Progressive Overload and Strength gains:Example.

Discussion in 'General Training' started by thegentleman1981, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Hi gentleman,

    I thought to ask this question not in my log but in the forum so its more public to read because I think thats an interesting point:

    Were is the difference of increasing the weight when you got stronger compared to increasing the weight on its own?

    Example 1:
    Benching 1x8 with 100kg. Next time I feel stronger and I am able to bench 105kg for 1x8. A PR and progressive overload.

    Example 2:
    Benching 1x8 with 100kg. Next time I also want to apply progressive overload but get: 105x5 and 105x3.
    I was able to get the total 8 reps in two sets with more weight but its no PR.

    Were is the difference here in regard to muscle building and strength gains? What does this different results tell us?

  2. CDB

    CDB New Member

    Honestly I don't think there is much difference, or not much that can be detected in the studies on the issue, which is why clustering is one of the recommended approaches.
  3. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    I think there can be 2 possibilites:

    1.The body adapted to the weight (RBE) and you need to increase the load further for further adaption
    2. The body has exhausted his capabilities and you need to SD/Deload.
  4. Sci

    Sci Well-Known Member

    The difference is in the example where you go up to 105 and get all the reps, then it's time to go up again next workout.
    If in the second example, you have break your set to get all the reps in, it means you should stay with the same load next workout.
  5. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    TG, couple of Q's for you:

    Assuming a calorie surplus etc., of the following two scenarios (loading shown for 5 workouts), which one will elicit the greatest hypertrophic response and how might strength be affected?

    1) 8ME x 105kg; 6ME,2 x 107.5kg; 5ME,3 x 110kg; 4ME,3ME,1 x 112.5kg; 3ME,3ME,2 x 115kg

    1) 5,3 x 105kg; 5,3 x 107.5kg; 5ME,3 x 110kg; 3,3ME,2 x 112.5kg; 3ME,2,2,1 x 115kg

    ME=Max Effort
  6. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Ah, a quiz-nice idea=).

    I would say it depends whether the MEs recruit the highest Mus which have the greatest capacity for growth and strength development.

    If its true, that these last reps after a certain threshold are all equally effective (6RPM) Hypertrophy wise with hst theory in mind it should not make any difference because the tissue in both examples are loaded for the same total reps and weight.
    They same should be true for strength if the mentioned assumption is right.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2013
  7. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Question Back:

    1. 2x12 with 100kg
    2. 150x4 + 90x20

    Workload and volume is exactly the same.

    HYpertrophy,strength response?

    Much depends on the philosophy how the question gets answered:
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2013
  8. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Keep lifting heavy weights and eating enough. It's that simple. These theoretical differences are arguably non-existent for someone in your condition.

    Whichever lifting scheme enables you to increase the load further before your strength gains stop is going to be better. Obviously moving 105x5 and 105x3 is easier than lifting 105x8.

    Your 5RM and 8RM are different weights and being able to lift 105 for 5 reps will come before lifting 105 for 8 reps.

    Further, you haven't even partially answered Lol's question. You've responded, but not answered. Re-read it and try to answer the question rather than discuss the theory (and that's all it is, theory). Pragmatic application is more important than scientific explanation at this stage.
  9. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Hi Alex. The answer of a question always depends on the theory/philosophy the responder is following.
    HST is also only a theory which is based on scientifical evidence. The theory will hold as long, as long as it is not falsified.

    When you will answer this question, your answer will be also based on "your" theory you made on your own. Based on the hst research (I assume) and your own personal experiences. Its your sight,your (implicit) theory of how things work.

    I have answered the question and as you see,there is seldom a "black" or "white" answer to things. As many would say: "It depends".
  10. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Ah. i thought in HST you should make weight jumps INDEPENDENTLY of strength increases and this quite fast because of the RBE.
  11. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    NO, there IS a black and white answer. Qualifying your choice of the two strategies with a condition is fine. However, one, and only one, of the two choices presented by Lol, will produce more hypertrophy than the other.

    So which is your choice?

    "Assuming a calorie surplus etc., of the following two scenarios (loading shown for 5 workouts), which one will elicit the greatest hypertrophic response and how might strength be affected?

    1) 8ME x 105kg; 6ME,2 x 107.5kg; 5ME,3 x 110kg; 4ME,3ME,1 x 112.5kg; 3ME,3ME,2 x 115kg


    2) 5,3 x 105kg; 5,3 x 107.5kg; 5ME,3 x 110kg; 3,3ME,2 x 112.5kg; 3ME,2,2,1 x 115kg

    ME=Max Effort"

    There's nothing to be afraid of, no one will blast you if your choice is incorrect.
  12. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Regarding the strength gains I would have said example 1 and I will vote for more mass gains in example 1 too.
  13. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Why? Youre getting damn near full recruitment with almost every rep with those loads.
  14. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Thats was what I have written in my first response. If the assumption is right,that with these loads you are recruiting (nearly) all fibers,than strength and mass gains in both examples will be equal.

    But ALex has said, that only one choice is correct. So lets ask him.
  15. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Haha! I never expected an "in-depth" discussion about this! :)

    *I meant that to be a 2 in the original post!

    I guess all I was trying to show was that you can accomplish the same thing, to all intents and purposes, in different ways. There may be slight benefits in strength gained from doing 1) but it's unlikely to be dramatic and unlikely to show itself until some of the extra fatigue accumulated through more ME sets has been allowed to dissipate.

    In 2), you may well be able to continue the cycle for longer than in 1) by staying away from doing as many ME sets through clustering. Maybe not though. Depends on how conditioned you are to this type of training. More likely, once the loads are up there, you will start to get small injuries and aching joints if your frequency is high enough and that will get you wanting/needing to back-off or SD.

    Alex may be right, there may be a benefit in hypertrophy in one of the above scenarios over the other. I think it would be difficult to prove. 5 workouts is barely enough time for anything much to happen. This was merely a trivial example of how you can over-analyse stuff but it is a reasonably good example of how you can accomplish pretty much the same thing in different way. Much better to get your a$$ in the gym regularly and train to a plan and see how you get on with it. Much better to do 1) OR 2) than to do nothing. :)
  16. Sci

    Sci Well-Known Member

    Exactly, so the difference between the two examples is very small, but they do clearly show definite temporary strength differences, at least. There are probably not any anabolic response differences, if any, they are so miniscule, it is not worth worrying about.
  17. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    The point isn't to determine which is correct, it's to make a choice and as Lol has said, spend less time discussing and analysing differences in details that have minimal value. Opportunity cost is v.real in the world of lifting.
  18. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Ah you punked me;)
  19. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Not at all. I'm trying to illustrate that there are diminishing returns to endless discussions and hypothesising. At a certain point, you need to elect to *do* one of the many options, based on your knowledge and back that up with conviction. IF it doesn't work, then you're better prepared for the next cycle. If it does, fantastic, stick with it and don't overthink things or try and 'adjust' too much.

    I often feel that lifters in general are not mentally prepared for a program that works. They always believe that they can improve by 'tweaking', simply because 'tweaking' is possible, when there's not really any empirical data to suggest that.
  20. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Got it. thanks and thank you lol for your example.

Share This Page