Deadlift frequency and Squat question

_Simon_

Active Member
I was just wondering, is doing Deadlifts three times a week to much? I've just read many times that you shouldn't perform heavy deadlifts frequently (light deads frequently would be okay i'm guessing, but i'm getting heavier now).

Also, i do not understand why people keep saying that for full body growth you have to add squats. Squats do not hit every major muscle group, simple. Sure they hit alot of muscles of course, but you can't rely on the whole "GH levels increase alot from doing squats", because that increase is very temporary and isn't significant enough to cause whole body growth. Isn't specificity (as in USING the muscle group to an extent) and progression what causes it to grow, not some exercise that stresses the CNS quite a bit?

this totally sounds a bit more like a rant haha, but thanks guys
 
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(_Simon_ @ Jun. 17 2008,9:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I was just wondering, is doing Deadlifts three times a week to much? I've just read many times that you shouldn't perform heavy deadlifts frequently (light deads frequently would be okay i'm guessing, but i'm getting heavier now).</div>
Deads get heavy after a bit. They take a toll on your lower back and big chunk out of your CNS. Most knowledgeable lifters limit deads to one a week.

Frankly, though, I've done deads three times per week for months at a time with good results. I don't think you really have a problem until you start getting up past twice your bodyweight.
 
It all depends on what level of intensity you are training at (ie. %age of 1RM). Deads are particularly brutal at around 90% of 1RM and above - that's around your 5RM. Any more than once a week and my lower back complains too much the rest of the time. That's just me though. You need to find out what works for you.
 
ah ok, yeah i'll see how it works out for me, i'll go with 3 times a week for now, but may lower it in the future.

any thoughts on the squat theory (which bryan says in the FAQ it isn't true anyway i'm pretty sure...)

thanks guys!
 
I have the same question. I do not understand why Rippetoe or Bill Starr 5x5 recommend SQ every day but DL only once per week. Why not increase DL volume a bit and decrease from SQ.
 
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(bobpit @ Jun. 20 2008,4:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have the same question. I do not understand why Rippetoe or Bill Starr 5x5 recommend SQ every day but DL only once per week. Why not increase DL volume a bit and decrease from SQ.</div>
Because you are going to be capable of deadlifting significantly more than you can squat... which means that it will be a bit more taxing on the body. Besides, with 5x5, you will be squatting light one day a week and only doing a maximal effort type of squat once a week.
 
Basically what Tot and Lol said, but just to add a bit to it.

Full-range low-bar back squats are only done every workout during your novice period. When you are in between novice and intermediate, squats are replaced with some kind of squat variation or partial on the second workout of the week, usually front squats. When you get to intermediate, it will depend on exactly the programming you choose, but basically like Tot said, only one max effort squat workout a week.

Starr and Rip also strongly recommend completely replacing deads with partial, assistance movements after you can deadlift a decent amount of weight because full deads just take too much out of your recovery capability and seriously interferes with your development in everything else. For example, week 1 - haltings, week 2 - rack pulls, repeat, test full range deads every once in a while.

Although we have the 15s in HST, Rip would never, ever consider doing deads at such a high rep range, unless it was specifically for rehabilitation at an extremely light weight. High rep squats are also like an ace you hold in your deck to be used sparingly when necessary.

However, keep in mind the underlying philosophies. HST promotes hypertrophy. Starr/Rip promotes building functional strength for sports (not training for the sake of it and not trying to lift as much weight as possible). Westside and other powerlifting systems is all about lifting as much weight as possible, period. So, choose your deadlifting and squat programming based on your individual goals, but keep in mind how dangerous and self-contradicting too much deadlift volume can be.
 
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(nipponbiki @ Jun. 21 2008,2:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Starr and Rip also strongly recommend completely replacing deads with partial, assistance movements after you can deadlift a decent amount of weight</div>
Could you tell me where these guys say this? I have the &quot;Starting Strength&quot; and &quot;Practical Programming&quot; by Rip.

Bill Starr's intermediate 5x5 program. It has about 2,5 times more volume for SQ than DL. So I am wondering, for example: Could I reduce SQ by 3 sets per week. And increase DL by 1 set?
 
Bobpit,

When I go home tonight, I will look it up and tell you the page numbers.

I also read Rip's forum everyday. I read every thread, every post. He does give specific comments to back up what he says when pressed for it, which happens from time to time.

I don't really know what your current program is and what your goals are exactly. But there is not necessarily one right or wrong answer to your question. What is it you think you can gain by implementing what you suggest?
 
nipponbiki

Give me the forum link please. Thank you for the help.

I am doing Maxstim right now. And somehow I think that the DL and maybe even the SQ volume is too much.

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(nipponbiki @ Jun. 21 2008,6:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What is it you think you can gain by implementing what you suggest?</div>

I am just trying to understand what is happening. By understanding how things will change by changing the parameters, I get a better grasp of things. That's all.
 
@bobpit: Your individual anthropometry will have a bearing on how much stress is placed on your body when deadlifting and squatting. Also, your tolerance to exercise will depend on your conditioning. If you are finding that you are not able to make progress as expected due to fatigue accumulation then, as long as your rest and diet are in good shape, you need to cut back on the exercises that are taking the heaviest toll on your recovery ability (until you build up a greater tolerance). Because deads are often the exercise that takes the heaviest toll on your recovery ability - due to the amount of weight that can be lifted - it makes sense to reduce their frequency first and then to see how things go.

