Am I the only person who doesn't count bar weight ??
- Thread starter benben2356
- Start date
Is legality the only reason holding you back? I really thought it was a morale issue, oh well
Drugs (requiring prescription) aren't legal anywhere AFAIK, but it's much easier to get hold of some here safely, truth be told.
There's nothing "moral" about the choice, other than the quasi-integration into the decision that comes with legality issues.
Totentanz, you could move to Connecticut, drugs seem to be legal there
Congress took over the issue some time ago.
@Rihad - don't try and self-diagnose hypogonadism. You're a medical degree (and further education) short of being able to do that, and psychologically it's not helpful to undergo that style of endeavour. Average height, normal body hair (especially for someone living in Asia) ... seems pretty stock-standard to me.
O&G certainly isn't "natural" with T-supplementation, but who cares? I fully intend to do what he does if&when I'm in his spot. It's far healthier to be doing what he's doing that letting aging break you down. Obviously there's not a 'carte blanche' in that regard, but keeping your hormone levels up to prevent forced tiredness, depression, wasting, reduced energy levels etc. I know what I'd prefer.
There is another benefit also.
HRT could be considered similar to someone with diabetes taking insulin, someone who has to take thyroid hormones, etc. It's all semantics. For the purposes of bodybuilding, you can most likely consider someone who is in the natural range of testosterone levels to be effectively natural even if their testosterone is from an unnatural source. For sure keeping it at the higher end of natural confers benefits but it is nothing like what happens when you take supraphysiological levels of testosterone for extended periods, which causes permanent changes that give that person an edge over true naturals forever even after they discontinue usage.
Technically unnatural? Yes, but as I mentioned, so is taking insulin when you are diabetic, wearing glasses when you have poor eyesight, etc. For the purposes of bodybuilding? I think that is highly debatable.
Technically unnatural? Yes, but as I mentioned, so is taking insulin when you are diabetic, wearing glasses when you have poor eyesight, etc. For the purposes of bodybuilding? I think that is highly debatable.
Bulldog
Active Member
How old are you (I know you've mentioned it before but I don't recall)? You are obviously still growing so your T levels most likely are fine, but have you had blood tests done to see where your T levels are while you are still growing? Personally I think that it should be standard practice with what we know today to have every man's T levels tested when they are about 25 years old to see what their healthy natural levels were. That would make HRT much easier to manage when one gets older because that would give you a good target level to shoot for once commencing HRT.
Anyhow, if you are over 35 I would go get a blood test just to see where you are at. I started to feel horrible once I hit about 32 but didn't get tested until I hit 38 and found that I was in fact low....low as in having the T levels of a 70+ year old. I've been on HRT sense then (now 44) and feel 1,000,000 times better.
HST_Rihad
Active Member
Could you define "feel horrible"? In what aspects? Was it all hypertrophy related (i.e. not growing as much as you wanted to), or were they unrelated issues? Feeling tired? Libido issues? Impotence? Were you carrying any extra measurable fat all that time?
How would you relate "carry any extra measurable fat" with "feel horrible" ... ? Not that someone couldn't feel depressed from being fatter/have more fat than they want to be, but "feeling" the word is not used in that context.
HST_Rihad
Active Member
It's just that obese/noticeably fat people are linked to having lower T.
Just an example: http://www.healthcentral.com/obesity/c/276918/161690/obesity-testosterone-levels/
Just an example: http://www.healthcentral.com/obesity/c/276918/161690/obesity-testosterone-levels/
Correlation =//= causation
The waters in this pool are so murky you'd be better off closing your eyes than desperately looking for clarity.
Obesity, inflammation, metabolic syndrome, diabetes, appetite, eating habit, satiety, depression, thyroid, just about every hormone you can think of (including testosterone, of course) ...
... pegging 'too much body fat' to 'must be because I have lower testosterone', or the opposite causality chain of 'having too much fat means I produce less testosterone'; neither is never something you'll be able to rationally support.
There's a correlation, that's it.
No causation or direction.
