther to prevent it from coming down too high when fatigued. Didn't work out to well. I'll either retest 205 hoping for 5 reps next session or just move up to 210 and do my rest-pause there. I really feel like, on a set I'm locked in, there should be no reason why 205lb doesn't go up 5 times.
Got 8x1 sumo DL @ 350lb. Felt decent.
Weighted Pullups: Belt + 65lb x 4, x 3, x 3 (PR)
Not sure how clean the pullups were so I'll repeat again next time.
Tried to alter bench form by bringing the bar down farther to prevent it from coming down too high when fatigued. Didn't work out to well. I'll either retest 205 hoping for 5 reps next session or just move up to 210 and do my rest-pause there. I really feel like, on a set I'm locked in, there should be no reason why 205lb doesn't go up 5 times.
Got 8x1 sumo DL @ 350lb. Felt decent.
Weighted Pullups: Belt + 65lb x 4, x 3, x 3 (PR)
Not sure how clean the pullups were so I'll repeat again next time.
Considering you're in a bulk, I'm going to propose using 90% for clusters of singles, doubles and triples, rep total of 10 or so (8, 12, 11, 9, whatever) and punch them out 2-3 times a week. When you cannot progress your load for non-spotted singles, then start to add reps until your single becomes a triple, and then add load.
I expect a 220lb single within 4 weeks, at 2-3 sessions per week. Realistically I think 3 sessions is probably better for you right now. You're young, rotators are fine and you may as well get the motor patterns down pat. Try and do triples of push press (OHP or BTN, doesn't matter) at a 85% twice a week after benching. 2-3 triples at your working weight. These should be explosive, and not grinding reps at all. Take the eccentric a tad slower, and definitely make sure it's a push-press and not a standing press w/minimal assistance. That eccentric will be fully loaded (eccentrics being the muscle builders and all). Personally I would advocate BTN with a median grip, but either is fine.
TangoDown
Member
Had a pushup contest with my friend. I haven't done pushups in like 3 years lol. Got 58, chest to fist in a little over a minute. He beat me by 3 (though he weights 5lb less than me).
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@ Jester:
I have been doing that @ 90%, only singles with rest-pause (so rest-periods of 15-30 seconds) as opposed to real singles where you wait 3-5 minutes. Rep goal is 8-10, 2 days a week (you suggested the rep goal and days). You saying I should do away with the rest-pause?
And you sure its feasible to say that I can increase my 4RM (90%) 10lb-15lb in only 4 weeks? That seems like a liberal estimate to be honest. Remember that I'm only 5'8" and sub-180lb. 220lb x 4/215lb x 5 isn't necessarily all that nooby of a weight for my size.
As for the OHP, I'm already in the gym 2 hours a session on Tues and Fri (deadlift doubles/singles take forever when resting 5 minutes between sets) so I don't know if adding something else is going to work for me. If I did switch to straight singles on bench w/o rest-pause then that's going to increase the time even more as is. The OHP could be an option if I keep the rest-pause going on bench though.
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@ Jester:
I have been doing that @ 90%, only singles with rest-pause (so rest-periods of 15-30 seconds) as opposed to real singles where you wait 3-5 minutes. Rep goal is 8-10, 2 days a week (you suggested the rep goal and days). You saying I should do away with the rest-pause?
And you sure its feasible to say that I can increase my 4RM (90%) 10lb-15lb in only 4 weeks? That seems like a liberal estimate to be honest. Remember that I'm only 5'8" and sub-180lb. 220lb x 4/215lb x 5 isn't necessarily all that nooby of a weight for my size.
As for the OHP, I'm already in the gym 2 hours a session on Tues and Fri (deadlift doubles/singles take forever when resting 5 minutes between sets) so I don't know if adding something else is going to work for me. If I did switch to straight singles on bench w/o rest-pause then that's going to increase the time even more as is. The OHP could be an option if I keep the rest-pause going on bench though.
TangoDown
Member
Weight: 171lb
Leg Press (non-plate loaded) @ 80% 1RM:
245lb, 295lb
355lb 4x3
Ab Machine (2.5 min/cluster):
130 x 8
155lb x 6, x 5, x 4
High-Intensity Elliptical:
10 minutes at almost max-max resistance, approx 160-200 cals burned
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Didn't do any pullups today because my deltoids and the origin of my lats are both sore from yesterday's pushups. Leg press felt okay...a little bit harder than expected. Moved up to 355lb today (machine max is 505lb).
Decided to throw in some ab work because I never work my core and have never had visible abs regardless of body fat and have always felt my core is one of my weakest parts. This is the machine I used. A lot of people train think you need to train abs with no resistance and with a lot of repetitions but I view them as any other muscle. I don't see why heavy ab work is a bad thing, but I'm not a big fan of weighted crunches at low reps due to the stress it puts on the spine. I also tried the P90X ab ripper x stuff in the past but it's a lot of random movements without any progression built in so I don't think it's very effective.
I'm thinking about buying an ab wheel and using that too. Start at the ROM I can do and eventually work into full ROM.