Seeing that you are doing Max-Stim, just lower the number of total reps for those exercises and see whether things improve or not. Again, I'd ease off on the deads first. If you are working at loads around your 5RM, just try to get 10 reps rather than 20. Even if you only get 6 or 7 reps but continue to add a little weight each deadlift session you will still be stressing your system hard and increasing strain each session.
 
Once a week deadlifting (once you are past baby weights) is the common consensus as far as &quot;ideal&quot;- and for good reason (as already explained in other posts). I have just two things to offer:


1) Coans 16 week peaking program - even if you dont want to try it, reading through the %age increases and corresponding volume decreases will help flesh out basic deadlift training education in terms of cycle programming. Easily found with a net search.

2) In my personal experience 10x3 once a week can work crazy good with deadlifts. Currently this is how I work it (not to recommend my way to others but just to show how I make it work:

Monday- Flat bench 10x3
overhead press 2x12

Tuesday- Chest supported rows 10x3
upright rows 2x12

thursday- overhead press - 10x3
incline bench 2x12

friday - deadlift 10x3
chest supported rows 2x12
I start each cycle @ around 80% of the end of each cycles 1rm (after a 9 day SD and a light &quot;getting back up to speed week&quot;) and the 12's @ around 75% 12rm from the end of the last cycle . I use load progression principle ect. and find that for a while now this works ideally for me - again , this isn't offered as a suggested program for anyone - just a perhaps &quot;wordy&quot; illustration of how 10x3 can fit once a week deadlifting quite well.

smile.gif
 
Bobpit,

Rip mentions it briefly on page 209 of SS:BBT. I looked through Practical Programming and didn't find anything specific to this issue.

The forum is http://strengthmill.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=36

Of course 3X10 or similar can be used with deadlifts. It's just a matter of what you want to train. With the 10s, it's more cardiovascular endurance, muscle fatigue management, and hypertrophy; not so much strength and force production.

Having said that, and specifically because of this and the very nature of deadlifts being what they are, it is my personal opinion to do deads at low reps for maximum development of force production and use squats for the cardiovascular endurance work. I think it is very inefficient and counter-productive to use deads for this purpose. 10s might be OK, but anything more than that is in my opinion, silly. I might change my mind about that regarding speed work though, if I ever get there, which is unlikely since I am not trying to be a powerlifter.
 
If your 3x10 comment was directed toward's Russ' post about 3x10, then you should know - just for clarification - that Russ was referring to triples, rather than tens. Ten sets of three.
 
Tot and Russ,

Oh really? I didn't even consider that because of the intensity and volume. Russ, now I am intrigued. Please tell us more about your dead routine, how it effects the rest of your program, and how you deal with recovery. Looking forward to your reply.

Tot, do you or have you done similar? If so, I would like to hear about your experience as well.
 
Here is what I am doing this HST cycle. I have added legs back into the HST mix, and starting off with light weights, I am doing both Deadlifts and Squats each WO, for a total of 3x/week each. I plan on doing this through the 10's and then alternating when I hit the 5's. I may lower the frequency to once/week when I hit the 3's. The point is, that when loads are light (all relative here), then one doesn't have to worry about frequency as much. However, when the loads get high, then recovery must be taken into consideration!
 
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(nipponbiki @ Jun. 22 2008,6:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Tot and Russ,

Oh really? I didn't even consider that because of the intensity and volume. Russ, now I am intrigued. Please tell us more about your dead routine, how it effects the rest of your program, and how you deal with recovery. Looking forward to your reply.

Tot, do you or have you done similar? If so, I would like to hear about your experience as well.</div>
@nipponbiki: check this thread for more info:
DIARY OF A MADMAN

and this one:
BARK AT THE MOON

Oh, and for 10 points, guess what Russ listens to whilst he's working out?
biggrin.gif
 
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(Lol @ Jun. 17 2008,5:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It all depends on what level of intensity you are training at (ie. %age of 1RM). Deads are particularly brutal at around 90% of 1RM and above - that's around your 5RM. Any more than once a week and my lower back complains too much the rest of the time. That's just me though. You need to find out what works for you.</div>
My 5 RM is somewhere around 80%. 90% would be 2RM for me. But hey that´s me, I´m a bit weird.

OnT: I too have found that DL:ing more than once just doesnt work. Gets exhausted after a week or so and performance is not good. There was once that I could DL more and then it was 1½/week and that was during a noobie-progress when bulking.
Training full body 3d/w alternating between squats/deadlifts. Had great gains back then though
smile.gif
 
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(nipponbiki @ Jun. 22 2008,1:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Tot and Russ,

Oh really? I didn't even consider that because of the intensity and volume. Russ, now I am intrigued. Please tell us more about your dead routine, how it effects the rest of your program, and how you deal with recovery. Looking forward to your reply.

Tot, do you or have you done similar? If so, I would like to hear about your experience as well.</div>
It works but you may have to work up to being able to handle that kind of workload. It also depends on what % of your 1 RM you are using. Obviously doing 10 sets of 3 with your 3 RM is going to be a bit taxing.
I've done it for short periods with just my deadlift and it worked great for improving deadlift strength. As things got heavier, on some of the later sets I had to go to doubles instead of triples, but... I could just have been wussing out.
 
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