HST, insulin resistance, and obesity

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(javacody @ May 30 2007,18:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What is PMSF?

I eat 2000 calories per day. Before, I'd probably eat 5000 or more. I can cut it down, but I thought that much lower than this would potentially slow down weight loss? I can do 1000 calories per day, if you guys think I should.

I'm able to lose about 5 pounds per week lifting three times per week, walking an hour per day, and eating 2000 calories per day. I can also walk more, if you guys think that would help, but isn't there some point at which you simply can't do more and need to be patient? What is that point?

I eat at least 3 cups per day of leafy veggies, but am limiting that right now to keep carbs down. In the future, I plan on eating at least 8 servings per day of fruits and vegetables.

My meals before were meat and potatoes type meals, or pasta, but I'd just eat way too much. I'd eat 2000 to 3000 calories in one setting for my evening meal.

I'm doing several of the tricks I've read about (sitting down and eating ONLY at the dinner table, using a smaller plate, using a smaller fork, setting my fork down between bites, eating several smaller meals, turning off the tv, etc. etc.) to help lower food intake, as well as modifying what I eat.

I didn't exercise for years, had a lot of stress in my life, and slept about 5 hours per night for many years. I ended up with Sleep Apnea so that I didn't get good rest for even the few hours I was sleeping. In my sleep study, I woke up on average about 1.5 times per minute in a four hour period.

All of these things add up.

Also, in High School to lose weight, I would eat only an apple or two a day for weeks at a time. I'd also walk 3+ hours per day. I probably fubared my metabolism.

If only someone could have told me to simply start strength training back then.

My primary goal now is to get to a healthier weight and to heal. I also want to build lots of muscle, but I realized that having lots of muscle is pretty pointless if you die of complications related to obesity. I'll make muscle building my primary goal once I am healthy.</div>
Keep doing what your doing calorie-wise, just walk and move even more. Something that helped me move more was to buy my food everyday and walk to the store every day. pick a store or two of them that are far enough so that you get a good 3 km. I went days on end with caloric deficites well above 1500-2000 and felt fine.
 
Should I do a different weight lifting workout than HST to lose more weight? I've read that lifting before cardio helps to mobilize fat burning faster. I could do a mini work-out before walking each day. I'm willing to do whatever it takes, basically.

What type of lifting is best for burning fat? high-rep/low weight or low-rep/high weight?

What about some kind of weighted vest to use during my walking? Or pulling a sled (made out of an old tire with a 50 pound bag of sand on top)?

I've lost 46 pounds, but I've probably added a good 10 pounds of muscle, at least. Most muscles on my body have doubled and tripled in size. I'm thinking I've managed to burn off 50+ pounds of fat so far. Can you fit 50 pounds of lard in one grocery cart?
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Dude, this`ll be my last post in your thread, coz I really don`t think my contribution can be useful. Read this carefully though and meditate upon it:

YOU'RE FRETTING OVER VERY IRRELEVANT ****, CONSIDERING YOUR CURRENT SITUATION!

Ponder that.
 
OK, Morgoth, I got it, move more, eat less. I hear what you are saying.

I'm doing that. I just want to know what the limits of effectiveness are, generally speaking.

In the meantime, I'm going for a walk right now.
 
But regardless, good job. You are losing weight and that must mean you are doing things right. Good luck.
 
I just got back from my walk. It was 3.25 hours. According to my heart rate monitor watch, I burned over 3500 calories. I now weigh two pounds less than I did before I started.

So thirsty...

so sore, everywhere...

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I was going to eat another meal, but decided to stop at 1339 calories for the day. I'm not feeling real hungry after that death march, which by the way, it rained for the first two hours.

Tomorrow, I'm going to shoot for 5 hours total of walking. 2 in the am, 1 at lunch, and 2 in the pm. I'm also shooting for 1000 calories. I want to be under 400 pounds in the next week. 9 pounds to go.

Thanks for the good wishes, Totentanz.
 
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(javacody @ May 30 2007,23:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I just got back from my walk. It was 3.25 hours. According to my heart rate monitor watch, I burned over 3500 calories. I now weigh two pounds less than I did before I started.

