HST and RIPTOE Training

Jeff,

Yes, pretty much as you said.

Some just set 5 rep PRs while they can then keep to the same weight with 5 reps for another week or two. I think it's a good idea to push a bit beyond your 5RM for a little while with clustering, etc, but this is highly dependent on how you feel, how your joints feel, etc. Either way is ok.
 
First let me make clear that I love HST, it delivers ...


That said- I have two thoughts:

1) There are "better" programs for a beginer that will yeild quicker and more impressive gains , taking advantage of the "noob" effect and the ability to advance the load considerably each and every workout.IMHO and based on experience (mine and others I've "trained"), building a strength base FIRST in the early days puts you further ahead no matter what your long term goals may be. Case in point- I began "training" my Brother in Law in mid February(roughly two months ago) , his 101 lb starting bench has increased to 200 as of yesterday, his dead was 115 and he just pulled 316 on monday(could have probably gone 15-20lbs more but I forbid straps in my "Living room of pain"), his military press was 45 pathetic lbs and is now 116, his BBRow was 85 and is now 191 , these are all for reps with strict ,bordering on anally retentive form.He is now strong enough to "do some damage " on a hypertrophy program such as Hst. Say what you will but without having seen, known the "lump of human flesh" that I had to work with and it's condition two short months you would just have to take my word that these are amazing results for HIM , and if I had put him on HST he would just be finishing his first cycle with 5's of 87 on bench, 39 on military press,73 on rows and deads of 99 lbs. (as per "textbook" HST using hst calculator to prepare program.)Nuff said.........



2) Most noobs DONT have personal mentor/trainers and scour the net compiling a ragtag , combination of complicated programs , some with opposing principals and create thier "routine", HST is sound and until they understand what they are doing , it's imho one of the best ways to learn foundation knowledge of basic principles. Traditionally, noobs spend quite some time doing retarded crap before they humble themselves enuff to do a vanilla version of any program.


I agree(strongly) that HST is optimum for intermediate lifters. AN advanced lifter would be better served cycling HST with strength programs IMHO.
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Lifting,

Thanks, I think I got it!
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However, after reading RUSS's post I am now totally confuddled. Russ, you make alot of sense.

So, can someone help me identify what stage I am in.

In the past I trained alot for sports but I have always been naturally thin. The highest my bench has been is 210 for one. I am presently at about 165 for one after 8 weeks of split training. The strength gains came quite easy again, but I was plesantly suprised by weight gain that I normally never got.

My other parts are equally a little bit behind their former maxes but not by alot. Some things are even stonger then they were before. My shoulders got much stronger.

Sooooo.....where does that put me? Am I intermediate and worthy of HST yet? Or should I keep strength training a bit more until my strength is where it was before?

One thing I am certain of though is that I need SD as the last 8 weeks, while great, is starting to really wear me down in the CNS.

Now I am just trying to figure what to return and do. Every time I think I got it, I get confused again lol.

Thanks
Jeff
 
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(wisslewj @ Apr. 19 2007,09:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I dont want to get into diet here as that was not the point of this thread, but cutting out certain carbs will in fact have a huge impact in fat... blah blah blah</div>
Whatever. You clearly have no interest in truth. I'm not goin to bother with this anymore. I just hope no one is misled by your retarded advice. I'm too much of a dick to let something go though, so I know I have to do something about this, or I'll keep arguing with you about it.
So... congrats, you're the first person on my ignore list!
 
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(RUSS @ Apr. 19 2007,12:35)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">1) There are &quot;better&quot; programs for a beginer that will yeild quicker and more impressive gains , taking advantage of the &quot;noob&quot; effect and the ability to advance the load considerably each and every workout.IMHO and based on experience (mine and others I've &quot;trained&quot;), building a strength base FIRST in the early days puts you further ahead no matter what your long term goals may be. Case in point- I began &quot;training&quot; my Brother in Law in mid February(roughly two months ago) , his 101 lb starting bench has increased to 200 as of yesterday, his dead was 115 and he just pulled 316 on monday(could have probably gone 15-20lbs more but I forbid straps in my &quot;Living room of pain&quot;), his military press was 45 pathetic lbs and is now 116, his BBRow was 85 and is now 191 , these are all for reps with strict ,bordering on anally retentive form.He is now strong enough to &quot;do some damage &quot; on a hypertrophy program such as Hst. Say what you will but without having seen, known the &quot;lump of human flesh&quot; that I had to work with and it's condition two short months you would just have to take my word that these are amazing results for HIM , and if I had put him on HST he would just be finishing his first cycle with 5's of 87 on bench, 39 on military press,73 on rows and deads of 99 lbs. (as per &quot;textbook&quot; HST using hst calculator to prepare program.)Nuff said.........</div>
This makes me feel better about switching to the starting strenght program after my 2 weeks on the 15''s. I just looked at my calendar and I would have been on my second week of 5's and so far I have already passed on my initial 5rm that I had established before my attempt at HST.
 
