The Road to 10%
- Thread starter colby2152
- Start date
scientific muscle
New Member
*edit-
I am curious where did this idea of super-slow-cutting come from? As far as I know one can lose 1-2 pounds/week without adversely affecting muscle mass as long as protein and RE are done. I don't see any benefit to losing 1/2 pound/week or less.
I am curious where did this idea of super-slow-cutting come from? As far as I know one can lose 1-2 pounds/week without adversely affecting muscle mass as long as protein and RE are done. I don't see any benefit to losing 1/2 pound/week or less.
How would you know Sci? We all have different metabolisms, and it's not like you're carrying around two hundred pounds of extra muscle either. Look at Slapshot. He slow cut quite successfully, although I disagree with his decision to STAY down there, he's also slowly putting more beef on, meanwhile being the strongest little pecker around for his size.
I just don't think we can diss anyone for doing what works for them personally. He posted his reasons a while back too. I found that I can lose muscle quite quickly - one reason I neglect cutting at all. You may not have that problem.
I just don't think we can diss anyone for doing what works for them personally. He posted his reasons a while back too. I found that I can lose muscle quite quickly - one reason I neglect cutting at all. You may not have that problem.
scientific muscle
New Member
I am not dissing anybody, but I edited my post in the form of a question. I still don't understand the super-slow cutting idea.
<div>
(scientific muscle @ Dec. 27 2007,20:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">*edit-
I am curious where did this idea of super-slow-cutting come from? As far as I know one can lose 1-2 pounds/week without adversely affecting muscle mass as long as protein and RE are done. I don't see any benefit to losing 1/2 pound/week or less.</div>
It's a legit question, Sci, but the blanket "1-2" pounds per week doesn't work for all, especially those of us who, after bulking, are only 175 pounds
Now, that said, I ran my cut not by the scale, but by the BF analyses I would get every 4 weeks or so. My BW changed very little as I dropped from 10% to around 7%, but my body comp numbers changed dramatically.
IMHO, to purely judge a cut by the scale is misleading. BF analyses and the mirror are a much better judge...and when you take things slowly, the scale simply doesn't change that much as you near the end.
(scientific muscle @ Dec. 27 2007,20:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">*edit-
I am curious where did this idea of super-slow-cutting come from? As far as I know one can lose 1-2 pounds/week without adversely affecting muscle mass as long as protein and RE are done. I don't see any benefit to losing 1/2 pound/week or less.</div>
It's a legit question, Sci, but the blanket "1-2" pounds per week doesn't work for all, especially those of us who, after bulking, are only 175 pounds
Now, that said, I ran my cut not by the scale, but by the BF analyses I would get every 4 weeks or so. My BW changed very little as I dropped from 10% to around 7%, but my body comp numbers changed dramatically.
IMHO, to purely judge a cut by the scale is misleading. BF analyses and the mirror are a much better judge...and when you take things slowly, the scale simply doesn't change that much as you near the end.
scientific muscle
New Member
I agree slapshotz that it depends on bodyfat levels, but at 14-15% bodyfat, 1-2 pounds is still a 'slow' cut. When you did your cut, you were alot leaner so the slower pace made alot of sense.
Anyway, Colby didn't mean to turn your log into a debate!
Sorry.
Anyway, Colby didn't mean to turn your log into a debate!
This of course doesn't take into account initial fatloss that just drops off some heavier guys in the first couple weeks.
It all depends on how much bodyfat you have to lose. More bodyfat means that you can lose more per week without as high a chance of muscle loss. Clearly, a guy at 20% bodyfat is in less danger of losing muscle than a guy at 8% who's trying to lose those last two percentage points, as the less fat you have, the more your body wants to hang on to it.
I'll answer a few quick questions. I have been slow cutting because I was losing a lot of time in late autumn and was unable to workout with good frequency. The slow cutting has worked albeit my body weight has stayed the same. Give me a few days to shed the holiday pounds, and I will post my pictures of post-HST cycle #12! Frequency increased right before Christmas, and I am just off an SD and about to start a 912 HST cycle. As far as a 912 cycle is concerned, it is 9 days of SD followed by 12 straight days of lifting. It was modeled as a quick cut (1000 calorie deficits). The 12 days is short enough to allow the metabolism to stay up to par. I will progress fairly quickly from my 10RM to my 5RM and then to even heavier loads in the last few days. Not even two weeks of a full out assault on my body keeps it from lowering metabolic rate.
