Ah Ha, Think I Caught On To Something....

[NWlifter]

The work done is the same for 1x10 vs 10x1, at the same load.

And I’m sure fatigue is induced, but you’re using the word to describe a LOT of different things. The most common use I’ve seen is to describe the effect on neural system.

Rather than using it interchangeably to deccibr metabolic stress within muscle cells, i.e. that a set of true 10-15RM might induce, or forty reps in a sessions etc.

My point that initiated the recent back-and-forth within this thread was that your “results” from training to a neurally-fatigued state, could have been achieved without taking it to that state.

Similar to what Blade said a i e; no point going to failure re: hypertrophy, unless it’s a one-set session.

If you train to improve ‘fatigue endurance, that’s fine. But you’re likely bettter off training towards hypertrophy.

Putting it another way;

Look at today’s crop of raw, tested powerlifters. They’re getting pretty damn jacked for their weight class - with exceptions to every rule of course.

And they aren’t doing it by ‘fatigue’ training, by and large. They’re doing heavy sets for a necessary amount of volume.

If anything, I’d say fatigue limits hypertrophy by reducing the work you can accomplish within a training period; session, week, block etc. Training up to fatigue, or not even quite there, i.e. RPE 8 or 9 vs RPE 9+, will get you a lot bigger, a lot faster.

Tension obviously isn’t the whole picture, but accumulating more volume =/= fatigue. And fatigue =/= hypertrophy. Otherwise bro splits would be king.

I'm not using fatigue to describe many things, that is what fatigue 'is'. Fatigue is any accumulative effects that lower function or performance. The specific reasons for that fatigue can be different and different combinations of various things. Example, force loss with very heavy loads and low reps is partially due to the Pcr supply running low. a loss of 'fuel' is a form of fatigue.
The only reason our muscles even recruit more fibers and increase rate coding during a set is due to fatigue.
The only reason you can't do your 1Rm more than once is due to fatigue

Usually I see people using fatigue to decribe metabolic issues rather than neural though, and I really wasn't point to failure as the key. Just that 'fatigue' in general is what moves a muscle to a point where the lacking performance signals a need for adaptations. It's that way in all systems, a callus is formed from mechanical fatigue damaging skin cells and stimulating it, etc.

Fatigue is a general 'thing' : Muscle fatigue is a decreased capacity to perform a physical action. Fatigue causes a decline in performance and a decrease in your ability to exert force.

 

[NWlifter]

Wiki actually has a pretty good page on this, it's very similar to the info. in Enoka's Neuromechanics text book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_fatigue (highlights below)

Fatigue (reduced ability to generate force) may occur due to the nerve, or within the muscle cells themselves.
But in extremely powerful contractions that are close to the upper limit of a muscle's ability to generate force, nervous fatigue (enervation), in which the nerve signal weakens, can be a limiting factor in untrained individuals.

Though not universally used, ‘metabolic fatigue’ is a common term for the reduction in contractile force due to the direct or indirect effects of two main factors:

1. 
   
   
   • Shortage of fuel (substrates) within the muscle fiber
   • Accumulation of substances (metabolites) within the muscle fiber, which interfere either with the release of calcium (Ca2+) or with the ability of calcium to stimulate muscle contraction.

this study is interesting https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1113/jphysiol.1990.sp018059

1. 
   

 

[Jester]

Noted but still disagree with using the word so generally.

Putting that aside, I come back to my point that started this whole side-trip; you almost certainly would have gotten the same gains from doing sets to RPE 8-9, rather than above 9.

Arguably, your recovery requirements would be less and would have facilitated better results in the same time period (i.e. more training in a given week, less time until the next session, better recovered for the next session etc.).

The most relevant use of neural fatigue IMO is doing myo-reps; full fiber engagement at vastly sub-max loads, especially in time-restricted circumstances.

That’s why the most successful natural lifters aren’t going to failure consistently. It’s counter productive.


EDIT: two further thoughts;

1. Generally speaking a powelifter isn’t missing a lift for metabolic stress reasons. It’s either neural fatigue, positioning/technique, or just not bejng strong enough.

2. The reason I don’t think fatigue induced useful adaptations when used frequently is large muscles and endurance performance tend not to correlate beyond novice levels. i.e. the body is asking itself why growing will help it doing 15RMs ... compared to glycogen storage and a host of other things.

 

[NWlifter]

Noted but still disagree with using the word so generally.

Even though that is the definition? OK

Putting that aside, I come back to my point that started this whole side-trip; you almost certainly would have gotten the same gains from doing sets to RPE 8-9, rather than above 9.

I never did go above 9, maybe 8 even...not sure why or how failure or high RPE got into the mix?

