HST and RIPTOE Training

W

wisslewj

New Member
I have been reading the RIPTOE method of trainging and noticed its quite similar to the HST method. It goes something like this:

Week 1:

Monday - Workout A
Wednesday -Workout B
Friday - Workout A

Week 2:

Monday - Workout B
Wednesday - Workout A
Friday - Workout B

Etc.

For the actual workouts read below:

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift
**2x8 Dips (if you cant do these or no assist machine then do Decline Dumbbell Bench Press with your hands Facing each other)

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Standing military press
3x5 Pendlay or Bent Rows (or power cleans)
**2x8 Chin-ups (recommended mainly if doing the cleans)

It calls for a MWF of the routine just like HST. My question is this: Is this method above similar to what happens in the final weeks of 5's (weeks 7 & 8) in HST.

If I got it right, weeks 7, 8 and possibly more if one pushes it, is 5's where more weight is continually added, just as the above routine.

So is the end of HST a RIPTOE style routine then? I am just curious.

Jeff
 
Jeff,

Let me clarify that it's "Rippetoe", and the routine is from Mark Rippetoe's book Starting Strength.

The similarities of basic compound movements done 3x per week are there. The 3 sets of 5 is often done in HST 5s, though it doesn't have to be 3 sets of 5.

The HST weeks 5 and 6 will use submaximal weights until the end of the two weeks. The Rippetoe routine, on the other hand, will be at maximum load once the lifter has been on it for a time.

The Rippetoe routine is mainly for relative beginners who are able to consistently make linear progress and add weight to their maximum almost every workout. HST also has the lifter adding weight workout by workout, but does it by starting with submax loads. HST, while it can be used by beginners, is more suited to intermediate to advanced lifters and the Rippetoe routine to beginners.

The similarities that you note aren't so much by design as due to the fact that sound programs will often share some similarities.
 
Lifting,

Kewl. Thanks alot.

that said, as someone who has trained alot in the past, took some time away and just finished an 8 week split routine, which do you think would be more appropriate for me?

I am a born again lifter, but with a past that included a good deal of training. Any thoughts?

Thanks so much
Jeff
 
Jeff,

It's always risky giving advice to someone that you don't really know. However, I'll offer my opinion.

If you were a lot stronger before, or simply have been making quick gains on the split routine, I'd go with the Rippetoe routine. Then, when it stalls, give HST a shot. Whatever the cause, "muscle memory" seems to be real, and guys who were once a lot stronger can usually get it back much quicker the second time around. That makes me think that you might be able to add weight to the bar weekly or even more often.

A lot of guys have both size and strength gains each cycle with HST, but those gains come over the 6-8 weeks or more. I'd go with the one that allows the fastest gains (Rippetoe) until it no longer worked for me. Then HST would be a great program to follow it with.
 
Thanks Lifting,

Yeah the 8 week routine I just got off of yielded great gains. I gained 20 lbs of muscle in about 7 weeks and plateued out on weight gain the last week. However, I did continue to increase my strength quite a bit every week.

I guess now I am wondering....Since my weight gains have stalled (even though strength gains increase still) will I need to take a break from working out, a sort of SD of sorts, to be able to make weight gains on the Rippetoe program?

I really want to gain mass. I am not so concerned with strength at the moment as that will come back quick for the reasons you mentioned.

Thanks so much for the help
Jeff
 
Take a couple of weeks off. (SD). Then start an HST routine, that is the best for hypertrophy & mass...better than rippetoe's program. Don't forget to eat a ton once you start HST.
 
<div>
(Lifting N Tx @ Apr. 18 2007,22:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you were a lot stronger before, or simply have been making quick gains on the split routine, I'd go with the Rippetoe routine. Then, when it stalls, give HST a shot. Whatever the cause, &quot;muscle memory&quot; seems to be real, and guys who were once a lot stronger can usually get it back much quicker the second time around. That makes me think that you might be able to add weight to the bar weekly or even more often.</div>
This is what I'm doing. I had started my first HST routine, I finished the 15's, but then was out of town for 4 days and then got sick when I got back and was out for another week.

In that time got the book starting strength and pratical programming and I figured since I was still a novice or had some newbie gains to be had, I wanted to switch to that routine. If there are gains to be had daily then I want them and I had never done 5's before and they were extremly enjoyable while searching for my 5 rm maxes that I decided to switch. So far it's been 3 weeks and I have been able to add weight every workout except for one workout on the mil press. So I went and got those ankle weights to put on the bar so I can make 2.5 lb jumps instead.

But once I get passed this point and when the resets don't work anymore on that routine, I'm coming back to HST and do a full cycle.

This is an excellent resource for that program. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

I refer to it all the time. I'm doing the pendlay rows instead of the cleans as well.
 
Hey Kaos,

Did you just make strength gains or did you gain weight as well, ie mass?

The reason I asked is that my program was a 12 week program. I made huge mass and weight gains the first 7 weeks but as the program became based on 5's (as in 5 sets of 5) I quit making any mass gains and decided to do something different. (Still getting stronger but I prefer the mass lol)

My guess is that I just adapted to the workout and need some SD. I am a bit nervous about the Rippetoe in that its based on 5's, hoever, after the break that may not matter.