I have always wanted to try it since I started HST nearly two and a half years ago, and now seems like the right time. Sci, you'll be happy that my slow cut is taking a break!
I have always wanted to try it since I started HST nearly two and a half years ago, and now seems like the right time. Sci, you'll be happy that my slow cut is taking a break!
TunnelRat
Active Member
<div>
(colby2152 @ Jan. 02 2008,09:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...I am just off an SD and about to start a 912 HST cycle. As far as a 912 cycle is concerned, it is 9 days of SD followed by 12 straight days of lifting. It was modeled as a quick cut (1000 calorie deficits). The 12 days is short enough to allow the metabolism to stay up to par. I will progress fairly quickly from my 10RM to my 5RM and then to even heavier loads in the last few days.</div>
Interesting --will you report your results here?
(colby2152 @ Jan. 02 2008,09:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...I am just off an SD and about to start a 912 HST cycle. As far as a 912 cycle is concerned, it is 9 days of SD followed by 12 straight days of lifting. It was modeled as a quick cut (1000 calorie deficits). The 12 days is short enough to allow the metabolism to stay up to par. I will progress fairly quickly from my 10RM to my 5RM and then to even heavier loads in the last few days.</div>
Interesting --will you report your results here?
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
I just dont see how working out 12 days in a row is a good thing?
I have always believed that you need to rest some to?
I am all for increased frequency but WOW.
Although I think 12 days of Full body workouts will burn the hell out of some calories!
Colby im guessing you have had great results off that frequency?
I have always believed that you need to rest some to?
I am all for increased frequency but WOW.
Although I think 12 days of Full body workouts will burn the hell out of some calories!
Colby im guessing you have had great results off that frequency?
TunnelRat
Active Member
[Caveat: I have no idea where I got the following from, though probably from somewhere on the HST website -- TR]
912: Optimizing for Dieting
This progressive load plan is optimized for dieting. This is, however, not for getting cut or for slow regulated dieting (i.e. "steady progress".) 912HST is a sledgehammer method for people who want to lose larger quantities of fat as quickly as possible. Who wants to wait for months for their wash board abs?
912HST is designated after the timetable of its workplan, where a twelve-day training phase is followed by a nine-day strategic deconditioning (SD). The unusually short duration of the training period permits maximum volume and maximum frequency. In only twelve days one can practically train as much as one wants, without burning out. One mantains during the entire training period a high calorie deficit between 500 to 2000kcal, depending upon how quickly one wants to lose. Loading days are not performed. The twelve days are too short to cause an excessively strong effect on metabolic slowdown. Then, during the nine-day SD one eats without calorie deficit, whereby the metabolism can recover again completely and be prepared for the next cycle.
With 912 one begins the cycle somewhat at a hevier than the conventional progressive load. 80% 1RM is the minimum weight. With exercises, which one can implement as negatives, the takeoff weight may even be yet high. One increases up to the schwerstmoegliche weight. Is trained (naturally) each day, whereby one should make at least each third day a resistance increase. The following SD is not sufficient, in order to decondition completely, however it is long enough in order to make the above 80% load again effective.
How does it work?
Effective resistance training causes high energy consumption more than during the exercise. In addition, the muscle regeneration requires a significant energy supply. One induces post-exercise energy consumption, or EPOC (excess post office exercise oxygen consumption.) There is also energy required for repairing muscle tissue, glycogen synthesis and creatine phosphate's high-energy needs and. The post exercise trainings energy consumption depends particularly on the training weight. The higher the resistance, the higher the following EPOC. With a training such as 912HST, post exercise can burn calories of at least 100% of that burned during the training session. That means: a 80kg athlete with a metabolic burn rate of approx. 1800kcal burns another 1800kcal per 912HST session. Moreover, the energy consumption of the training is actually not yet considered. Thus, heavy training burns a lot of energy, which tears into the diet and burns bodyfat.
To the training-induced energy consumption a further factor is added. Heavy, eccentric training according to the progressive load principles, with high volume and high frequency, provides not only maximum energy consumption, but also the complete repair of the muscle mass or with smaller caloric deficits even muscle growth. With 912HST one can gain its lean mass independently of the caloric deficit! The protein for the regeneration and for possible muscle growth gets itself the body from other materials, if it is not sufficiently supplied with the food. A diet as a short as a twelve-day phase would not be sufficient with appropriate training to lose muscle tissue.
