5*5  vs HST

Choco, the one you posted is very much like what mine is evolving into.  I started with more and it's getting less and less.

Mine is now a combination of madcow's version and the original Starr version.

Here is what it's became - with the arm work once a week - to make quaddancer happy.  Actually, it's to make me happy.

Workout 1:  Heavy day
Squat 5x5 ramped sets
Row 5x5 ramped sets
Bench 5x5 ramped sets
Cable Crunch (the original program called for abs 2x a week)

Workout 2:  Light Day (10lbs less than last workout)
Squat
Dead...always heavy day, progressive resistance each workout
Overhead press (instead of Starr/Pendlay's incline bench)
Pullup (just can't get away from these)
Cable Crunch

Workout 3:  (medium day, the same weight as last heavy day)
Squat
Dead
Bench
Curl (wide grip BB curls, maybe the extra biceps help with back work?)
Skull Crusher (love these, gotta do tris once a week on this one)

Squat, Dead, Bench, and Row are all done 5x5 with the H,L,M progression.  Accessory work is all done with progressive resistance 3 sets of 4-6 reps (like max ot).  My ab work is going to be done 3x8-10 reps.

Another interesting read about 5x5 http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/manrodt4.htm
I really believe that if I pick up some strength, make my 5RM go up to at least what my 3RM is now then I'll be stronger and able to get better results upon my return to HST.

Or perhaps it's just a throwback to old bodybuilding philosophy that says you've got to go heavy to grow that I can't get past. Either way, we'll see what HST does with some strength to back it up next time around.
 
Printing it out now.(madcow) Will be my toilet reader for the next couple days, although I was allready looking at it. Doing it from the 5rep max sounds brutal, so I see how it should be limited to a few exersizes.
Can't do hypers, will be using my new T-bar row, db presses instead of bench and regular deads as long as the back holds.

Vagrant, if you hadn't had the problems with eating and the other, I'd be looking at your way because it's simpler, but I may be doing the stock program once I get it straight in my head. I'm used to linear progression with my style of HST anyway, so it's just more sets.
 
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(choco @ Dec. 25 2006,21:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Another interesting read about 5x5 ]http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/manrodt4.htm</div>
nice link ! is this the original routine from bill star ??</div>
Pretty much yes, it's very similar to what he wrote about in, &quot;The Strongest Shall Survive&quot; which was about strength and power training for football. He was a big proponent of olympic lifts, as everyone into strength training was back then.

This is the basic outline used though, modified today with things like deadlifts and rows because the old olympic lifts used in those days have been forgotten by many of us.  Myself included, I don't even know how to do some of them.
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i'm still in the process of comparing the 2. so far i think the 5x5 works better for me. i didnt get big fast, but i increased strength dramatically.

depending on how this hst cycle goes i might switch to 5x5 forever. 2 weeks left and then measurements
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xarfox, don't forget to compare the two with a full and fair evaluation. With 5x5, you are getting 25 reps for each workout. If you are doing an HST training cycle with anything less, you won't get the same results. A 5x5 training cycle can only compare to a BIG HST cycle to be fair. I like them both and think they both have a place in a balanced training plan. 5x5 for strength, HST for pure size. It all depends on your goals really, and how you want to get there. Best wishes to you in all your training endeavors.
 
How important do you all feel benching is in the 5x5? I don't think bench is that necessary for overall strength... I'm starting out a 5x5 cycle right now that focuses on squats, bentover rows and then clean and press on Mons and Fris, benching only on Weds when I deadlift.
 
It makes sense to me to foray into strength oriented training (SOT?) as an alternate with HST, when gains slow down to nada. Then back to HST for the joint recovery and mass building again. Ought to work, anyway.
 
My chest is small and weak so for me benching is a mandatory.

About alternating 5x5 for strenght with HST for size and recovery, the idea seems solid. I don't know how it will turn out, but I'm going to see.
 
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(vagrant @ Dec. 26 2006,17:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My chest is small and weak so for me benching is a mandatory.  