Kaos,

where are you in comparison to me. Newer, the same, more advanced? I figure if the strenhgth program was best for you and you are comparable to me, maybe that is where I should start as well?

Jeff
 
I transitioned am HST cycle into a Rippetoe routine after my 5s phase, and I pushed some RMs a bit. The following cycle, I switched to a 15 rm, 10rm, 5rm, routine (M,W,F), and I pushed the rms a lot more.

I think the Rippetoe routine is well suited to dove-tail an HST routine. Try it and see how you like it.
 
You`re a stupid cumstain, or a bloody brilliant troll. I think the second posibility is far more likely, and for that I salute you. If that`s not the case...humankind has reached critical mass and God definitely needs to trim it down.

For anyone even considering the stupid, STUPID advice about a huge fat intake, stop right now. Do yourself a helluva lot of good and perform a search on Acylation Stimulating Protein(or ASP). Be amazed at how frackin wrong Atkins and all of the low-carb keto-nutters were. Fat can be gleefully stored without insulin. DNL is not a relevant pathway in humans, unless abnormal conditions appear. It is however hugely relevant in rats, and that`s what all of the fucktard &quot;low-carb is the only way&quot; gurus base their assumptions on. Fat is the first nutrient to be stored as fat. Why?Because it`s the easiest to be stored as fat, and your body kindof loves taking the path of lowest resistance. The assumption that increasing fat intake increases fat oxidation is retarded. Lowering carb-intake raises fat-oxidation, but as long as you`re in a positive fat-balance and a positive caloric balance, it`ll do exactly jackshit for you and you`ll gain fat. Are there benefits to low-carbing?Some, but there`s no friggin magic to them, and studies performed on ketogenic and non-ketogenic diets show that fat-loss is pretty much identical in both cases. And no, cumstain, I`m not posting this for you, I`m posting it for anyone who would actually think that you know what you`re talking about and would endeavour on following your retarded advice.

Totentanz, you`re a far wiser man than I am it seems...must be due to the fact that you`re bulking and I`m cutting
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(scientific muscle @ Apr. 18 2007,23:35)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you want hypertophy, and you already gained 20 lb.s... do HST.  You are not a novice.
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wisslewj,
Didn't mean to confuddle you - I'm quoting this because it should clear things for you and I agree 100% with it...
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Apr. 20 2007,11:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You`re a stupid cumstain, or a bloody brilliant troll. I think the second posibility is far more likely, and for that I salute you. If that`s not the case...humankind has reached critical mass and God definitely needs to trim it down.

For anyone even considering the stupid, STUPID advice about a huge fat intake, stop right now. Do yourself a helluva lot of good and perform a search on Acylation Stimulating Protein(or ASP). Be amazed at how frackin wrong Atkins and all of the low-carb keto-nutters were. Fat can be gleefully stored without insulin. DNL is not a relevant pathway in humans, unless abnormal conditions appear. It is however hugely relevant in rats, and that`s what all of the fucktard &quot;low-carb is the only way&quot; gurus base their assumptions on. Fat is the first nutrient to be stored as fat. Why?Because it`s the easiest to be stored as fat, and your body kindof loves taking the path of lowest resistance. The assumption that increasing fat intake increases fat oxidation is retarded. Lowering carb-intake raises fat-oxidation, but as long as you`re in a positive fat-balance and a positive caloric balance, it`ll do exactly jackshit for you and you`ll gain fat. Are there benefits to low-carbing?Some, but there`s no friggin magic to them, and studies performed on ketogenic and non-ketogenic diets show that fat-loss is pretty much identical in both cases. And no, cumstain, I`m not posting this for you, I`m posting it for anyone who would actually think that you know what you`re talking about and would endeavour on following your retarded advice.

Totentanz, you`re a far wiser man than I am it seems...must be due to the fact that you`re bulking and I`m cutting
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Morgoth, have you ever thought of a career in diplomacy?
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Apr. 20 2007,10:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You`re a stupid cumstain, or a bloody brilliant troll. I think the second posibility is far more likely, and for that I salute you. If that`s not the case...humankind has reached critical mass and God definitely needs to trim it down.

