Does HST REALLY work?

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(ryder22 @ Apr. 21 2009,12:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But as for myself I recommend Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength Basic Barbell Training Before any HST program for the reason that you can have more size gains in doing HST if you had a solid strength base and SS is geared towards your foundation in terms of strength and mastery of the core lifts. You can also check my thread at the Strength Specific Forum and the topic is namely Starting Strength before HST.
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Ryder, I'm with ya -- I've been following your thread on SST.

Have to be honest and say that after 2 years of consistent HST, my gains have slowed. Realizing that I can't gorge myself to greater size gains (without consequences), I'm thinking that it might be time to focus more on improving strength. Seems my body is telling me I need some sort of &quot;shock&quot;.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Have to be honest and say that after 2 years of consistent HST, my gains have slowed. Realizing that I can't gorge myself to greater size gains (without consequences), I'm thinking that it might be time to focus more on improving strength. Seems my body is telling me I need some sort of &quot;shock&quot;. </div>

Its good to realize one's limitations, your decision is sound! IMO.
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(Totentanz @ Apr. 19 2009,10:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yeah but where's the wheels bro??</div>
I don't think that a leg shot, or the lack thereof, is relevant to his post.

ryolacap's upper body pic speaks for itself; if you agree that he is muscular, and in the case his legs were underdeveloped, the only rational conclusion would be that he has ignored them or lack of genetics. Either way, there is no reason to think that a routine that has worked well for the upper body wouldn't work for the legs.

So instead of dismissing his routine because he didn't show his legs, I'd be much more interested in knowing:
a) years of training
b) are the results 100% drug free
c) a typical 10 day cycle, outlining exercises, sets and reps

So please give us sample of your routine.
 
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(Michel @ Apr. 26 2009,10:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Totentanz @ Apr. 19 2009,10:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yeah but where's the wheels bro??</div>
I don't think that a leg shot, or the lack thereof, is relevant to his post.

ryolacap's upper body pic speaks for itself; if you agree that he is muscular, and in the case his legs were underdeveloped, the only rational conclusion would be that he has ignored them or lack of genetics. Either way, there is no reason to think that a routine that has worked well for the upper body wouldn't work for the legs.

So instead of dismissing his routine because he didn't show his legs, I'd be much more interested in knowing:
a) years of training
b) are the results 100% drug free
c) a typical 10 day cycle, outlining exercises, sets and reps

So please give us sample of your routine.</div>
Apparently tongue-in-cheek humor is lost on this one.
 
To the original poster:

Eventually, after reading, lifting for a long time, reading some more, you'll see the light.

None of this really matters.

Train in a non retarded way, keep your diet sensible and you'll have results.

That's it. There is no big secret. There is no perfect routine that will pack mass on to you, and there is no perfect secret diet.

Just train sensibly, eat enough food and over time you will grow.
 
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(Totentanz @ Apr. 26 2009,11:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Apparently tongue-in-cheek humor is lost on this one.</div>
That would make at least two of us then: Fausto also picked up on your post saying &quot;The whole package is important, most people pay huge importance to one and forget the other.&quot;

There is nothing in your original post that would indicate that it was a humorous remark. If you would have added a smiley of some sort then maybe. Yet you didn't bother to explain to Fausto that you were joking when he expanded on your question and asking for a picture as well.

So perhaps you should consider that the problem lies in how you expressed yourself rather than how some of us interpreted it.

Also, I don't appreciate when people refer to me in third person, so please don't give me a reason again to start to address you disrespectfully as well.
 
It all works if you tailor any program to your specific level of conditioning, eat properly, manufacture enough testosterone to support muscle growth, etc. HST just gets you the most bang for your buck. You can acheive similar or perhaps even slightly better results if you choose to train 3 hours per day, 8 days per week. However, the incremental results will be very costly. It all depends on how much you want to invest.
 
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(Totentanz @ Apr. 26 2009,10:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">To the original poster:

Eventually, after reading, lifting for a long time, reading some more, you'll see the light.

None of this really matters.

Train in a non retarded way, keep your diet sensible and you'll have results.

That's it.  There is no big secret.  There is no perfect routine that will pack mass on to you, and there is no perfect secret diet.

Just train sensibly, eat enough food and over time you will grow.</div>
Absolutely true - Totz knows whereof he speaks.


I would add that there is a lot to be said for focusing on strength exclusively for periods of time in order to get your hypertrophy rep ranges (when you revisit them) significantly higher leading to continued growth . This &quot;sling shot&quot; mentality will beat grinding away forever in hypertrophy ranges everytime. Triples anyone? How about a Doug Hepburn singles program?etc.etc.

I'll go further and say that the best thing one could do (that practically no one actually does) is to focus purely on strength for YEARS , then switch to hypertrophy .


