Comp-style training

Q

quadancer

New Member
Have you ever watched the way they do comp bench? It's FOUR movements. Lift off, pause, down, pause, press, pause, return. Most of us would have to strip off 40-50 lbs. to work that. I'm deeply impressed with our local gym owner who does it similar; a pause at the bottom before true pressing, and uses perfect form throughout...repping 350-425 like it's nothing, and he's a natty!

Considering the ignoble deadlift, and the results it gets...all starting from dead weight. And I've seen some training suggestions that refer to pauses (especially squats) at the eccentric point...and I'm thinking this: perhaps most of us are working out wrongly. By allowing spring in the movement, negating dead starts (even in a set) and cutting the TUT with continuous movement, we may be cheating ourselves out of some real power training that could rocket us into bigger PR's, if we would just cut down the weight and start using pauses to truly lift the weights. I'm sure this has all been discussed before somewhere, but here are my concerns:
The only drawbacks I can think of here are like what happened when I did squats this way: exacerbating an injury or weak point (my hips) into a danger zone...but hey, what is happening to that joint when you get all crap-heavy? Maybe it's better to hit it early with lighter weight and try to train it up.
A second drawback might be that you're emphasizing the eccentric portion of the ROM and not really doing much for the rest of the movement, the weights being lighter. Thoughts?
edit: oops, I meant concentric. I get those backwards a lot!
 
Quad, I'm not experienced in this area, but I read a suggestion about using a 4 second cadence (4 up, pause, then 4 down) with the muscle already flexed. This is a big difference from what I learned in High School football practice. This also significantly lowers the amount of weight one can lift.

If you aren't using perfect form, then isn't the amount of weight you are lifting basically negated?

Also, isn't hypertrophy related specificially to the amount of time that the muscle is under tension? Is my thinking flawed, or would the pauses raise the amount of time that the muscle is under tension?
 
i have to say i do this now and again for bench and find the pumps to be great(painful).

and ive just started doing this for dead lifts.stop at the top,down to the floor compose myself then back up.its slightly more difficult than normal.
 
Cody: <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you aren't using perfect form, then isn't the amount of weight you are lifting basically negated?</div> If you want to qualify the lift accurately. Otherwise, it's still BB'ing. Just sloppier. We all do it, or most do, trying to get bigger numbers. But some say the perfect comp style lifts will get you farther up.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Also, isn't hypertrophy related specificially to the amount of time that the muscle is under tension? Is my thinking flawed, or would the pauses raise the amount of time that the muscle is under tension? </div> Yup.
Icars: <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">and ive just started doing this for dead lifts.stop at the top,down to the floor compose myself then back up.its slightly more difficult than normal. </div>
I thought that WAS normal for a dead. That's why it's a 'dead' lift...the weight stops.
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Jul. 04 2007,14:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I thought that WAS normal for a dead. That's why it's a 'dead' lift...the weight stops.</div>
well when i do deads i stop for a split second(not bounce but almost)or sometimes i dont touch the floor at all,so stopping like that would be difficult lol.

so what i meant was that my pause is now longer at the bottom and top of the movement than it was b4.
 
I'm a firm believer that you should train for what you want to do. I'm sure they train that way because that is what is required in a powerlifting competition for a valid lift. To train bench press any other way as a powerlifter wouldn't make much sense to me.

But I don't know if training like that would give you better growth as a bodybuilder. To me it seems to fall into a similar area as the &quot;super slow reps&quot; and I'm pretty sure we have already discussed that they are bunk from a growth standpoint. But please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
No, the rep time is normal, but just add the pause at the bottom to kill off bounce and spring effect. I'm thinking it lends to strength more than hypertrophy after trying it today with bench. Less weight, same reps, but it's a lot harder. I don't worry about the pickup and return part; that really is a waste of time; for comps only.
 
Yeah....not sure what I was thinking on the super slow comment. Obviously powerlifters are exploding and pressing the weight as fast as they can when they lift it.

I don't pause at the bottom of a bench but I don't bounce either. I don't think either one would be helpful in reaching my goals.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">No, the rep time is normal, but just add the pause at the bottom to kill off bounce and spring effect. I'm thinking it lends to strength more than hypertrophy after trying it today with bench.</div>

It should lead to some extra hypertrophy as well. HST, like any weightlifting routine, advises people to go slow on the eccentric movements and explode on the concentric so that they avoid the abuse of momentum. That momentum takes away from the amount of force that is exerted or work that is done in the exercise. Going back to my power-factor training days, more work in turn will relate to more hypertrophy and strength.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It should lead to some extra hypertrophy as well.  HST, like any weightlifting routine, advises people to go slow on the eccentric movements and explode on the concentric so that they avoid the abuse of momentum.  That momentum takes away from the amount of force that is exerted or work that is done in the exercise.  Going back to my power-factor training days, more work in turn will relate to more hypertrophy and strength. </div>


Colby is on the right track.

To steal Lyles old example of calve training. Calves are considered problematic for most from a growth perspective. Then you go watch how people train calves, many people bounce the weight out of the end eccentric/start concentric portion of the lift and can do so because the achilles tendon is quite efficient in &quot;storing&quot; the kinetic energy from the eccentric. Then you get the athlete to pause at the bottom of the eccentric and you realise they can only move half the weight as the muscle is actually creating the force.

And then there is as Quad said difficulties in applying this e.g in squats. Too much load especially on the lower back in the &quot;hole&quot;. Maybe box squats is better/worse, can't say I know, never looked into it really.

Then is the whole stretch reflex issue. I might look over a few of Vicious' old posts but he seemed to believe that anniciating the myostatic reflex would increase strain, thus hypertrophy.