So thirsty...

so sore, everywhere...

cool.gif


I was going to eat another meal, but decided to stop at 1339  calories for the day. I'm not feeling real hungry after that death march, which by the way, it rained for the first two hours.

Tomorrow, I'm going to shoot for 5 hours total of walking. 2 in the am, 1 at lunch, and 2 in the pm. I'm also shooting for 1000 calories. I want to be under 400 pounds in the next week. 9 pounds to go.

Thanks for the good wishes, Totentanz.</div>
OK, can`t hold this back:do you read Oxygen much?Coz it sure as hell seems so.

WTF are you going to do when you`re leaner...go to a negative caloric intake?If now you`re aiming for 1000 calories, in the future you`ll be aiming for -m or something?I`ll be blunt:you got fat in quite a slice of time, I`d be ready to bet that those 9 pounds you want to lose added up over a timespan of more than a week. You didn`t bother with quick results then, but now you want to be lean yesterday. It doesn`t work that way, and if you don`t get some sense in yourself you`ll fail.

Since you want to know about optimal and stuff(which is useless, but if it floats your boat, whatever):http://www.mindandmuscle.net/mindandmuscle/magpage.php?artID=35&amp;pageNum=1.
 
Morgoth, you got my point, and I only had to walk 3.25 miles to do it.
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That Oxygen comment is classic. Thanks for the laugh.

There is a point then, that you really shouldn't go past? I want to know this point. Getting right up to this point may only add an extra pound a week of weight loss, but over 3 months time, that adds up.

Yes, small potatoes, but when you weigh over 400 pounds, every little bit helps. There is also learning what my limits are, how my body works, and what may be effective for other people, should I ever be in a position to help someone else, kind of like you are in now.

I've definitely learned something tonight. That is that you want to work your way up to walking for three hours straight! LOL Those first two hours were enjoyable, but every minute past that was sheer hell.

Also, I know that eating 1000 calories per day is a very quick way to shut down my thyroid. It can't be safe for more than, what 2, 3 days tops? I'll live, but in the end it will do more harm than good, as far as my end goal is concerned.

Optimal does float my boat, and I appreciate the link. I'll look at that stuff later in the AM, I'm only up because my calfs were too tight, and I needed to stretch and get something to drink.
 
Is there any misconception you don`t adhere to?Shut down your thyroid?You`ve screwed your metabolism due to whatever eating you did etc.?Bah, I think I get the point of this conversation...smart, very smart, similar in complexity to what the raw meat dude did...oh well
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Morgoth, I guess I don't understand all of this as well as others. I have a lot to learn.

Doesn't cutting your calories down drastically for more than a few days slow metabolism? That seems to be what articles, such as this one say:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_10_22/ai_n7581374

Am I misunderstanding this?

I've also read that many years of dieting can permanently lower metabolism. Is this incorrect as well?

I realize that I've been kind of a smart-ass to you, and I apologize. I really just want to learn.
 
It takes longer than a few days to experience significant metabolic slowdown, especially in individuals with more bodyfat.
 
I just read the article on determine maximum dietary defecit.

I get different results based on which BF% calculation I use.

According to the US Navy Circumference calculation (http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/library/blbodyfatcalculator.htm), I'm 48% body fat.

According to this calculation (http://www.exrx.net/Testing/BFTestComparisonStudy.html)

I'm 29% body fat.

I have no clue which one is more correct?

At any rate, if my BF is really 48%, then my daily calorie deficit can be as high as 6100 calories without any LBM loss!

My daily maintenance at 15 cals per lb is 6150. I get 50 calories per day. Does this sound correct???

If I go with the 29% BF, then my deficit can be up to 3685.9. That allows me to eat 2464.1 calories per day.

What is a good calculation for figuring out BF%? Is either of the calculations I used close?

Totentanz, would you care to guestimate how long that would be for someone of my weight/height (6'4&quot; 408 lbs)?
 