For anyone even considering the stupid, STUPID advice about a huge fat intake, stop right now. Do yourself a helluva lot of good and perform a search on Acylation Stimulating Protein(or ASP). Be amazed at how frackin wrong Atkins and all of the low-carb keto-nutters were. Fat can be gleefully stored without insulin. DNL is not a relevant pathway in humans, unless abnormal conditions appear. It is however hugely relevant in rats, and that`s what all of the fucktard &quot;low-carb is the only way&quot; gurus base their assumptions on. Fat is the first nutrient to be stored as fat. Why?Because it`s the easiest to be stored as fat, and your body kindof loves taking the path of lowest resistance. The assumption that increasing fat intake increases fat oxidation is retarded. Lowering carb-intake raises fat-oxidation, but as long as you`re in a positive fat-balance and a positive caloric balance, it`ll do exactly jackshit for you and you`ll gain fat. Are there benefits to low-carbing?Some, but there`s no friggin magic to them, and studies performed on ketogenic and non-ketogenic diets show that fat-loss is pretty much identical in both cases. And no, cumstain, I`m not posting this for you, I`m posting it for anyone who would actually think that you know what you`re talking about and would endeavour on following your retarded advice.

Totentanz, you`re a far wiser man than I am it seems...must be due to the fact that you`re bulking and I`m cutting
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Henry Kissingers got nuthin' on you LOL!!!
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You`d be surprised to know what I do for a living. Perhaps that`s why I exert far less restraint in the face of stupidity when on a forum. And as I said, I suspect he`s a troll, and I can certainly appreciate the skill involved. And I also presume he's someone from BodyRecomposition(Lyle`s site), some of those guys have outright uncanny skill in their trolling endeavours. Which is to be appreciated.
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Apr. 20 2007,10:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You`d be surprised to know what I do for a living. Perhaps that`s why I exert far less restraint in the face of stupidity when on a forum. And as I said, I suspect he`s a troll, and I can certainly appreciate the skill involved. And I also presume he's someone from BodyRecomposition(Lyle`s site), some of those guys have outright uncanny skill in their trolling endeavours. Which is to be appreciated.
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A writer or teacher perhaps? your blurb was genius!
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I'm still laughing rereading it...
 
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(wisslewj @ Apr. 19 2007,22:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Kaos,

where are you in comparison to me. Newer, the same, more advanced? I figure if the strenhgth program was best for you and you are comparable to me, maybe that is where I should start as well?

Jeff</div>
Long answer.

Not sure. I started lifting weights back in 96-97 or so and trained for a few months to maybe 6. I started having shoulder issues along with not feeling good. I definately didn't eat enough and going to failure all the time left my CNS drained. I didn't know much back then so I kept on training through it. After that for the next few years I would train a month or so and start with the shoulder pain again and give up for months at time.

This last time I hadn't trained in years and last october started doing kettlebells at home. I did that for a month and got into a motorcyle accident. Then I started again in late Jan early Feb with KB's and then decided to go back to the gym in March.

Found my maxes for 15/10/5 and then started the 15's of HST. Had to leave town and then got the flu and was out for a week. But when I had to find my 5's I realized how fun it was working with 5's. Never had before. So I read the starting strength book and pratical programming and decided to just do that and to see if I could make progress workout to workout. I hadn't really squatted with heavy weights and I have rarely ever deadlifted so I had a feeling I could probably increase on that quite a bit. So for the hell of I tried it and I've been able to increase on all them. I have an extremely weak bench and it's getting to where I'm able to bench what I used to back in 97, but my squats and deadlift have gone past any previous points.

But I'm planning on stopping soon because my damn shoulder is acting up a little. I so wanted to be able to bench my weight and that's even working my rotator's after each workout, but I'll probably just stick to dips since they seem to be easier on me. But I think the rotator stuff must be working because I did get to workout my bench longer than normal.

So I guess you can just try the rippetoe program for a week or two and see if you can increase workout to workout. It's only a couple of weeks and maybe you can get some new 5rm before your HST cycle. But I would just go with the consensus of the guys here, they know much more about this stuff.
 
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(RUSS @ Apr. 20 2007,10:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(scientific muscle @ Apr. 18 2007,23:35)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you want hypertophy, and you already gained 20 lb.s... do HST. You are not a novice.
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wisslewj,
Didn't mean to confuddle you - I'm quoting this because it should clear things for you and I agree 100% with it...
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Russ, just to confuse the he*l out of everyone
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I'll say this: actually, using the term the way that I've seen Rippetoe and Pendlay use it, he may be a novice. They categorize people in terms of the complexity of training needed to progress, not how strong they are. Someone who can still progress by simply adding weight every session is classed as a novice, even if quite strong.

So your original post was actually very good, and made the point that I had originally attempted to make in this thread, only better.
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That said, since Jeff apparently preferred to do HST I simply tried to make the point that he should push the strength gains as long as possible in the post 5s which would have a similar effect to running a Rippetoe program. He'd be doing 15s and 10s for a few weeks with Vanilla HST then be in heavier weights. Either one should do well for him. Mainly I wouldn't want him to waste time by, for example, only doing a 6 week HST run then adding 10 pounds a lift if he could be adding 50 a lift.