So....any mass gains?

Jeff
 
Both are sound programs and you will gain mass on either one if you eat enough.  Rippetoe's is more geared for strength and for beginners, HST is Hypertrophy-specific.

If you want hypertophy, and you already gained 20 lb.s... do HST.  You are not a novice.
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I do believe I have. Just not quite sure how much.

Here are the vitals so far.

Started the program on Wednesday 3-27 weight 180.5 on the morning off. Didn't measure waist at that time, but other measurements were around 36 - 36.25&quot; around my waist

Officially started measuring waist and weight most mornings. I'll write down some of my measurements. I have been measuring with a myo tape and regular tape measure. Both give diff numbers but both have been consistent in the total increase which is about .5&quot; on my waist.

weight waist
3/30 Friday 182.5 36.25
4/6 Friday 184 36.25 waist stayed the same for this whole week
4/9 Mon 185 36.75
4/13 friday 186.5 36.75
4/18 today 187 36.75

So I gained some fat obviously. As to how much. I have no idea, but I'm using these numbers below as a guideline.

I have no idea about my body fat, but I'm probably around 20% BF so these number might not apply to me.

**** from this site http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/ShitOrGetOffThePot3.html

For a well-hydrated man between 8 and 15% body-fat with full glycogen stores, each whole inch gained or lost on the waist will be worth about an average of around 3-5 lbs of body-fat. (note: this will only work for a man).

A near perfect scenario is 1/4 an inch increase on the waist for every 3-5 pounds of scale weight you gain. If you can do that you’re awesome. An acceptable scenario is 1 inch for every 6-8 lbs scale weight or about ¼ inch per 1.5 pounds. Any worse then that and you’re putting on too much fat.

Damn writing it down, I realize what a stat freak I really am.
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Thanks guys.

I think that I will try the HST first since it is more mass geared.  I appreciate you guys taking the time to help me weigh the pros an cons.  It looks to me also that weeks 7 and 8 of HST is awfully similar to HST.  I figure I can get the best of both worlds by doing HST.

Thanks again for all the help.  I will let ya know how it goes once I start....a loooong week and a half from now lol!
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God Bless
Jeff
 
<div>
(scientific muscle @ Apr. 19 2007,00:35)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Both are sound programs and you will gain mass on either one if you eat enough. Rippetoe's is more geared for strength and for beginners, HST is Hypertrophy-specific.

If you want hypertophy, and you already gained 20 lb.s... do HST. You are not a novice.
smile.gif
</div>
That is a good point. 20 pounds is a lot so far. I can't wait until I say I have gained 20 pounds. That will put me at a nice 200. Last year when I was a little over 200 my waist was 41.75 around the love handles (march 06) where I always measure. I got down to 172-175 with a waist at 36.5 on 10/22/06. I did some kettlebell training and gained little weight and lost .25 to .5 on my waist.

Things got much better when I started the starting strength program.
 
Kaos,

sounds like you are doing well yourself. keep at it.
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As for fat, this is easily solved via a proper diet. I myself would advocate an almost all raw diet, meat icluded. However, one can still I think achieve much benefit by cutting carbs way down and upping healthy raw fats. If you are against eating raw beef fats then things like raw coconut oil, cod liver oil, and such are quite useful.

The proof is in the pudding (no eating pudding lol) in that the 20 lbs I gained was all muscle. My body fat is literally not existant. I know there must be some somewhere but I will be darned if I can find it lol. Contrast this to when I worked out before and ate weight gainer and protein powders, I gained quite a bit of fat.

This is no suprise though when one understands the bio chemistry of carbs and how they oxidize and get stored. I am a big fan of low carbs anyway as grains are not terribly healthy. But eat all the raw greens ya can!
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Anyway, keep up the good work and maybe consider upping healthy fats and lowering carbs. You will still get the needed cals but not the uneeded fat. ;)

Jeff
 
Thanks and yeah there is whole foods I looked at that has coconut oil and I'm going to start using that to cook with. I'm not afraid of a little saturated fat. Hell I eat fast food burgers for quite a bit of my post workout meals after my shake.
smile.gif
So far it doesn't seem to be hurting much. But if it does, I have my records to see where I went wrong.
 
Please stop giving bad diet advice. If you want to avoid fat gain while bulking, you have to watch your overall calorie level and find the sweet spot where fat gain is minimized. Regardless, unless you are a newbie, you probably won't be able to put on very much muscle without gaining at least a little fat.
Anyone who isn't a total newbie and is able to gain something like 20 lbs of muscle with no fat gain is either coming off of a long layoff, on drugs, or lying about their results.

Cutting back carbs will not prevent fat gain. If you eat a calorie excess and there are no carbs in that excess, you will still gain fat.
 
Hey Tote,

I dont want to get into diet here as that was not the point of this thread, but cutting out certain carbs will in fact have a huge impact in fat.

I can also attest to the fact that the more raw food one eats the less fat is gained. All calories are not equal despite the thoughts that they are.