Cody:
1.) the skinniest guy in here can come up with 5 different bf readings, depending on the method source. You are not alone, and it's just a general guide anyway.
2.) you will find soon enough our 3 members who traditionally utilize caustic responses, that often appear as personal attacks or exasperations. This does not negate the validity of their responses; they're not often incorrect: just rude.
3.) You're hitting it hard, work and study. Don't get lost in mumbojumbo or expect miracles overnight. Houses are built a brick (workout) at a time, and it's possible to kill the bricklayer with too much too soon.
Like Mor said; you didn't get fat last week. Peace/out.
 
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(quadancer @ Jun. 01 2007,07:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Cody:
1.) the skinniest guy in here can come up with 5 different bf readings, depending on the method source. You are not alone, and it's just a general guide anyway.
2.) you will find soon enough our 3 members who traditionally utilize caustic responses, that often appear as personal attacks or exasperations. This does not negate the validity of their responses; they're not often incorrect: just rude.
3.) You're hitting it hard, work and study. Don't get lost in mumbojumbo or expect miracles overnight. Houses are built a brick (workout) at a time, and it's possible to kill the bricklayer with too much too soon.
Like Mor said; you didn't get fat last week. Peace/out.</div>
The builder in you reigns supreme ey?Cheers.

Look, Cody, if you`re not a troll and actually a troubled person(I do happen to have my doubts, but now I`m fed and a bit less inclined towards...how did Quad put it...being caustic). Being overweight does not automatically imply being completely unable to reason for oneself. As a rational human being, do you think that 50 cals per day can be right EVER?(maybe in an IF protocol, but that`s not the issue here).

The most extreme way you can go is...Auschwitz, umm, no, wait that didn`t produce ripped guys...yes, I know now, a PSMF=Protein Sparing Modified Fast. Get Lyle`s Rapid Fatloss Handbook, do that and you`ll be on cloud nine, it`s right up your alley. Or be cheap and look for PSMF on his forum. Or on the web. Or anywhere. You`ll lose weight fast whilst maintaining mass to a satisfactory extent. Drop the learning for now, get a book that handguides you, because otherwise you seem to cling to the most irrelevant crap and come up with the most contorted solutions possible. Probably at some point you`ll regain reason and self confidence and you`ll see that you can actually think in a rational way and approach this with patience and the will to learn what`s right and unlearn silly things from the past. In the meanwhile, by following a very regimented plan you`ll also drop a lot of fat and will probably be a lot happier. I feel this is a good compromise, all things being considered.
 
I have never been really overweight so I'm not going to pipe up with advice. But from what I have read so far, MDE's last post seems like the best advice given so far.

Good luck and keep pressing forward.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Cody:
1.) the skinniest guy in here can come up with 5 different bf readings, depending on the method source. You are not alone, and it's just a general guide anyway.
2.) you will find soon enough our 3 members who traditionally utilize caustic responses, that often appear as personal attacks or exasperations. This does not negate the validity of their responses; they're not often incorrect: just rude.
3.) You're hitting it hard, work and study. Don't get lost in mumbojumbo or expect miracles overnight. Houses are built a brick (workout) at a time, and it's possible to kill the bricklayer with too much too soon.
Like Mor said; you didn't get fat last week. Peace/out. </div>

Thanks quad. The going slow and trying to maintain muscle mass was my original approach, but obviously I've been basing some (most?) of my thinking on fallacies. I really appreciate the advice. I'm not understanding all of the attitude that I'm getting, but I think that when you first start off in something, you don't even know enough to know that you know nothing. Does that sentence make your head hurt?
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This may be why some posters seem so exasperated with me. I've done a lot of reading on the net, but there is so much conflicting stuff out there. I can read 50 articles on weight loss and they all say 50 different things.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The most extreme way you can go is...Auschwitz, umm, no, wait that didn`t produce ripped guys...yes, I know now, a PSMF=Protein Sparing Modified Fast. Get Lyle`s Rapid Fatloss Handbook, do that and you`ll be on cloud nine, it`s right up your alley. Or be cheap and look for PSMF on his forum. Or on the web. Or anywhere. You`ll lose weight fast whilst maintaining mass to a satisfactory extent. Drop the learning for now, get a book that handguides you, because otherwise you seem to cling to the most irrelevant crap and come up with the most contorted solutions possible. Probably at some point you`ll regain reason and self confidence and you`ll see that you can actually think in a rational way and approach this with patience and the will to learn what`s right and unlearn silly things from the past. In the meanwhile, by following a very regimented plan you`ll also drop a lot of fat and will probably be a lot happier. I feel this is a good compromise, all things being considered.</div>

Morgoth, thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I have a lot of studying to do. Obviously, I've taken in a lot of BS over the years. I'll get the book.