About alternating 5x5 for strenght with HST for size and recovery, the idea seems solid.  I don't know how it will turn out, but I'm going to see.</div>
Here is an appropiate5x5 article by me!
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My personal opinion is that strength and size are too closely related to separate them completely. The one exception would be someone who is lifting for pure neural strength while restricting calories, like a competitive lifter who wants more strength but not any hypertrophy. Of course by limiting hypertrophy, the gains in strength will be very low, and this strategy is only for elite lifters who need to stay in their weight-class.

Example...bodybuilders with very big thighs also have very strong thighs...i.e. probably can squat ALOT. I think Jay Cutler squats over 600 lb.s. for reps.
On the other hand strength competitors with super-strong thighs also have super-big thighs. The 2006 World's Strongest Man was recently televised, there wasn't one guy competing who didn't have a thick body and legs like tree-trunks.
 
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(Totentanz @ Dec. 26 2006,17:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How important do you all feel benching is in the 5x5?  I don't think bench is that necessary for overall strength...  I'm starting out a 5x5 cycle right now that focuses on squats, bentover rows and then clean and press on Mons and Fris, benching only on Weds when I deadlift.</div>
I don´t think benching is all that important anymore unless your are bodybuilding for competition or playing Football. I did flat benches, to my detriment I might add, for my 5 x 5 cycles and in hindsight I should have at least switched every workout out to inclines. I had to stop benching because my shoulders were hurting and my shoulders weren´t gaining any strength. for my 10 x 3 cycle I dropped all benching and just do standing Mil presses and dips. My shoulders are finally starting to show some strength gains and they no longer hurt.

I gather you already have a nice build/good strength so if you drop benches from your 5 x 5 you´ll be fine. Just sub in Mil. Presses. It is actually very liberating not having to do benches anymore and those guys/girls who only do Flat/decline/incline presses EVERY workout look even funnier.
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(Totentanz @ Dec. 26 2006,17:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How important do you all feel benching is in the 5x5?  I don't think bench is that necessary for overall strength...  I'm starting out a 5x5 cycle right now that focuses on squats, bentover rows and then clean and press on Mons and Fris, benching only on Weds when I deadlift.</div>
I just thought about this some more and I think the Benching IS important if you are doing olympic style weight lifting. I think it is important for balancing out and supporting the shoulder girdle and upper back when you are doing movements like the Clean and jerk and any other movement where a heavy weight is basicllay thrown above the head.

For me, benching is unimportant because it is stronger than I can ever imagine needing to be and I ain´t clean and jerking (usually it is the otherway around, harharhar)
 
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(scientific muscle @ Dec. 26 2006,21:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> The one exception would be someone who is lifting for pure neural strength while restricting calories, like a competitive lifter who wants more strength but not any hypertrophy.  </div>
Or the triathlete who wants to be stronger but not carrying around any extra mass.  

I was deadlifting 325 when I did my tri in May at 170lbs and squatting 250.  More than I can handle now.  Yeah, I know that's not much, but for me it's pretty big.

I actually needed the nerual adaptation because of the MS induced weakness.  My CNS is all screwed up.  I'd probably still be training that way to get more neural adaptation but learned the hard way that big lifts with a body that doesn't have the mass to support them leads to injury, especially when the CNS decides to throw a curve and suddenly tell one leg that it only has 1/2 of it's normal strength...big suprise when it happens mid-lift.

BTW, good article. Direct, to the point, and accurate.
 
as I start to train for the bike season, I will by racking up about 10 hours a week on the roller and will be on a strict caloric regime of about 2800 calories a day. I will drop 10 kilos bodyweight and stick to a 3x a week workout at about 70% my 1rm maxes for squat, deads, mil press and rows. these will be 5 x 5. I will do pull ups and dips with body weight. I just finished a 4 week 10 x 3 and gained 3 kilos. This year is a special bike year because I have a 7 day race over the alps in July and I want to be around 88 kilos by July 1.
I am at 96 kilos as I sit on the crapper typing this email.

i guess I am talking about 8 months strength maintanance, as I way stronger than I need to be for biking and 7 months weight loss as i am a little too heavy for the race.
 
I want to give the 5 x 5 program a go, but my training schedule is such that I can only train on Mon, Tues and Thur.