The most relevant use of neural fatigue IMO is doing myo-reps; full fiber engagement at vastly sub-max loads, especially in time-restricted circumstances.

That’s why the most successful natural lifters aren’t going to failure consistently. It’s counter productive.

Neural I'm sure isn't a factor
And agree, sub failure is way better, and why I train sub-failure about 99.9% of the time

EDIT: two further thoughts;

1. Generally speaking a powelifter isn’t missing a lift for metabolic stress reasons. It’s either neural fatigue, positioning/technique, or just not bejng strong enough.

1Rm agree.
above that, it's fatigue from previous reps. If you can lift 350 once, then twice, then not 3, it's fatigue from previous reps. And mostly from a lack in the Pcr energy systems.

2. The reason I don’t think fatigue induced useful adaptations when used frequently is large muscles and endurance performance tend not to correlate beyond novice levels. i.e. the body is asking itself why growing will help it doing 15RMs ... compared to glycogen storage and a host of other things.

well, we know that hypertrophy is stimulated equally with various loads
All repeated efforts (reps and sets) are a summation of fatigue
the summation of what leads to fatigue is the stimulus, again, that's why a single rep wih a heavy load isn't much of a stimulus, it takes repeated successive work to accumulate mechanical and metabolic fatigue factors, hypertrophy is most likely based on adding more fibrils to share the work load and keep muscle performance up if that work is repeated as a survival mechanism. Fatigue compromises survival in the wild.

You need to get this...

https://www.amazon.com/Neuromechani...29272776&sr=8-1&keywords=enoka+neuromechanics

 

[NWlifter]

OK, here ya go...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2375565/

General meaning of muscle fatigue
most investigators invoke a more focused definition of muscle fatigue as an exercise-induced reduction in the ability of muscle to produce force or power whether or not the task can be sustained (Bigland-Ritchie & Woods, 1984; Søgaard et al. 2006).

It is known that fatigue can be caused by many different mechanisms, ranging from the accumulation of metabolites within muscle fibres to the generation of an inadequate motor command in the motor cortex, and that there is no global mechanism responsible for muscle fatigue. Rather, the mechanisms that cause fatigue are specific to the task being performed.

Rather, muscle fatigue is a decrease in the maximal force or power that the involved muscles can produce, and it develops gradually soon after the onset of the sustained physical activity.

Why does fatigue occur? The simple answer is that one or several of the physiological processes that enable the contractile proteins to generate a force become impaired.

A decrease in voluntary activation, as can occur during long-lasting contractions, can contribute to the development of fatigue. (note long, not intermittent, matches Enoka's information I had posted)

 

[Jester]

Re: your own training - you stated you trained to achieve/reach fatigue, and achieved great results (paraphrased). I perceived this as RPE 9.5-10, as anything less than that wouldn’t really qualify as being fatigued to most of the lifters I deal with/observe. Hence recommendation to dial back. But apparently you were never there in first instance.

Misunderstanding then.


Re: Enoka - have read it. Good read, I don’t treat it as gospel , and certainly not for use of words.

Re: pcr energy system and 1RMs - not so sure I agree. Attempts are often 10-20minutes apart. I’m a bit rusty, but that (from memory), strikes me as well past the refractory timeframe.

Re: fatigue - break the cause of the state down. Why are you ‘fatigued’? Because it likely isn’t systemic; one component gave our before the others. And if it’s actually your muscles, then I would refer to that as metabolic stress. But regardless, I don’t think either of us is likely to change our use of nomenclature.

 

[NWlifter]

Re: your own training - you stated you trained to achieve/reach fatigue, and achieved great results (paraphrased). I perceived this as RPE 9.5-10, as anything less than that wouldn’t really qualify as being fatigued to most of the lifters I deal with/observe. Hence recommendation to dial back. But apparently you were never there in first instance.

Misunderstanding then.

Yes, it's because with the 3x8 and short rests, knowing the strength deficit by the end of the last set with a light weight, fatigue was obviously high even though I was at least 2 reps short of failure.
Gotta take fatigue for what it means

Re: Enoka - have read it. Good read, I don’t treat it as gospel , and certainly not for use of words.

No, not gospel, but he has a lot of references for the information, neural fatigue along with even looking up studies on it can show a lot of specifics.

Re: pcr energy system and 1RMs - not so sure I agree. Attempts are often 10-20minutes apart. I’m a bit rusty, but that (from memory), strikes me as well past the refractory timeframe.

It's also way past the refractory for neural too if your speaking about 1RM, 20 minutes later, 1Rm again.Unless it's purely related to motivation...in which case supraspinal input will be lower. I'm thinking more mechanical issues, or E-C systems... I'm sure the neural is well recovered in 20 minutes , after one quick 1Rm...