Maybe Dan can comment, in regards to optimal rate firing or coding
 
You brought up a good point in the box squats: the box is used for a reason: unloading the ...everything. And they're known, I believe, to do wonders for some. OTOH, I've seen videos of guys doing them and they don't even pause, just hit the box and go, which defeats the purpose I'd think. I also believe they're for training strength in a given part of the ROM, but it's similar to what we're talking about.
 
Something to take into consideration here is the strength needed to STOP the weight. When benching, if you lower the bar fast, it probably takes more energy to stop the weight and then change direction than to lower slowly. There would certainly be less stress on the shoulders and other joints if the bar is lowered slowly.
 
Very good point. So we have a decided concentric speed that will be fast enough to elicit some strain in stopping the weight, but not so much speed that the spring effect is pronounced or the joints overloaded?
Now that we have added weight by the cessation of momentum, a slight pause elicits a fresh start from a dead weight, and we have thereby increased the effort (work) of a lift without moving more weight, have spared the joints from injury, made it easier to keep form, and barely increased the TUT beyond a normal lift.

I dunno about you guys, but this sounds all good to me.
wow.gif
 
I want to be a sprinter. In order to run fast, I need big muscles. So, I will try to incorporate pauses in my stride. Touch down, pause, push, pause, lift foot, pause. Etc. I'll see how fast I can run like this. Who knows what records I'll break.

Just kidding. The point is, sprinters have large calves, hams, quads and glutes. Cyclists sprinters have even larger quads. There's a discussion here:

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....t=14064

I concluded that there was a link between power and size. Apparently, I conclude right.
 
The idea is not to go &quot;super slow&quot; but to pause and give enough time to negate the stretch shortening cycle in which muscle stores elastic energy. That missing elastic energy has to be replaced by the firing of new muscle fibers.

Then there's this study which used a bunch of plyometrics, the exact opposite methodology, and increased fiber strength and size.
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/100/3/771

I think both have their advantages. To a guy like me who just wants to look better naked, there's probably not much of a discernable difference.
 
<div>
(SweetDaddyPatty @ Jul. 12 2007,11:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The idea is not to go &quot;super slow&quot; but to pause and give enough time to negate the stretch shortening cycle in which muscle stores elastic energy. That missing elastic energy has to be replaced by the firing of new muscle fibers.</div>
This is actually going to be a bad thing sometimes. Deadlifting, for example. If you take fifty years to setup your grip on the bar, you will pull less than if you grip and rip, because of the lost elastic energy.
Or so I've read. I've never really experienced this myself.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
To a guy like me who just wants to look better naked, there's probably not much of a discernable difference.
</div>

Yeah.
 
So who's putting up the starting energy for that elastic? An elastic can't just release energy, it must store it first. The energy that it stores comes from my muscles. I thought of making a point that it took the same amount of energy but it doesn't. Even then, the amount of energy spent is not what stimulates growth. Then there's momentum. The same principle applies here. Before there's any momentum, there must be a force that pushes the weight. This force comes from my muscles. Even then again, that's not what stimulates growth.

We forget about the mechano-transduction nature of muscle cells. The transduction happens when the load is applied once, not continuously. For the load to have an effect again, it must be taken off then applied again. And so forth. In other words, it's the change in load that stimulates growth, not continuous load. Once the load is applied, holding on to the weight for longer than needed is basically a waste of time and effort. And energy. Energy you can use for more reps instead. Or faster reps instead. Or more weight instead.

If you want a clear example of another kind of mechano-transduction, think of a quartz crystal. It produces a burst of electricity. Not continuous current.

Then there's form. We worry about form because we want to load the muscle as much as possible. If form requires a slow rep, then going fast doesn't adhere to form requirement. But form is only a comparison to a model. Change the model and your form can be good again. If your model is slow reps, then good form is slow reps. If your model is fast reps, then fast reps is good form. Etc. Think of the specificity of training. It applies to form.
 
<div>
(Martin Levac @ Jul. 12 2007,13:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So who's putting up the starting energy for that elastic? An elastic can't just release energy, it must store it first. The energy that it stores comes from my muscles.</div>
it comes from gravity
 
<div>
(SweetDaddyPatty @ Jul. 14 2007,15:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Jul. 12 2007,13:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So who's putting up the starting energy for that elastic? An elastic can't just release energy, it must store it first. The energy that it stores comes from my muscles.</div>
it comes from gravity</div>
The starting energy for that elastic comes from gravity? OK, let's roll with that. An elastic has two ends. For energy to be stored and released, it must be applied on the elastic by two distinct and opposite forces, each on its own end. Gravity pulls down, what pulls up? My muscles. The energy that the elastic stores comes from my muscles. Without the force from my muscles, there's no elastic.

In fact, my muscles must apply exactly the same amount of force to pull the weight up that gravity applies on the weight to pull it down. And a bit more to move it upward. And a bit more still to stop it from touching the ground. And a bit more still to make it change direction. And so forth.

For example, for a weight that masses 50kg, I must apply a force of 50kg and more to lift it off the ground and move it upward to lockup with whatever muscles are used for the specific lift. If I apply less force than that, the weight will not lift. As I lift the weight up and down, I will have to vary the amount of force I apply according to its direction of motion and whether I make it change direction. Etc. The faster I move the weight up and down, the more force I need to apply.

I don't remember the exact equation but if I move the weight 2x as fast, I must apply 4x the force. On the other hand, if I move 2x the weight at the same speed, I must apply only 2x the force.

Like so:

50kg x 1xspeed = 50kg force
50kg x 2xspeed = 200kg force
100kg x 1xspeed = 100kg force
etc.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about the speed/force equation.
 
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