Cluster training
912 benefits from a system of fatigue management called cluster training. Cluster training is simply and easily splitting up the training sets into individual, smaller fragments. The reason behind it is to avoid muscular exhaustion, in order to more easily mantain high training volume and high frequency. An example for clarity: One plans a total volume of 10 repetitions per session with a certain exercise. Instead of implementing these 10 reps into one set, which would be very fatiguing, one divides it as desired up, e.g. on 5+5, or 3+3+3+1, with short rests between them. Its total fatigue does not play a role. It does not matter how one divides it, only the total number of repetitions.
**********************************************************
Frequently Asked Questions
Q: Only twelve days train? Isn't that somewhat too short?
A: No! A twelve-day cycle appears somewhat short in the comparison to the conventional, progressive load, but one must regard the relationship from WO days to SD plus non-WO days. A normal cycle, with which each second day one trains and which a 14 SD follows, has a ratio from 21 training days to (21 non-WO days + 14 days SD = 35 inactive days. That results in a training of 0.6. 912HST has a ratio of12 training days to 9 SD days = 12:9 and has thus a quotient of 1.3. Mathematically, 912HST contains more than twice as much training per time unit in the comparison to the classical progressive load.
Q: Right then. But isn't the SD much too short, to completely decondition ? One trains on 912 with very heavy weights, which conditions the muscle tissue very strongly.
A: The nine-day SD is enough, in order to respond again to weights of approx. 80%. A complete Decondition is not necessary, since we begin with 912 anyway relatively heavily.
Q: But why only twelve days training? One could begin with less difficulty and lift through six weeks.
A: In order to really drive the energy usage into astronomical heights and therefore accelerate Dieting strongly, we must put on enormously high volume with 912HST with very high frequency. That leads on a long-term basis to burning out and over training symptoms. The short cycle permits us to train almost as much as desired. In only twelve days one does not burn out. The following SD permits complete regeneration and makes thus a further high-volume training period possible.
Q: May I add Cardio and/or interval training, in order to accelerate the thing still another little?
A: Naturally, everything is permitted. One considers however that Cardio and interval training in comparison to heavy weight training produces only a very small transformation of energy. The basis of the training must remain heavy training.
Q: No loading days? I thought, those would be so important, in order to hold the metabolism above.
A: Those also important, however 912HST has only a relatively short Diet phase. After the twelve days, the metabolism cannot drop so far that the dieting becomes ineffective. That is alone already prevented by training. The following SD is, as it were, a replacement for Refeeds, since during rest, one eats and the metabolism is once again set in motion.
Q: Which role does nutrition play? How am I to eat?
A: With the nutrition, attention is only actually to the calorie deficit. Whether one is now a follower of the Ketogenic Diet or trusts in good old low fat, does not make a difference. I recommend however to consume carbohydrates at least after training in order to fill up the glycogen stores at least partly again. That is more beneficial for the achievement in training than completely carbhohydrate nutrition. Naturally, attention must be moreover paid to protein, a high protein supply of approx. 2g. per kilogram body weight. But it does not necessary mean a bodybuilding diet.
Q: You said the body could get itself the protein for growth and regeneration from other material. What do you mean by it?
A: If the muscle is forced to grow with insufficient protein and energy input by an enormously strong growth signal (as with 912) to, then it can gain protein for skin, hair, fingernails, organs, bone, the immune system etc., necessary for it. The necessary energy comes naturally from the fatty tissue. In addition the body can use amino acids to a certain degree; (bears in hibernation completely use amino acids completely and lose no lean mass - unfortunately humans cannot do this). That means that the body can grow and regenerate at short notice independently of the nutrition. This is a further advantage of the short train/rest period of 912. On a long-term basis, thus over months and years, one naturally requires sufficient nutrition.
912: Optimizing for Dieting
This progressive load plan is optimized for dieting. This is, however, not for getting cut or for slow regulated dieting (i.e. "steady progress".) 912HST is a sledgehammer method for people who want to lose larger quantities of fat as quickly as possible. Who wants to wait for months for their wash board abs?
