5*5  vs HST

I've done that in a public gym and did get some funny looks. The funny looks were from the fact that I was squatting and deadlifting instead of doing machine workouts, not because of the weight I was using that day. I ended that workout with under 200 so it was still a very light one but still the people there thought I was some kind of power monster. The trainer offered to show me how to do leg extensions, and the manager brought me some mats and said, "we like powerlifters here but just don't have any". How a sub 200lb squat can be called powerlifting I don't understand.

About the redneck thing. Well I do live in far western North Carolina on a mountain. I grew up on a secluded 660 acre farm on three mountains. I teach my girls to grow their own food, kill their own food, and be able to survive if things don't go well in the world. They can shoot, fight, hunt, fish, and both love the big, jacked up 4x4 trucks. Rednecks? Probably.
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(vagrant @ Nov. 24 2006,11:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">They can shoot, fight, hunt, fish, and both love the big, jacked up 4x4 trucks. Rednecks? Probably.
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All that fun stuff that we city folks miss. Even those of us living in Texas, except when we get the occasional chance to get away. I read that and in my mind started hearing Hank Williams Jr. sing &quot;A Country Boy Can Survive&quot;.
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qadancer, the Madcow site is a great one. I may have missed something in vagrant's post, but it sounds like he's describing the &quot;Madcow intermediate&quot; or linear 5x5, but linked above to the &quot;advanced&quot; or periodized version.

With the intermediate you ramp up to one top set. After a few weeks of building up, you get to your current PRs, then week by week try to add 5-10 pounds to your top set, and continue setting PRs as long as you can. Once that stops, you reset weights back a few weeks and build up again.

With the advanced, you have some workouts ramped and some with 5x5 of the same weight. You do this for four weeks, building the weights up, and then try to set new PRs for both your top set of 5 and 5 sets of 5 with the same weight (on different days). Then you either deload with a couple of weeks of 3x3 or deload a week and try to start setting records doing 3x3 (higher weights, lower volume).

The easiest way to get a handle on them is to look at the spreadsheets, which are downloadable from the Madcow site.

I'm a couple of weeks into new PRs on the linear 5x5. You want to do that one if you can, 'cause linear progress is faster than a cycle where you build up, deload, repeat. When the linear program isn't working so well, you go to something more like the advanced, but I've seen journals of some pretty strong folks still gaining well on a linear version.

Vagrants ramps look a little flatter than the linear program, almost a little in between the two, which is certainly a viable option. Once you understand how it works, and how your body responds, you can tailor this kind of routine to suit you best. The best way to start is probably to read the site, look at the spreadsheets, start with the intermediate version and give things a try.
 
Getting ready to really study the variable options - and I think that's another good thing about the 5x5's...so many ways to find what works for you, but I will probably be in the intermediates. I started today with basically 3 sets of 10 for seven exersizes; about 80 minutes worth. I'll stick that for a week or two to get ready for the fives, thinking that if I'm used to 30 reps total, dropping to 25 won't be hard.

I'm allready liking not doing 13 exersizes! Like a vacation! Wheeeee!
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@quaddancer
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The best way to start is probably to read the site, look at the spreadsheets, start with the intermediate version and give things a try. </div>
He is right !!! start with the intermediate ! So many people with great results. Im in week 6 and setting new personal records. and i can say will do next week too
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The intermediate is great for every lifter.
best regards.
maybe you do a log here !
 
Choco, how many exersizes are you using? I would have a really hard time just doing THREE exersizes for a workout, regardless of the sets. I'm so used to being in my gym for well over an hour. It will be hard enough switching an exersize on wed. (like using dead instead of squats) rather than just doing both.
 
I've added the spreadsheet that I use to calculate my lifts as an attachment.  What I'm doing is somewhere between the intermediate and advanced routine I guess...I hadn't thought about it that way.  I just read the madcow article, bummed a copy of starting strength for some reference, sadly I had to return that one.  Then used the spreadsheet to figure each set for each lift for the next 8-12 weeks.