How would you fit the schedule into this period? I'm thinking stick to Mon progam and do Friday's on Thursay. Maybe throw is some additional exercises performed on Tues i.e. High pulls, Military Press, Pull-ups some arm work. Any suggestions are welcome.
 
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(drpierredebs @ Dec. 26 2006,23:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Totentanz @ Dec. 26 2006,17:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How important do you all feel benching is in the 5x5? I don't think bench is that necessary for overall strength... I'm starting out a 5x5 cycle right now that focuses on squats, bentover rows and then clean and press on Mons and Fris, benching only on Weds when I deadlift.</div>
I just thought about this some more and I think the Benching IS important if you are doing olympic style weight lifting. I think it is important for balancing out and supporting the shoulder girdle and upper back when you are doing movements like the Clean and jerk and any other movement where a heavy weight is basicllay thrown above the head.

For me, benching is unimportant because it is stronger than I can ever imagine needing to be and I ain´t clean and jerking (usually it is the otherway around, harharhar)</div>
You're probably right. My bench is fairly weak. I can barely incline bench over my bodyweight. But... I think once a week benching might be enough for now, and only once 5x5 cycle shouldn't do any (or much) damage.

Well... for this cycle, I'm going to just go ahead and experiment a bit. I'll do Squats, Clean and Press, Rows on Monday, along with 2x8 weighted hypers and situps. On Weds, I'll do light squats, then deads and incline bench. Only 4 sets of each on Weds, along with 2x8 dips and chins. Then on Fri I'll do the same exercises as on monday. It'll basically be the intermediate version, except only 3 sets ramping up the weight instead of 4 and 2 top sets each workout (except Weds squats, obviously...)

My goals... higher squat, higher row, higher clean and press. Heh. My 5 RM for bentover rows is 255, so I'd like to see at least 275.
 
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(vagrant @ Dec. 26 2006,13:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">xarfox, don't forget to compare the two with a full and fair evaluation.  With 5x5, you are getting 25 reps for each workout.  If you are doing an HST training cycle with anything less, you won't get the same results.  A 5x5 training cycle can only compare to a BIG HST cycle to be fair.  I like them both and think they both have a place in a balanced training plan.  5x5 for strength, HST for pure size.  It all depends on your goals really, and how you want to get there.  Best wishes to you in all your training endeavors.</div>
interesting point vagrant


the confusing part is that 5x5 uses ramped sets whereas hst uses static sets

i.e. 5x5 squat: 100,120,140,160,180
HST (during 5s) squat: 180, 180

also some might do 3 sets during the 5s, some might do &quot;1 working set&quot;, and everyone seems to have a different theory on &quot;warming up&quot;

my question is - how can you compare static sets to ramped sets? if you wanted to keep the same amt of reps with hst you would have to do 180,180,180,180,180 which would probably leave you dead

and if you did &quot;warm up&quot; sets then you are basically doing ramped sets which is basically still 5x5?


HST seems to pride itself on doing less but getting more size. so doing a &quot;Big HST&quot; cycle to keep up with the volume of a 5x5 seems paradoxical

does this make sense?
 
I'm getting ready to walk into my gym and do my first 5x5...spent my night and lunch hour re-reading the intermediate sheets...
Now that it's clear to me, I see the difference and need for warmup ramping. The 5x5 is more for strength, the workload total is more, but you get lighter weights ramping so that you CAN get your maxes....with HST, you do less sets, therefore have more overall energy over fatigue to stay with the total max weight of the day.

If you read it through, he mentions several times that you're probably not going to stay on the 5x5 cycle for very long- it's a short program because of the nature of it's brutality. Interestingly enough though, the final output of strength increases are near the same for HST, but as I'd mentioned a few posts back, it SEEMS (no experience yet) to me that either one will plateau gains and alternating with the other program should &quot;reset&quot; you.
Reading this thread again has me all pumped up and I'm now ready to go hit it and kick my @ss...oh, I forgot...submax weights...oh well, seeya.
 
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(drpierredebs @ Dec. 27 2006,00:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am at 96 kilos as I sit on the crapper typing this email.</div>
...before you sat down...
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