912HST is designated after the timetable of its workplan, where a twelve-day training phase is followed by a nine-day strategic deconditioning (SD). The unusually short duration of the training period permits maximum volume and maximum frequency. In only twelve days one can practically train as much as one wants, without burning out. One mantains during the entire training period a high calorie deficit between 500 to 2000kcal, depending upon how quickly one wants to lose. Loading days are not performed. The twelve days are too short to cause an excessively strong effect on metabolic slowdown. Then, during the nine-day SD one eats without calorie deficit, whereby the metabolism can recover again completely and be prepared for the next cycle.
With 912 one begins the cycle somewhat at a hevier than the conventional progressive load. 80% 1RM is the minimum weight. With exercises, which one can implement as negatives, the takeoff weight may even be yet high. One increases up to the schwerstmoegliche weight. Is trained (naturally) each day, whereby one should make at least each third day a resistance increase. The following SD is not sufficient, in order to decondition completely, however it is long enough in order to make the above 80% load again effective.
How does it work?
Effective resistance training causes high energy consumption more than during the exercise. In addition, the muscle regeneration requires a significant energy supply. One induces post-exercise energy consumption, or EPOC (excess post office exercise oxygen consumption.) There is also energy required for repairing muscle tissue, glycogen synthesis and creatine phosphate's high-energy needs and. The post exercise trainings energy consumption depends particularly on the training weight. The higher the resistance, the higher the following EPOC. With a training such as 912HST, post exercise can burn calories of at least 100% of that burned during the training session. That means: a 80kg athlete with a metabolic burn rate of approx. 1800kcal burns another 1800kcal per 912HST session. Moreover, the energy consumption of the training is actually not yet considered. Thus, heavy training burns a lot of energy, which tears into the diet and burns bodyfat.
To the training-induced energy consumption a further factor is added. Heavy, eccentric training according to the progressive load principles, with high volume and high frequency, provides not only maximum energy consumption, but also the complete repair of the muscle mass or with smaller caloric deficits even muscle growth. With 912HST one can gain its lean mass independently of the caloric deficit! The protein for the regeneration and for possible muscle growth gets itself the body from other materials, if it is not sufficiently supplied with the food. A diet as a short as a twelve-day phase would not be sufficient with appropriate training to lose muscle tissue.
Cluster training
912 benefits from a system of fatigue management called cluster training. Cluster training is simply and easily splitting up the training sets into individual, smaller fragments. The reason behind it is to avoid muscular exhaustion, in order to more easily mantain high training volume and high frequency. An example for clarity: One plans a total volume of 10 repetitions per session with a certain exercise. Instead of implementing these 10 reps into one set, which would be very fatiguing, one divides it as desired up, e.g. on 5+5, or 3+3+3+1, with short rests between them. Its total fatigue does not play a role. It does not matter how one divides it, only the total number of repetitions.
**********************************************************
Frequently Asked Questions
Q: Only twelve days train? Isn't that somewhat too short?
A: No! A twelve-day cycle appears somewhat short in the comparison to the conventional, progressive load, but one must regard the relationship from WO days to SD plus non-WO days. A normal cycle, with which each second day one trains and which a 14 SD follows, has a ratio from 21 training days to (21 non-WO days + 14 days SD = 35 inactive days. That results in a training of 0.6. 912HST has a ratio of12 training days to 9 SD days = 12:9 and has thus a quotient of 1.3. Mathematically, 912HST contains more than twice as much training per time unit in the comparison to the classical progressive load.
Q: Right then. But isn't the SD much too short, to completely decondition ? One trains on 912 with very heavy weights, which conditions the muscle tissue very strongly.
A: The nine-day SD is enough, in order to respond again to weights of approx. 80%. A complete Decondition is not necessary, since we begin with 912 anyway relatively heavily.
Q: But why only twelve days training? One could begin with less difficulty and lift through six weeks.
A: In order to really drive the energy usage into astronomical heights and therefore accelerate Dieting strongly, we must put on enormously high volume with 912HST with very high frequency. That leads on a long-term basis to burning out and over training symptoms. The short cycle permits us to train almost as much as desired. In only twelve days one does not burn out. The following SD permits complete regeneration and makes thus a further high-volume training period possible.
Q: May I add Cardio and/or interval training, in order to accelerate the thing still another little?