As the weight goes up, so does the rest time.  No longer is the time needed to toss a couple more plates on the bar enough for STR time betwen squat sets or deadlifts.

My workouts right now look like this each week:

Workout 1:  Squat, Dead, Bench, Row, OHP, Pullup, Cable Crunch.
Workout 2:  Squat, Bench, Row, OHP, P/U, Cable Crunch.
Workout 3:  Squat, Bench, Row, OHP, P/U, Cable Crunch.

I'm increasing the weight on deadlift every workout instead of staggering the progression since I'm only doing it once a week.  Everything else is right from the spreadsheet.

Notice something about the first workout and last workout of HST and 5x5...they use the same weight for the last set...both make you bigger and stronger at about the same rate.
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I'm thinking about my next training cycle already.  I may change it to something like this:

Workout 1:  Squat, Bench, Row
Workout 2:  Squat, OHP, Chin
Workout 3:  Squat, Dead, Crunch

This is more like a &quot;real&quot; 5x5 I think...but a pretty big departure from HST with the frequency and progression, so I don't know if I'll do it or not.

I have doubts simply because of what my first HST cycle did to me.  Nothing before, or since has given me results like that.  I mean sh*t 30lbs in 8 weeks?  That's hard to top...but it did take 4 hours a day in the gym to do it and made me think I was ready to croak over and die any minute by the end...right before I got hurt.

Note: About the girls, naah didn't care if I got boys or girls. I just don't want them ever being dependant on someone to take care of them. They've got to be able to feed themselves and protect themselves. Daddy won't always be there once they are grown. Besides, it's pretty cool to know that my 17 year old girl can take out most grown men in a standup fight. She's not a victim waiting to find a perpetrator. The 10 year old does pretty good too, but has only trained for 3 years.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well I do live in far western North Carolina on a mountain. I grew up on a secluded 660 acre farm on three mountains. I teach my girls to grow their own food, kill their own food, and be able to survive if things don't go well in the world. They can shoot, fight, hunt, fish, and both love the big, jacked up 4x4 trucks. Rednecks? Probably. </div>

Ideal...I have three boys and realy dream of having something like that too, would be great, just my 16 yera old is going through the &quot;rebellion stage&quot; and prefers town but with a gun in his hand and a whole lot of forest he'd change his mind
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Great 5 x 5, Lats time I tried the 5 x 5 intermediate and was quite happy, should do it again soon!
 
I'm still not totally familiar with the 5x5 yet, but your second schedule - once a week for delts, and chins don't even hit my lats; so it would seem to be better to do pullups there. I'd better adjust to some of these ideas soon, because my tens are near ending.
 
Quad, I put chins.  I should have put pullups.  I've just gotten in the bad habit of calling them chins because everyone I'm around calls them that.  I do palms forward pullups, pulling my chest to the bar.  I only use a medium grip though, not going for the really wide grip.  I've found that with wide, I can't move much weight and my lats simply don't grow without the heavy weights.

Now that my rows are having to be so light and I can't do a true dynamic row, JS row, or Pendalay row anymore, my pullups are my only &quot;real&quot; lat exercise.  I'm stuck doing BOR to the bottom of my abdomen with my torso up to 45 degrees, low back arched, and knees bent.  Sucks, I used to love doing 185-200 from the floor into a row to the bellybutton.  And I'm only doing like 160 or so too.  For pullups, I'm getting body weight+50...shooting for 60.

If I can get my head out of my ass and back in the gym, I'll probably hit the 60 in a couple of weeks too.

And the 2nd schedule, I don't know how it will work either. Most of the Powerlifters I know think it's a good idea. But I'm not convinced because I'm pretty sold on the principals of HST. I love the progression, the heavier weights every workout, the built in &quot;deloads&quot; that go with it. That's why I want to give 5x5 a fair shake, because they seem so similar. The Plan B...I don't know about not doing some of the lifts every workout. I've kind of gotten used to it. But during winter I'm simply too busy to put the time in the gym that's needed for a true full body workout.
 
I guess Choco gave up on us! I'm seeing people doing from 3 to 7 exersizes for the 5x5. I'm looking at five myself, with 3 alternates for alternate days.