From research and my own personal experiences, a diet that is generally 60% healthy fats, 25% protein, and 15% carbs that are not starchy WILL cause muscle gain and very little to no fat gain.

When the body is burning fat for energy, its darn near impossible to put on any stored fat. That said if you eat a ridiculous amount of calories I suppose you could add some fat.

My own experience is that 3000 calories of which 50% was carbs in the past made me fat and made muscle gain quite tough. On 3000 calories with the above layout, I have yet to add any fat to my body. All my gains have been muscle. (Besides, eating more fat limits the amount of food you can eat in one sitting)

It really comes down to the chemistry of how fats and carbs are oxidized and other bodily systems. The point is that it does work. Heck, thats what Atkins is sorta based on and people lost tons of weight. I do disagree though with his methods of eating fried burgers and junk. But his principles of macro nutrients were pretty on.

I have seen this work over and over again with the same results every time - muscle gain and very little body fat gain. Fat is quite an anabolic thing and should be the bulk of any good weightlifters diet. Carbs on the other hand cause insulin spikes which can be unhealthy long term. (just look at all the cases of diabetes these days and most eat lots of carbs). Most dont realize that frutcose sugars actually cause insulin resistance. It wont harm ya overnight but repeated bouts will eventually. One shouldnt attempt to build the body at the expence of long term health is my thought.

Anyway, I know the above works, that is why I suggested it. You dont have to follow it, but I have seen hordes lose alot of fat weight doing it while gaining good mass.

My 2 cents anyway
God Bless,
Jeff
 
I'm going to stay out of the diet questions.
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As for the routine, if you want to do HST that should be fine. I do want to note that I think too much is made of mass vs. size. For most trainees who consume enough food they'll go up together. It is possible, especially for strength athletes who are trying to maintain the same weight class, to add a lot of strength and little size. This is not the norm, though.

I'll throw in a brief quote from the HST FAQ article on Training for Fiber Type:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
On the other hand, if hypertrophy is a matter of load, and all fibers hypertrophy in response to increasing load, then hypertrophy should go up as load goes up. In other words the group that lifted the heaviest relative weight should have experienced the greatest amount of hypertrophy in ALL fiber types irrespective of the number of reps (within reason). And that is exactly what happened.
</div>

If you read the whole thing you'll see the critical part that load plays in hypertrophy. So, I would say if doing HST to try to extend the 5s and set PRs for as long as you can as you would if doing Rippetoe. Then, re-test maxes before doing a second run. A lot of people will just bump the weights a bit for another HST run, but if you're still adding strength quickly you want to use heavier weights where you can.

Anyway, good luck and I encourage you to read lots in that HST FAQ sub-forum here. There's lots of good information there.
 
Thanks Lifting,

If I understand the HST right, by weeks 7 and 8, I up the weight and continue doing 5's until the weight gets heavier then what I can do with 5's and start either doing negatives or clustering reps of say 2 or 3. Is that right?

So if I end week 6 at 180 for 5, I would keep adding a little weight each workout until I could no longer reasonably recover or it just got so heavy I couldnt do the 5's, cluster or adaquetly do negatives.

And then you are saying to ride this out as long as possible right? What do you consider to be the right amount to add each workout once you come off of week 6. 180 plus 5 pounds maybe every workout? that would get heavy fast lol. And I woud think would be tough to do for long. But I am willing to try it. Do I have it right?

Alternately, would it be good to not keep adding weight every workout but to just shoot for more reps. say 190 for 3 reps on monday and maybe for 4 on wednesday? Basicaly keep doing this until I reach 5 and then raise the weight again so long as strength is increasing?

Thanks again for all thehelp
Jeff
 
<div>
(wisslewj @ Apr. 19 2007,09:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If I understand the HST right, by weeks 7 and 8, I up the weight and continue doing 5's until the weight gets heavier then what I can do with 5's and start either doing negatives or clustering reps of say 2 or 3. Is that right?

So if I end week 6 at 180 for 5, I would keep adding a little weight each workout until I could no longer reasonably recover or it just got so heavy I couldnt do the 5's, cluster or adaquetly do negatives.</div>
Yes, basically, hit your 5RM at the end of week 6. Then, if you can, keep adding weight until you no longer can do 5 reps. If you aren't starting to feel beat up or overtrained at that point you can do 3's, or cluster for a while to keep adding weight. When you hit the point where you can't add any more you can keep the same weight for a week or two, then SD.

All this is predicated on the idea that you seem to still be adding / recovering strength fast and may be able to continue to make fast gains. I only went a week past the 5s in my just completed HST run. I set some PRs then basically hit a wall. But if you can keep adding weight, do it and enjoy it while it lasts.
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Everyone's gains slow eventually, but one should utilize linear gains as long as possible.
 
Lifting,

Do you keep adding weight every workout after week 6?

Basically, if I end week 6 at 180 for 5, do I then do 185, then 190 then 195? Keep this up until I can no longer do 5 reps, then stop adding weight and play with the reps instead until I hit the wall?

If so I can see why you only made it a week more as the weight gets heavy REALLY FAST.

Jeff
 
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