A: Naturally, everything is permitted. One considers however that Cardio and interval training in comparison to heavy weight training produces only a very small transformation of energy. The basis of the training must remain heavy training.
Q: No loading days? I thought, those would be so important, in order to hold the metabolism above.
A: Those also important, however 912HST has only a relatively short Diet phase. After the twelve days, the metabolism cannot drop so far that the dieting becomes ineffective. That is alone already prevented by training. The following SD is, as it were, a replacement for Refeeds, since during rest, one eats and the metabolism is once again set in motion.
Q: Which role does nutrition play? How am I to eat?
A: With the nutrition, attention is only actually to the calorie deficit. Whether one is now a follower of the Ketogenic Diet or trusts in good old low fat, does not make a difference. I recommend however to consume carbohydrates at least after training in order to fill up the glycogen stores at least partly again. That is more beneficial for the achievement in training than completely carbhohydrate nutrition. Naturally, attention must be moreover paid to protein, a high protein supply of approx. 2g. per kilogram body weight. But it does not necessary mean a bodybuilding diet.
Q: You said the body could get itself the protein for growth and regeneration from other material. What do you mean by it?
A: If the muscle is forced to grow with insufficient protein and energy input by an enormously strong growth signal (as with 912) to, then it can gain protein for skin, hair, fingernails, organs, bone, the immune system etc., necessary for it. The necessary energy comes naturally from the fatty tissue. In addition the body can use amino acids to a certain degree; (bears in hibernation completely use amino acids completely and lose no lean mass - unfortunately humans cannot do this). That means that the body can grow and regenerate at short notice independently of the nutrition. This is a further advantage of the short train/rest period of 912. On a long-term basis, thus over months and years, one naturally requires sufficient nutrition.
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
<div>
(colby2152 @ Jan. 02 2008,03:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Joe, I have had great results with high frequency, but I never tried a 912 cycle. I am experimenting with many different HST and SST variations while I am cutting and 912 is the next stop on the road to 10%!</div>
I wish you the best.
I will be good to see how it works out for you!
(colby2152 @ Jan. 02 2008,03:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Joe, I have had great results with high frequency, but I never tried a 912 cycle. I am experimenting with many different HST and SST variations while I am cutting and 912 is the next stop on the road to 10%!</div>
I wish you the best.
I will be good to see how it works out for you!
Out of respect for Colby I won't put in a lot of rant with my opinions on this, but let's just ask the big one not on the list:
How in Blazes do you stave off CATABOLISM working out every day in a caloric deficit? I've never heard of the body 'producing' aminos internally, as indicated.
Well, we'll watch our experimental student advocate and see what happens I guess. Good luck there C! I'd add in 3-5g Glutamine a day if it were me.
How in Blazes do you stave off CATABOLISM working out every day in a caloric deficit? I've never heard of the body 'producing' aminos internally, as indicated.
Well, we'll watch our experimental student advocate and see what happens I guess. Good luck there C! I'd add in 3-5g Glutamine a day if it were me.
<div>
(quadancer @ Jan. 02 2008,22:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Out of respect for Colby I won't put in a lot of rant with my opinions on this, but let's just ask the big one not on the list:
How in Blazes do you stave off CATABOLISM working out every day in a caloric deficit? I've never heard of the body 'producing' aminos internally, as indicated.
Well, we'll watch our experimental student advocate and see what happens I guess. Good luck there C! I'd add in 3-5g Glutamine a day if it were me.</div>
Quad, you would think you need 48 hours, but people have had much success on 12x/week frequency, so why wouldn't this work. The trick here is that is only 12 days. Nevertheless, I have always been a bit skeptic, and I am excited at this experiment!
(quadancer @ Jan. 02 2008,22:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Out of respect for Colby I won't put in a lot of rant with my opinions on this, but let's just ask the big one not on the list:
How in Blazes do you stave off CATABOLISM working out every day in a caloric deficit? I've never heard of the body 'producing' aminos internally, as indicated.
Well, we'll watch our experimental student advocate and see what happens I guess. Good luck there C! I'd add in 3-5g Glutamine a day if it were me.</div>
Quad, you would think you need 48 hours, but people have had much success on 12x/week frequency, so why wouldn't this work. The trick here is that is only 12 days. Nevertheless, I have always been a bit skeptic, and I am excited at this experiment!