I'm not trying to be a troll, but I am a big smart ass (no pun intended).
 
I don't blame you. As I recall, Lyle McDonald's articles had some pretty scalding info in there, regarding all the diet &quot;guru's&quot; out there and how for all the difference in their packaging, all actual results came down to the exact same principles.
I did a search once on diet aids and a list came up of those sold in America. There were literally about 1200 if I remember right. No way on earth do all those work either. I didn't think you were a troll because of things I've heard from fat people trying to lose weight.
What some people will do to make money...sheesh!
 
Ive been using the navy circumference method for some time now because its easy and I dont have calipers. I thought about getting a bio electric impedance scale but I've heard they are junk. The YMCA tested me at 18% once which I know was not even close. Should have been closer to 12 as I had somewhat of a 6pack.

I think Navy method is accurate but not very precise. So when I look at my month to month lbm versus total weight fluctuations I see unrealistic variations of 1-3 lbs up and down.

The best fit line of my readings makes sense though. I do it everymonth. I am going to go in for hydrostatic weighting sometime this year and then well know exactly how accurate the Navy Method has been.
 
The navy method is good for ppl that fall into the category the navy used to derive their equations from...which means not overly fat/big bber type of dudes. If you`re a likely candidate for the marines or whatever, it`ll work great for you, if you have just about zilch in common with a typical candidate for enlistment it`s useless. So for him it`s kindof useless.
 
OK, I've read the book. Morgoth, I owe you big for helping me on this.

I'm going to go with Lyle's BMI table just to be safe. This puts me at about 200 lbs LBM. That means I get 800 calories per day (1 gram protein per pound of body weight because I am in cat 3 and lift weights and do aerobics).

This is very simple to figure out.

I know that Lyle recommends whole food, but I read about a guy who did very well with casein shakes. I'm going to go with a combination of both. Scrambled egg whites with spinach and habanero sauce for breakfast, protein shake for early lunch (or brunch ~11:00 AM), another protein shake for late lunch (or early dinner, ~2:30 PM), and some kind of lean protein and veggie combo for dinner. This simplifies what I have to take to work, and I think for fat people, reducing any obsession with food can only be a good thing.

My workout plan will consist of M/W/F doing HST and T/Th/Sat doing 30 minutes of walking at ~65% max heart rate in a fasted state (i.e. before breakfast).

I've had pretty good success with my previous setup. However, its been two months, and weight loss has slowed quite a bit. I realize now that incorporating breaks every 12 weeks are a necessity and I love the idea of having a couple pieces of supreme pizza with a salad or some hot wings with celery sticks a couple times a week.

I'm ready to hit this hard starting first thing tomorrow (er. it technically is tomorrow, and very well into tomorrow at that, I need to hit the hay, but my tomorrow will start after I wake up).

Today, we went to the Grotto of the Redemption in West Bend (IA). Its several grottos made from all different kinds of semiprecious and plain stone. It was started by Father Paul Dobberstein in the 1920's. Pretty cool. I went with my wife and kids and my Mom. We had a great time, I didn't worry about working out or diet for well over 5 hours, and I enjoyed a great picnic lunch (turkey breast sandwiches on white buns with butter, homemade potato salad, homemade cucumber/tomato/onion salad with an olive oil and red wine vinegrette, and some Belgian Dark Chocalate for desert).

I'm looking forward to this next phase of dieting (and hopefully a better sense of sanity about the whole thing) and I'm scheduling out my free meals and breaks on a special calendar tomorrow.

Again, I wanted to thank especially Morgoth, but also Quad, Totentanz, and everyone else for the feedback and words of encouragement.

When I get down to 300, I will post my before and after photos.

If you guys don't mind, I'd also like to update this thread weekly or so to brag about my progress.
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