Re: fatigue - break the cause of the state down. Why are you ‘fatigued’? Because it likely isn’t systemic; one component gave our before the others. And if it’s actually your muscles, then I would refer to that as metabolic stress. But regardless, I don’t think either of us is likely to change our use of nomenclature.

that sentence kinda makes me go 'huh'?
Most studies would say (and physiology references) that short intermittent contractions induce fatigue more in the motor than the drive. But nonetheless, we do more than a single rep for one reason, repeated contractions cause a summation effect, since that effect increases with volume/reps, it's obvious that fatigue either directly or follows the summation of stimulation.

And remember, if it wasn't for fatigue, the only way to recruit the highest order MU's would be a 1RM, but thankfully, fatigue increases MU recruitment and activation, so we can achieve this with a huge variation in actual load.

Incidentally, this old study did exactly what we were talking about earlier.

Abstract
To investigate the role of fatigue in strength training, strength increases produced by a training protocol in which subjects rested between contractions were compared with those produced when subjects did not rest. Forty-two healthy subjects were randomly allocated to either a no-rest group, a rest group, or a control group. Subjects in the two training groups trained their elbow flexor muscles by lifting a 6RM weight 6-10 times on 3 d each week for 6 wk. Subjects in the no-rest group performed repeated lifts without resting, whereas subjects in the rest group rested for 30 s between lifts. Both training groups performed the same number of lifts at the same relative intensity. The control group did not train. Subjects who trained without rests experienced significantly greater mean increases in dynamic strength (56.3% +/- 6.8% (SD)) than subjects who trained with rests (41.2% +/- 6.6%), and both training groups experienced significantly greater mean increases in dynamic strength than the control group (19.7% +/- 6.6%). It was concluded that greater short-term strength increases are achieved when subjects are required to lift training weights without resting. These findings suggest that processes associated with fatigue contribute to the strength training stimulus.

Fatigue contributes to the strength training stimulus. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...contributes_to_the_strength_training_stimulus [accessed Jun 17 2018].

 

[NWlifter]

Re: Enoka - have read it.

Hey , grab your copy, 374 in my copy starts muscle fatigue but for sure read 382-385 (it's all referenced). (high force, diminishing crossbridge force)

 

[adpowah]

I don't have anything to add but this thread is really nice, its like the HST site from when I first joined, even Rihad is back!

 

[Blade]

I also tend to think there is a fatigue component in hypertrophy, as Bryan also stated - you can do singles close to 1RM but even with several sets not really achieve any significant muscle growth - although mechanical stress is huge.

At loads above approx 80% of 1RM we have pretty much maximal fiber recruitment from the very first rep, and it seems as if you can "get away with" not going to failure as much as with loads lighter than this. So I pretty much tend to use Myo-reps all the way up to the end of the 10s, then start off 5s with some drop-sets to prolong the metabolic stimulus for a while longer - and finally do only pure sets of 5 reps with 2-4min rest between sets. I might even do some cluster reps here and there at the end of the 5s to reduce metabolic stress even further.

Lately, I have considered pulling back on loading into 5s and just finish off the cycle around the 6-8RM point - stretching out the cycle to the 10-12 week point by repeating workouts at the same load (I already use the A/B setup which also accomplishes this) as discussed earlier.

As for Myo-reps being fatiguing, I am not really sure they are compared to doing 3 regular sets close to failure - there are studies showing higher MU recruitment but the same or even less neural fatigue. This probably depends on the individual, since the metabolic component (which I think is the main benefit) can also make it more exhausting from a Central Governor perspective. I just prefer being in and out of the gym in 30mins including warm-ups, vs 60min+ when doing regular sets - and I have reason to believe a single rest-pause/Myo-reps is more effective than even the 3 sets I have stipulated before. It’s about maximizing the stimulus, not necessarily the amount of work done IMHO.

 

[NWlifter]

Good info. Borge

 

[adpowah]

I just prefer being in and out of the gym in 30mins including warm-ups, vs 60min+ ...

Is this for reals or hyperbole? I find to get a full body workout in is more like 2 hours in a standard normal gym (3 sometimes). Warm ups, weight loading, sometimes waiting for equipment. Getting in and out in 30 minutes I might get one big compound done, two if I cluster. What am I missing here?

 

[_Simon_]

I also tend to think there is a fatigue component in hypertrophy, as Bryan also stated - you can do singles close to 1RM but even with several sets not really achieve any significant muscle growth - although mechanical stress is huge.