Does HST work? Yes... Is it the best? It may be for you - that would really depend on many things including temperament. Routines that &quot;click&quot; with you mentally and seem to &quot;fit&quot; your lifestyle and drive the best usually work out the best over time FOR YOU.
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Sometimes it's easy to get stuck in &quot;the box&quot; of associating HST with fullbody 3x/wk workouts , while this IS the basic template - using other programming can be done while still being &quot;HST&quot; . The whole 15,10, and 5 rep range can be manipulated too - I believe these principles are presented the way they are because few lifters really educate them selves to the point where they can make intelligent (as opposed to haphazard) programming decisions.

Check this:

Mon-push
weds-pull
fri-push
sun-pull
tues-push
etc.etc.

PUSH
Flat - 6x3 going to 3x3 @ cycles end
Military- 3x6 going to 1x6 @ cycles end
Incline- 1x12 (auxillary)

PULL
BB row- 6x3 going to 3x3 @ cycles end
Deadlift/Squat (alternated) 3x6 going to 1x6 @ end
Upright rows- 1x12 (auxillary)

this particular &quot;routine&quot; is one I've used often for a more strength oriented cycle - and yes squat would be considered a push by some but it fits better this way.Point is you can make huge strength gains on cycles like this where reps are low , focus and intensity is high - it really depends on the genetic robustness of your joints as to wether something like this will suit you. When you switch back to hypertrophy oriented routines (after a deload of course) growth will ensue if nutrition is on.

Again , this is just offered as an example not as a solution nessessarily as you may do better with slightly higher &quot;low-ish&quot; rep ranges (5x5 is popular for a reason). Point is really to make sure to not get stuck in the box- HST can be a very tweakable platform to build on. A smart lifter will know when to apply fullbody when to use splits etc. STUDYING your log book(s) over the years is really where you see what works when and for how long.

Cookie cutter works in a generic kind of way but to be optimal you really need to become a student of your own body,CNS, recovery etc.

Wow pretty long winded hey? I guess my typing finger will see some growth off this response as long as I feed and rest it...
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(Totentanz @ Apr. 26 2009,11:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">To the original poster:

Eventually, after reading, lifting for a long time, reading some more, you'll see the light.

None of this really matters.

Train in a non retarded way, keep your diet sensible and you'll have results.

That's it.  There is no big secret.  There is no perfect routine that will pack mass on to you, and there is no perfect secret diet.

Just train sensibly, eat enough food and over time you will grow.</div>
To be honest, I really don't like this attitude. It also begs the question of what &quot;not retarded&quot; entails.

If somebody is asking how to optimize the (training) variables under their control in order to maximize their muscle growth, there is clearly more to it than &quot;do anything not retarded,&quot; otherwise why are we all on a website called hypertrophy-specific training?
 
Well obviously when we get into specifics, it matters. But you know as well as I do that there are always people saying &quot;does x program really work?&quot; and yeah, for the most part, it probably does work. Totally different topic than talking about fine tuning in order to maximize growth. And when you get into specifics like that, then things change. Then using a blanket routine like the sample HST program (what most people consider to be the actual HST, rather than considering HST to be simply the principles) is no longer the best thing. But would the sample program work if you followed it, had a good diet and did everything like you were supposed to? Yeah, it would.
 
Tot

Next time we better forget about the wheels, hey? Some things are better off left unsaid! Sad...but true!
 
To elaborate a little more: I'm not saying that talking about routines doesn't matter, I'm just suggesting that most people get too hung up on finding out which routines &quot;work&quot; instead of actually applying them.
And &quot;non-retarded&quot; refers to what most people learn after a few years of reading and lifting. You eventually figure out what things are going to usually work and what things are pretty much useless. Hence why I said &quot;after a long time&quot; because eventually most people get it and realize that for the most part, it isn't going to matter whether you are doing 3 sets of 5 or 2 sets of 10, as long as you are doing the main things that are important - adding weight to the bar over time, etc etc. Look at all the routines that seem to work and they all have a lot of things in common, as you would expect.

So yeah, no magic routine. Just get the basics and then you can add the details to your routine in order to fine tune it.
 
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(Michel @ Apr. 26 2009,3:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So instead of dismissing his routine because he didn't show his legs, I'd be much more interested in knowing:
a) years of training
b) are the results 100% drug free
c) a typical 10 day cycle, outlining exercises, sets and reps

So please give us sample of your routine.</div>
agree but i would also add this (have you done HST)
because he claims to have better results doing his routine,how can he compare if he hasnt done HST
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I think its more important to place your confidence in the right principles of building muscle, than it is to a specific routine.

People should work towards self governing their training, based on sound principles of muscle growth. But a lifter has to start somewhere...so, they start having to put a little trust in a routine that is already laid out for them. But at the mean time, they should try to self educate themselves on the science behind all of it.

It's at this juncture (self education) that we get a split in outcomes. Some guys shy away from the science and prefer to latch onto &quot;movements&quot; or &quot;fads&quot; or &quot;groups&quot; or whatever. They never really get a true understanding of what's going on in their bodies when they train/eat/supplement/inject/etc. So they are left to bullheadedly preach, attack, and defend their choice of training styles.