Morgoth, as for the troll question, you're certainly correct about the typical people on Lyle's site. Some of the discussion can be quite entertaining. Taken at face value, they seem collectively to be an extraordinary group of clever, high IQ, unusually dysfunctional people.

In any case, I may be the reason that Jeff found this place. He posted a thread about HST and different rep ranges on bb.com, and I linked to MikeNov's routine here that combines 15s, 10s, and 5s in the same week. The nutritional ideas seemed strange to me, but I don't claim much expertise there and left it alone. However, I've seen lots of folks with weird ideas about nutrition, and discussing it is almost like debating religion. Not likely to change anyone's mind. They're not necessarily trolls, just believe stuff that seems weird to me.

So as to the troll question, I don't know. If he is, he's an unusual and clever one.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You`d be surprised to know what I do for a living. </div>
Let me be the first to guess:  pastor?  rabbi?  
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Not even close...I don`t think my lifestyle would qualify me for serving anything divine. It`s fairly irrelevant though, I wouldn`t want to derail a very very informative thread, would I?

Lifting N Tx...umm, I agree with the unusual and clever one part, that`s why I linked him to one from BR(those guys are very clever and considerably unusual). It bears little relevance, but the set-up is too typically trollish to ignore, wouldn`t you agree?The way he built his argument(s) was bound to interact in a negative fashion with a group that has some idea of basic human physiology and that enjoys reading research in this area. The way he refused to back his outlandish claims with anything else than:cuz I say so, and I iz researcher coz me readz bookz, is also quite contorted, looking in retrospect...it`s as if it was chosen in order to stir the above mentioned group.

The names quoted (Naessens, Price, Atkins) are also seemingly carefully chosen, because they`re all the same kind of nutty, pseudo-scientific, non-research-but-eskimo-observing-based type of individuals. Another huge coincidence in a string of odd ones? And to top it all, add the 20 pounds of LBM with no fat added due to eating raw meat claim, which is also outlandish and structured in such a manner that suggests the goal is to antagonize with folks here, who are likely to know just how crap and unlikely such a claim is. So I`ll maintain my assesment that this is a troll. And I`ve already been more verbose on the subject than I would`ve liked to...if it wouldn`t have been for the retarded post about increased fat and whatnot, I would`ve restrained myself from further interaction, but that simply had to be addressed, IMHO. Moving on
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I have lost alot of my previous respect for Rippetoe. Starting Strength is an awesome book. I loved it. But then I bought Practical Programming and I was sorely disappointed. Nothing much new in there, even some weird, unproven theories about hypertrophy. And the book doesn't even have any real routines in it, it basically just gives guidlenes to go by, which I don't even agree with many of them. I have found MUCH better information on the net about training than in that hyped up book.
 
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Apr. 20 2007,11:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You`re a stupid cumstain, or a bloody brilliant troll. I think the second posibility is far more likely, and for that I salute you. If that`s not the case...humankind has reached critical mass and God definitely needs to trim it down.

For anyone even considering the stupid, STUPID advice about a huge fat intake, stop right now. Do yourself a helluva lot of good and perform a search on Acylation Stimulating Protein(or ASP). Be amazed at how frackin wrong Atkins and all of the low-carb keto-nutters were. Fat can be gleefully stored without insulin. DNL is not a relevant pathway in humans, unless abnormal conditions appear. It is however hugely relevant in rats, and that`s what all of the fucktard &quot;low-carb is the only way&quot; gurus base their assumptions on. Fat is the first nutrient to be stored as fat. Why?Because it`s the easiest to be stored as fat, and your body kindof loves taking the path of lowest resistance. The assumption that increasing fat intake increases fat oxidation is retarded. Lowering carb-intake raises fat-oxidation, but as long as you`re in a positive fat-balance and a positive caloric balance, it`ll do exactly jackshit for you and you`ll gain fat. Are there benefits to low-carbing?Some, but there`s no friggin magic to them, and studies performed on ketogenic and non-ketogenic diets show that fat-loss is pretty much identical in both cases. And no, cumstain, I`m not posting this for you, I`m posting it for anyone who would actually think that you know what you`re talking about and would endeavour on following your retarded advice.

Totentanz, you`re a far wiser man than I am it seems...must be due to the fact that you`re bulking and I`m cutting
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For people with some degree of insulin resistance, there is the not so absurd idea that getting your surplus in fat, as opposed to carbohydrate (assuming a fixed, high-ish level of protein) may result in better partitioning. This was the origin of the idea for Lyle's &quot;low carb bulk&quot; which has been discussed a bit on bodyrecomp.
 
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