How many are you guys doing? I just can't see how 3 can hit the whole body. No way.
 
Olympic squats, bench press and pendlay rows--definitely a full body workout. You can get a full body workout with only two - clean &amp; push press and dips.
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(liegelord @ Dec. 21 2006,21:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Olympic squats, bench press and pendlay rows--definitely a full body workout.  You can get a full body workout with only two - clean &amp; push press and dips.
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That covers it.

If a program has sqaut, bench, dead, row - it can't go wrong. No need to gum it up with too much and rob energy away needed for the big stuff. I still can't get away from doing lots of stuff myself though. But I am down from 14 to 7...and the deadlift is only once a week for now.
 
Okay, I see basically what you're saying: but there has to be some serious lag if compared to a slightly larger program, as Vagrant is doing. Or maybe it's just the ol' phyche messing with me! For example, it's hard to let go of at least partial or intermittent arm training. My guns are my best pride.

Anyway, I'm looking at setting things up with the same exersizes I'm doing for the tens I'm in - using the same program for the 5x5. I haven't decided yet wether to continue this cut or bulk again. I'm on the fence there.

Mon&gt;
Squats
Pullups
Incline d/b press
Shrugs
Biceps

Wed&gt;
Deads
T-bar Rows
Dips
Shrugs
Triceps

Friday&gt;
Repeat Mon.

Sunday&gt;
Repeat Wed. , etc. etc.

I was going to do seven exersizes, but I'm thinking that the whole concept of the madcow system is to really blast it in just a few, and five seems to be a reasonable minimum to me, a shorter workout, and more motivation not to miss any. Right now I'm slammed with DOMS from a really good workout of tens, and skipped a day to recover a bit. I've been doing about 7 or 8 exersizes for the tens, and feel like I'm about ready to go for the 5x5 now. 5 exersizes should feel like taking a walk!
 
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(quadancer @ Dec. 22 2006,08:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">5 exersizes should feel like taking a walk!</div>
It will. For a week, maybe two. Then for some reason it suddenly gets heavy and you are wishing for the light work of the 15's or even the 10's again.

I think more mature or &quot;experienced&quot; muscle is going to respond better to the change in program than &quot;new&quot; muscle thats only been trained for a little while would. Where the new trainee is going to respond to whatever they do.

That's why I'm thinking I'll do about 2 cycles of HST mixed with 2 cycles of 5x5. Just on my first 5x5 now though. I think the built in periodization is why I like both programs so well.
 
I feel like HST is my home base now. I may take forays into other similar systems for the change, but will probably always return to this.
 
I feel like HST is my home base now. I may take forays into other similar systems for the change, but will probably always return to this.

OOPTH!!!
 
hey quadancer sorry im not often here because i have not so much time like i had a few months before
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but i would do the Linear Version for Intermediate Lifters !
Read this linK: KLICK

Monday:
Squat
Bench
Barbell Row
Hypers
Sit-ups

Wednesday:
Squat
Militarry
Deadlift
Sit-ups
(maybe you can add Chinups here !!)

Friday:
Squat
Bench
Barbell Row
Dips
Barbell Curls
Scullcrushers

Man thats the original program and thats what im doing ! The exercises are enough ! dont do more ! when you are coming to the weeks in which you are making your new Personal Records, thats really enough !
I think when you do many more you cant really get much stronger ! It will **** you up ....

on the link i have posted you can download a sample template for excel, there you can write your 5rm down and you can print it.

If you want to see some logs for this linear programm, you can read a bit around at elitefitness, there are many logs !

So okay, what do you dont understand ? what do you want to change and why ?
greetz
choco
 
you must understand that the 5x5 is for gaining strength and that works like madcow describes at his page, so why change a very good programm ? bill star was/is (?) a great trainer and he knows what he is doing ! so do that and you will explode.

when strength is coming , musclemass is comig too ! and on the other side : when musclemass is coming, strength is coming too !

so when someone is saying that program is only for strength that is bullshit ! it all depends on your diet !
 
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