The other guys, try on different styles of training as they do their homework. They are usually pretty quiet until they get things pretty much figured out. Then when they do open up to help a newbie out, they really are helpful. They tend not to be confrontational but instead support others in whatever choice of training style they chose by helping them focus on the most effective aspects of that style.

Obviously, I believe HST is still the best foundation for anybody wanting to get big as rapidly as possible, and at the same time, allowing for a long term regimen. But I don't believe that people should stop thinking for themselves once they've used it a while.
 
Does it work?

It did for me, my first HST cycle got me 5 kilos of mostly muscle in 8 weeks. All of my friends noticed the size increase. I must say there is a somewhat bigger learning curve when designing a HST cycle, but if you read everything on this site then you will be surprised. I've tried showing a few friends with mixed results. Guys who are university educated tend to believe scientific evidence and what studies say than your stereotypical gym meathead or the guys on &quot;bodybuilding.com&quot;.

On the topic of &quot;retarded&quot; training, yes I have developed a hatred of those awful &quot;body part splits&quot; routines we see in the muscle mags. They only work well with steroids to be honest (speaking from experience here). Absolutely no thought goes into them and I cannot stand to hear someone tell me that a muscle takes a week to recover and should not be trained more than this.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The other guys, try on different styles of training as they do their homework. They are usually pretty quiet until they get things pretty much figured out. Then when they do open up to help a newbie out, they really are helpful. They tend not to be confrontational but instead support others in whatever choice of training style they chose by helping them focus on the most effective aspects of that style.</div>

Bryan - couldn't agree more, certainly beats me when someone gets all &quot;worked up&quot;,  
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 over some comment about &quot;wheels&quot;, after all...in my honest opinion...I would not like to look like Johnny Bravo, I suppose some guys will!
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Most of the guys here, who as you say, have done their homework, are quite helpful, and certainly the question initially put was addressed, so what's all the fuss about
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HST will work for anybody provided they stick to the rules, the biggest and most relevant emphasis should be put on optimal nutrition (+/-70 %), the other 30% hover between a well designed program and consistent self discipline!

Seemore

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">On the topic of &quot;retarded&quot; training, yes I have developed a hatred of those awful &quot;body part splits&quot; routines we see in the muscle mags. They only work well with steroids to be honest (speaking from experience here). Absolutely no thought goes into them and I cannot stand to hear someone tell me that a muscle takes a week to recover and should not be trained more than this.</div>

HST as has been put before, is a set of principles/guidelines rather than a set way of training, if you work within these parameters, you will gain!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Guys who are university educated tend to believe scientific evidence and what studies say than your stereotypical gym meathead or the guys on &quot;bodybuilding.com&quot;</div>

If you classify yourself in the class you mention first above, then you ought to have a constructive view of other programs, I for one am currently trying out a split program, only difference is it has HST principles within.

My point of view is that we need to have vision rather than get doggedly detremined to only follow one thing! Constantly searching newer and better ways of advancing!
 
I've tried other programs (and I'm still trying other programs like 5 x 5 and max stim) which is how I found HST. I did HIT and other programs I found and paid for on the internet for about 2.5 years with basically no gains in size despite a mammoth effort. Some strength gains did occur, but nothing to write home about for the time, money and effort I was putting into my training (5 days per week to failure that led to burnout).

Fausto, my point about meatheads, is you try having a forum like the one we have here on bodybuilding.com and you will just get get littered with jockish comments about using submaximal weights and people repeating the mantra of &quot;it takes a week for a muscle to recover fully and it should not be trained more than this&quot;, despite any studies that frequently are shown here saying otherwise.

HST does require a bit of reading and learning too setup a proper routine and this is what puts a lot of people off. I even told one of my gym friends how I got my gains that he noticed so quickly and after showing him the website here he couldn't be bothered to read it and setup a cycle especially when they hear the part about taking 2 weeks off and then using submaximal weights. I was even going to help him, but he didn't want to hear it even after seeing my proof. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Personal trainers will be out of business if the secret of HST gets out.
 
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(seemore @ May 10 2009,4:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Personal trainers will be out of business if the secret of HST gets out.</div>
Ditto, hypertophy speaking. We owe a lot to Bryan and the research behind HST. But we also owe something to ourselves for using the information wisely. Applied knowledge is power...and desire breeds success.
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fausto, my point about meatheads, is you try having a forum like the one we have here on bodybuilding.com and you will just get get littered with jockish comments about using submaximal weights and people repeating the mantra of &quot;it takes a week for a muscle to recover fully and it should not be trained more than this&quot;, despite any studies that frequently are shown here saying otherwise.</div>

Agreed, some meatheads just never learn!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Personal trainers will be out of business if the secret of HST gets out.</div>

You bet, here I definitelly agree, this is where they are too silly to catch on!
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