Anyway, already feel the DOMS starting up.
Leg Press (non-plate loaded) @ 80% 1RM:
245lb, 295lb
355lb 4x3
Ab Machine (2.5 min/cluster):
130 x 8
155lb x 6, x 5, x 4
High-Intensity Elliptical:
10 minutes at almost max-max resistance, approx 160-200 cals burned
_______________________________
Didn't do any pullups today because my deltoids and the origin of my lats are both sore from yesterday's pushups. Leg press felt okay...a little bit harder than expected. Moved up to 355lb today (machine max is 505lb).
Decided to throw in some ab work because I never work my core and have never had visible abs regardless of body fat and have always felt my core is one of my weakest parts. This is the machine I used. A lot of people train think you need to train abs with no resistance and with a lot of repetitions but I view them as any other muscle. I don't see why heavy ab work is a bad thing, but I'm not a big fan of weighted crunches at low reps due to the stress it puts on the spine. I also tried the P90X ab ripper x stuff in the past but it's a lot of random movements without any progression built in so I don't think it's very effective.
I'm thinking about buying an ab wheel and using that too. Start at the ROM I can do and eventually work into full ROM.
Anyway, already feel the DOMS starting up.
Last edited:
TangoDown
Member
Weight: 171lb @ 5'8"
Bench (Rest-Pause @ 90%, 15-45 seconds between reps):
135lb x 5, 160lb x 3, 190lb x 2
8x1 @ 210lb (PR)
Sumo Deadlift (85%):
135lb x 5, 225lb x 4, 275lb x 3
2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1 @ 330lb
Weighted Pullups (Clustered, 2 minutes b/w):
BW x 5, Belt + 45lb x 3,
5, 3, 2 @ Belt + 65lb (PR)
Ab Machine:
absaodi fuck that, will buy an ab wheel
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Woke up with a kink in my neck that flared up on the last rep of pullups. Fuck.
Bench (Rest-Pause @ 90%, 15-45 seconds between reps):
135lb x 5, 160lb x 3, 190lb x 2
8x1 @ 210lb (PR)
Sumo Deadlift (85%):
135lb x 5, 225lb x 4, 275lb x 3
2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1 @ 330lb
Weighted Pullups (Clustered, 2 minutes b/w):
BW x 5, Belt + 45lb x 3,
5, 3, 2 @ Belt + 65lb (PR)
Ab Machine:
absaodi fuck that, will buy an ab wheel
____________________
Woke up with a kink in my neck that flared up on the last rep of pullups. Fuck.
TangoDown
Member
I've only been doing leg press honestly. Not the plate-loaded variety; it's the kind where you push yourself away from the platform. 4x3 at 80% on Sundays. I don't think it's enough. I don't have small legs and my glutes are pretty large for my frame but I think I've always had issues with quad strength. My weakness in the sumo is always the break off the ground. That was what made the 385 pull a max for me IMO. Once it was off the ground it felt more like 2-3RM speed.
I'm not willing to squat given the lack of power rack in my gym though. I could start working in front squat I suppose but I still don't like doing it without safety pins. I'd be willing to do more leg press lol, or you can propose an alternative. I'd also like to increase hamstring mobility. Tried some self-PNF stretching and can never do it right.
I'm not willing to squat given the lack of power rack in my gym though. I could start working in front squat I suppose but I still don't like doing it without safety pins. I'd be willing to do more leg press lol, or you can propose an alternative. I'd also like to increase hamstring mobility. Tried some self-PNF stretching and can never do it right.
Front squats are fine without a rack. Much better than back squats without a rack.
Leg press w/narrow stance. Do it using a reduce ROM to remove some of the PC work. Glutes especially can just dominate a leg press (ala horizontal deadlift).
Split squats in the smith machine are excellent.
BW squats - pistol style.
BB Hack Squats (imagine a deadlift where the bar is behind you and torso more upright, hips lower - that's what I'm talking about).
Also, heavy ass shrugs. BB, Smith Machine but not DB. The break needs an explosive pull (but not a yank).
TangoDown
Member
I'd be down to do leg press w/ narrow stance and maybe the split squats in smith machine. I might save the split squat stuff for another time. The smith machine is in perpetual use at my gym (no surprise lol).
ROM is already sot of restricted on the leg press in that the deepest I can make it is a bit higher than parallel.
Cluster or heavy, low volume work? Keep the 4x3 leg press @ 80% on Sundays or not?
ROM is already sot of restricted on the leg press in that the deepest I can make it is a bit higher than parallel.
Cluster or heavy, low volume work? Keep the 4x3 leg press @ 80% on Sundays or not?
I still think you need to do front squats. They're by far the best assistance exercise for deadlift leg drive. Box squats w/conventional deadlift stance are good too.
Honestly, probably just worth fighting for smith machine access to do split squats safely.
Step-ups are good too but you need a power rack or band support under the BB to do those safely.
Honestly, probably just worth fighting for smith machine access to do split squats safely.
Step-ups are good too but you need a power rack or band support under the BB to do those safely.