At loads above approx 80% of 1RM we have pretty much maximal fiber recruitment from the very first rep, and it seems as if you can "get away with" not going to failure as much as with loads lighter than this. So I pretty much tend to use Myo-reps all the way up to the end of the 10s, then start off 5s with some drop-sets to prolong the metabolic stimulus for a while longer - and finally do only pure sets of 5 reps with 2-4min rest between sets. I might even do some cluster reps here and there at the end of the 5s to reduce metabolic stress even further.

Lately, I have considered pulling back on loading into 5s and just finish off the cycle around the 6-8RM point - stretching out the cycle to the 10-12 week point by repeating workouts at the same load (I already use the A/B setup which also accomplishes this) as discussed earlier.

As for Myo-reps being fatiguing, I am not really sure they are compared to doing 3 regular sets close to failure - there are studies showing higher MU recruitment but the same or even less neural fatigue. This probably depends on the individual, since the metabolic component (which I think is the main benefit) can also make it more exhausting from a Central Governor perspective. I just prefer being in and out of the gym in 30mins including warm-ups, vs 60min+ when doing regular sets - and I have reason to believe a single rest-pause/Myo-reps is more effective than even the 3 sets I have stipulated before. It’s about maximizing the stimulus, not necessarily the amount of work done IMHO.

Will take that on board for sure, I like that you extend metabolic stress into the early 5s, so it's not that dramatic a drop into lower reps.

Ah ok, yeah in regards to fatigue I guess I was more relating it to say three submax sets, in which none are necessarily to failure, compared with myoreps sets. Again I'll have to read your ebook as to how to implement it properly, I just have gotten a cold a few times to say maybe I need to look at what I'm doing/how I'm doing it hehe.

Is this for reals or hyperbole? I find to get a full body workout in is more like 2 hours in a standard normal gym (3 sometimes). Warm ups, weight loading, sometimes waiting for equipment. Getting in and out in 30 minutes I might get one big compound done, two if I cluster. What am I missing here?

Ah yeah can imagine it'd take awhile at a gym. Mine vary between 45mins and 1 and a half hours, but I train at home so I've gotten used to where everything is and my plate changing abilities are like a circus juggling act now! XD

Heavier training definitely takes a lot longer (more thorough warmups, longer rests)

 

[Jester]

Is this for reals or hyperbole? I find to get a full body workout in is more like 2 hours in a standard normal gym (3 sometimes). Warm ups, weight loading, sometimes waiting for equipment. Getting in and out in 30 minutes I might get one big compound done, two if I cluster. What am I missing here?

Lots of machines or cable equipment I think.

 

[Totentanz]

Is this for reals or hyperbole? I find to get a full body workout in is more like 2 hours in a standard normal gym (3 sometimes). Warm ups, weight loading, sometimes waiting for equipment. Getting in and out in 30 minutes I might get one big compound done, two if I cluster. What am I missing here?

Doing myo-reps, I'm generally only in the gym for 45 minutes. Usually there is only one "big" compound each day. I could see definitely see how it might go faster if you don't have to wait for equipment or rearrange the workout because certain pieces are unavailable half the time you are there.
Deadlift day can run a little longer since if I'm resting a full five minutes between sets but there are fewer lifts that day, so it usually still is wrapped in 45 minutes or so.

 

[Blade]

Is this for reals or hyperbole? I find to get a full body workout in is more like 2 hours in a standard normal gym (3 sometimes). Warm ups, weight loading, sometimes waiting for equipment. Getting in and out in 30 minutes I might get one big compound done, two if I cluster. What am I missing here?

I have 5-6 exercises - where 1 Myo-rep set is approx 1:30 in duration - so that’s 9 minutes total. I do 1-2 warm-up sets depending on the exercise, but pair up 2-3 so I’m getting my HR up at the same time. Not very hard to get in a full-body workout in 30mins, but yeah - as I get closer to my RMs I will take longer rest periods.

When I get into 5s and do regular sets I expect my workout duration to increase, obviously.

 

[Jester]

I have 5-6 exercises - where 1 Myo-rep set is approx 1:30 in duration - so that’s 9 minutes total. I do 1-2 warm-up sets depending on the exercise, but pair up 2-3 so I’m getting my HR up at the same time. Not very hard to get in a full-body workout in 30mins, but yeah - as I get closer to my RMs I will take longer rest periods.

When I get into 5s and do regular sets I expect my workout duration to increase, obviously.

Which exercises?

 

[Blade]

http://thinkmuscle.com/community/th...unplanned-increments.43461/page-2#post-258980

 

[Old and Grey]

I split my full body workouts into two sessions per day. Typically my sessions are each about 20 minutes. I have the luxury of a home gym and am retired so that makes it easy for me to do and cuts down on fatigue.

 

[_Simon_]

Just had a good read through this entire thread again from last year, some really solid info here!