The waters in this pool are so murky you'd be better off closing your eyes than desperately looking for clarity.
Obesity, inflammation, metabolic syndrome, diabetes, appetite, eating habit, satiety, depression, thyroid, just about every hormone you can think of (including testosterone, of course) ...
... pegging 'too much body fat' to 'must be because I have lower testosterone', or the opposite causality chain of 'having too much fat means I produce less testosterone'; neither is never something you'll be able to rationally support.
There's a correlation, that's it.
No causation or direction.
HST_Rihad
Active Member
Being fat may be the cause of low T, not the other way round. Likewise the cure of getting lean isn't to jack up extra T in your blood, but rather to lean out in order to normalize your natural T levels.
You're proving an example of what NOT to do, in terms of your reasoning.
You can't make that causative link, in either direction. There's a correlation between obesity and lower testosterone. That's it. Going any deeper is mere speculation. On one hand, this is great - plenty of research for people to do still. On the other, it's not great - because it leads to thinking like the post I've just quoted.
Re-read the quote you quoted; I'm not making a position for either causative function; I'm saying that there's too much verifiable information that is missing/unknown for you to take a guess in either direction (A causing B, or B causing A).
And relating this back to Bulldog: you can't draw any justifiable conclusions from his answer to your questions. There's far too much information missing for you to point a finger in a semi-accurate direction, let alone have any hope at establishing causality.
HST_Rihad
Active Member
Here are a couple of US government-approved studies (.gov):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16817831
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16914599
You see, if anything counted, this is what does. Real studies done on real people. Not subjective critical thinking that doesn't appear to be based on any solid ground. I would love this not to be the case maybe even more than you do. But there are odds it is the case...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16817831
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16914599
You see, if anything counted, this is what does. Real studies done on real people. Not subjective critical thinking that doesn't appear to be based on any solid ground. I would love this not to be the case maybe even more than you do. But there are odds it is the case...
I'm fine w/odds.
I'm saying your method is flawed.
You're making the mistake of thinking I'm discussing the merits and state of the science. I'm clearly not.
I'm discussing your methodology and pointing out that you should not equate correlation with causation. It's an inferior and frankly 'wrong' way to think and analyse facts. Not to mention, I suspect that in Bulldog's comment, you've been exposed to a minority of relevant facts (if that).
Just try not to leap to conclusions just because they suit your predetermined positions.
I'm saying your method is flawed.
You're making the mistake of thinking I'm discussing the merits and state of the science. I'm clearly not.
I'm discussing your methodology and pointing out that you should not equate correlation with causation. It's an inferior and frankly 'wrong' way to think and analyse facts. Not to mention, I suspect that in Bulldog's comment, you've been exposed to a minority of relevant facts (if that).
Just try not to leap to conclusions just because they suit your predetermined positions.
HST_Rihad
Active Member
Here's what I asked Bulldog.
Hope he will reply
Of course there can be tons of other reasons for lower testosterone levels. Being obese/fat is just what first came to my mind given very little info provided. Cheers
Hope he will reply
Of course there can be tons of other reasons for lower testosterone levels. Being obese/fat is just what first came to my mind given very little info provided. Cheers
I'm 33 and pretty sure my t levels are good but you never know. I do plan on getting regularly tested once I hit 35. Hrt is something I plan to jump on right away once it becomes necessary. Just have to find the right doctor who will go about things in the right way.
Bulldog
Active Member
Here is a short list of the things that come to mind:
Tired all the time, started needing naps when I never did in the past
horrible workout recovery
zero libido (my equipment worked fine, I just didn't have any desire to use it)
brain fog
kept getting fatter despite working out and watching my diet
very short tempered and "bitchy"
As mentioned by others, just because you have these issues does NOT mean that you have low T levels. But in my opinion if you have these issues and you ask your doctor to test your hormones he should do so. If not then you should find a new doctor. To be completely honest, had I not gone on HRT my marriage would have ended by now. I am a new person in many regards and it literally saved my marriage.
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